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1Back to top Go down    Realm Engineering HT leads on Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:24 am

Snod Blatter

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Hi all,

I'm pretty sure I'm in the market for some new HT leads since #1 and #2 plug caps are full of white and green powder. I see RAM are selling kits at a semi reasonable price but I can't for the life of me find if they have resistance built into them or not? Anyone know? I can of course phone them up to ask but not at the weekend..

I also see some of you have had these fitted for a while, Dai I'm looking at you in particular! Any problems? All marvellous? Do tell  

They're also offering 10mm diameter leads for racing. Blimmin' RACING. In blue! I know it's stupid but the idea of big bore spark pipes is strangely compelling.. Shame they're £15 more. But what if.. (o)


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v  VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

2Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:30 am

charlie99

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they design the right things for our bikes

don't hesitate


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

3Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:33 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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I ordered a set of these leads too, they seem very efficient to deal with....


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Baja Red bought 36,000 now 87,100 miles
1997 K1100LT 58,000 miles
    

4Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:21 am

RicK G

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I just received a RAM SHOX from them and had quite a bit of trouble getting it delivered and Adrian really put himself out to get it to me.


__________________________________________________
If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

5Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:03 pm

Ringfad

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I have a red colored set in my K1100 and they seem to work very well.

I have just ordered another set in black for my K1 as the old leads are very corroded.

The K1 already has a Ram rear shock and front springs Very Happy

They do both types of leads (resistor for 16v and non-resistor for 8v) and are available on ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-K100-ht-ignition-leads-/192114321425?hash=item2cbae7e811:g:ydMAAOSw6wRXAOxw


__________________________________________________


   ;BMW; K100RS Style Black 1987 101K Km     ;BMW; K1 Black 1993 50K Km     ;BMW; K1100RS Red 1993 60k miles  ;BMW; K100 16V Black (ex ElectricMonk)
    

6Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:49 pm

Snod Blatter

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Yes I've seen them on ebay but they don't say if they're suppressed or not.. I have half a plan to collect some in person though, if they allow that. They're not a million miles away and a nice old Roman road will take me most of the way there, would be a nice day out. I have next week off work with no plans.. Just thought I'd find out anything I can from people here first Cool


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v  VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

7Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:56 pm

Dai

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I had one fail - faulty manufacture (Realm don't make the leads themselves) but it was sent back and replaced within a few days with no argument. Otherwise, I've never had any trouble with them.


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

8Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:15 am

Snod Blatter

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I phoned Realm yesterday and asked about the suppression, I was promptly laughed at and told that they've been selling these leads for years and no one ever has a problem so clearly they work. I know they work, that's not the question.. Anyway, apparently he gets asked this about once a year. There are no real alternatives to these leads other than Magnecor and they seem to lump all 8v and 16v K100s together (83-95??) so I don't trust them. So off I go down to Realm to get myself a set and put this to bed once and for all. The resistances are:

#1 - 3.04kΩ
#2 - 2.34kΩ
#3 - 2.22kΩ
#4 - 1.44kΩ

Clearly the resistance is down to the length of the lead, but it is what it is.. Should we be using resistive plugs with these or not? I don't know. Not that I'm going to change the D7EAs that have only just gone in there!


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v  VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

9Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:02 am

BobT

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I don't suppose that it matters at all if you use resistive plugs or not. The energy for the spark is developed by the coils and that energy will jump a gap at the plug. If too much resistance would make more than 1% difference to the spark then I would eat my hat. That lost energy would have to be turned into heat energy and any significant amount would start melting things.
A spark with 99% or 100% of the coil output is still going to ignite the fuel air mixture which contains the energy to power the bike.

    

10Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:11 am

RicK G

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Looks like you better put some BBQ sauce on that hat Bob because it can make quite a difference.
The load and source impedance must be close to the same or you can get big build up of heat and a much lower current which is just as important if not more so than really high voltages to get what is referred to as a big fat spark.
I thought someone conversant with aircraft would have very good knowledge  about magnetos and spark and current V voltage in a circuit which has rapidly changing values.


__________________________________________________
If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

11Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:22 am

Snod Blatter

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Rick, for those of us who are hard of understanding, are you suggesting that this is a Bad Thing? Not that my old originals will be in spec anyway..


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v  VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

12Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:35 am

Point-Seven-five

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Check out NGK plug wires.  They have resistor wires for the bricks at a reasonable price.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1994 K75S
1992 K100RS

Past:
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

13Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:52 am

Snod Blatter

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I can't find any of those, .75, and NGK's part finder doesn't know they exist. But interestingly their part finder did recommend D8EA plugs (which I immediately suspected after seeing the D7EAs were slightly shorter than the original Bosch plugs) and their blurb on plug wires reckons their own wires are a mere 8kΩ per metre while most are 16kΩ. Given the length of mine I guess they are around 16kΩ a metre, so perhaps we should indeed be using resistive plugs if this lead resistance is normal.

I also see the twist on nipple things can be resistive, and a new set of four are supplied with this Realm kit. But they are 0.7Ω, so they are not the key.


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v  VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

14Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:01 am

RicK G

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Snod Blatter wrote:Rick, for those of us who are hard of understanding, are you suggesting that this is a Bad Thing? Not that my old originals will be in spec anyway..
I would say not recommended. If it didn't matter the manufacturers would just make the same leads for everything regardless of plugs or coils.
Usually the system will cope with a mismatch in impedance but it will shorten the life of coils and plugs and quite possible in a bad mismatch to actually cook the ICU output transistors due to heat build up.
Realm have a set of leads for each type of K so it is easy to get the right ones. Silicone leads are usually good when it comes to RF interference and don't cause problems.


__________________________________________________
If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

15Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:06 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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All I can remember on this is that the 8 valve engines use resistor leads and non resistor plugs [D7EA/D8EA] and the 16 valve uses non resistor leads and resistor plugs [DR7EA/DR8EA].

I know that because someone on the forum reminded me.

But....my 8 valve K100LT did work with resistor plugs and I never noticed. It came with resistor plugs in it when I got it.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Baja Red bought 36,000 now 87,100 miles
1997 K1100LT 58,000 miles
    

16Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:21 am

Snod Blatter

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RicK G wrote:Realm have a set of leads for each type of K so it is easy to get the right ones.
I think we can be pretty sure that Realm don't have any leads that are actually the "right ones", they just have some made up that are the correct length and fit what they need to fit at both ends. People have lived with them and not died, so as long as my bike fires up fine with them then I'll keep them. Plus they're red Laughing

But! After this apparent revelation, might it be prudent to recommend the EnDuraLast kit to people instead? Or is that too high resistance? What a minefield. Plus it sounds like a product from Durex. Or perhaps recommend the Realm kit with resistive plugs? Argh!

EDIT: Our very own dark lord "Crazy Frog" has also suggested that big ICU trouble can be caused by too little resistance. Uh oh?


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v  VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

17Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:31 pm

indian036

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One of the tricky things about this is the use of the term "resistance". This generally refers to current restriction in a steady current DC situation.
When it comes to a varying current and voltage situation, other things come into play. This applies whether it is a regular change such as the 50Hz sine wave from a wall socket, the wild variations of an audio signal from the stereo or a pulsing situation from an ignition system.

In this case the correct term is impedance, though confusingly, it uses the same units, the Ohm. (Ω) Impedance is a combination of resistance, capacitance and inductance, though not a simple sum. To add to the confusion, impedance changes with the frequency of the varying current! This gets even weirder the more the changing current varies from a sine wave.

When we check a plug lead with a multimeter, we are measuring resistance, not impedance. However, it is satisfactory for checking whether something is way out of whack. As people have found, resistance generally increases with the lead's length. If one lead's resistance is strange compared to others and their lengths, it needs replacing. I'd replace the lot in case another one is going to go strange soon.

As Rick G says, an impedance balance between the source (coil) and the load (spark plug and leads) is essential for maximum energy transfer. The coil will always have an impedance because it is just that - a coil of wire which has inherent inductance, some resistance but little capacitance. The trick is to have a matching amount in the plug/lead combination. Pretty much universally, its either impedance in the lead and not the plug, or in the plug and not the lead.
If you have impedance in neither or both, it won't match the impedance of the coil.

Will this cause a problem?
In the short term, usually not. Longer term, it can, as Rick says, lead to coil failure. Not cheap on our toys!
With the less-than-optimum power transfer, as components deteriorate with age and use, the spark may not be as strong as desired, leading to misfires and less efficient combustion. 

Conclusion: Follow the manufacturer's recommendation of lead and plug "resistance". They've worked out what works best for the correct impedance, which in the situation in question, we can't easily measure with normal equipment such as a multimeter. They've also worked it out for the frequencies that will apply in the circumstances.

In an emergency, to get home, don't worry about a short term mismatch, but don't think that because it seems alright it will stay that way long term.

Bill


__________________________________________________
1985 K100RT Red.  VIN 0028991K100RT    ENG 104EA248523386
1985 K100RT Blue. VIN 0029036K100RT    ENG 104EA25852071
1990 K100LT Black. VIN WB105060310190452
1984 K100RT White. VIN. 0023022K100RT  ENG 104EA32848523
    

18Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:48 pm

Snod Blatter

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...

scratch

H'okay, so we can't actually measure what is important. But when the OE leads are reading 5-6kΩ, we should try and match it with resistive plugs if we use "straight through" leads and caps? This seems to be what is being recommended. Which is a bit of a bugger as these D7EAs have seen less than 4000 miles..

Thanks all, this has been a top thread so far.


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v  VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

19Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:18 pm

nods

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Great stuff, thanks Bill.

This topic hasn't been clear to me for a while. I think I've seen reports the OEM 8v non-resistor plugs are hard to come by, but the resistor plugs can be found easily, so maybe a swap over of leads and plugs is in order.

I'll have to go back and read my previous research.

Thanks all!


__________________________________________________
Chassis number0025951
Vehicle code0504
SeriesK589
ModelK 100 RT 84 (0504 ( 0505 )
Body typeK 100 RT 84 (0504
Catalog modelECE
Production date1985 / 01
Engine0514)
Transmission
Steering
CatalyzerNONE
    

20Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:41 pm

indian036

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nods wrote:Great stuff, thanks Bill.

This topic hasn't been clear to me for a while. I think I've seen reports the OEM 8v non-resistor plugs are hard to come by, but the resistor plugs can be found easily, so maybe a swap over of leads and plugs is in order.

I'll have to go back and read my previous research.

Thanks all!
I don't know about other places, but in Oz the D7EA isn't common in retails stores, but any decent parts place will be able to order them for you, and delivery is usually pretty quick unless you are seriously in the sticks. (DR7EA, the resistor one, is more common.)
Don't forget, though, that they usually come without the screw on nipples on the end, so keep your old ones or ask your supplier to get some. They can if they ask. Leaving them off results in deterioration of the plug cap of the plug lead.

Bill


__________________________________________________
1985 K100RT Red.  VIN 0028991K100RT    ENG 104EA248523386
1985 K100RT Blue. VIN 0029036K100RT    ENG 104EA25852071
1990 K100LT Black. VIN WB105060310190452
1984 K100RT White. VIN. 0023022K100RT  ENG 104EA32848523
    

21Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:22 am

charlie99

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heres something to confuse the matter even more still

the coils on the primarys of the 16 valve models are particularly low in value ...demanding more coil primary current...an a very much higher turns ration of primary to secondary output ..those output switching devices run red hot all the time  because of the current requirements

this in itself is not too bad ...but a (for me) very concerning option for producing an more aggressive spark at first strike of the ignition process

what happens with this low input resistance- higher current  (impedance at frequency  ) is a fatter spark ....but the coils are susceptible to back emfs (voltages )more markedly if the resistance - impedance is  terminated incorrectly   ..call it reflections ..for want of a better word .
these reflections can produce an extremely high pulse back to the ignition ecu ...and may weaken - break the silicon junction of the switching device inside the ecu ...
the general rule of thumb  for collapsing dc fields ( in coils ) IS THAT THE SPIKE REFLECTED AS IT TURNS OFF COULD BE 10 - 100 TIMES THE APPLIED VOLTAGE ..  in many cases  if things are right , more likely 10 times ...so we apply 12 volts for a split second and the resulting reflected spike to the efi computer could be as little as 120 volts ...but often more than that    for many reasons
and far more noticeable with a lower primary coil count (resistance ) as in the 16 valve ..motronic type ignition coils systems

on 8 valve machines the older coils with higher impedance (and lower coils ration ) don't receive this issue far too often unless we do something stupid ...like letting the plugs short out ...through poor connections , cable breakdown ..plugs without ferules fitted and the list goes on ...but for our European mates etc with very wet conditions throughout the riding seasons  the extra arcing events can cause break over of the secondary coils within the coilpack  resulting in (when measured ) possibly an open circuit .....funny enough that still works ...well sort of ...as the high voltage will jump the very small gap that has been etched across the coils within the coils tower  this however may crack the epoxy of the coil over time

heres the deal 
on 8 valve models
1> for those that use solid copper cables  the measurement along the copper cable is only a few ohms ... for those that use copper cables ..they need ngk type resistance plug tops  measuring about 5 k  (5000 ohms ) in addition to  cable actual resistance .

2> for those that know what they are looking for  and use magawire type leads ( a very thin and long resistance wire wrapped around a silicone core ) the expected resistance along the cable is a few thousand ohms per half meter (this one of the best ignition leads available - as it doesn't fracture along its length because it is a wound conductor with stress relief ) these leads  do not need a resistive plug top ...because of the resistance along the cable ...they have a higher  than copper reactance only because of the nature of the cable construction

3> standard production silicon leads ..these measure about 2000 ohms  (around about per 1/2 meter )  they are flexible but do not suffer stretching well and will often break down at the bends and crimp connections at the plug tops and coil top  mechanically and electrically   but commonly found and useful indeed for the right price  and they  have very low inductive ..reactance ) but you have to be careful handling these things when removing ..installing is a breeze .

so for k100 8 valve ...ngk d7ea  ...if you follow the above recommendations ...don't forget that many of these products were just not available at time of design

for 16 valve models with the motronic ignition systems with the very low impedance coils ...they need extra resistance ..and the best way is with resistive plugs as well as resistive leads because they develop a higher peak spark energy in voltage terms ..but a weaker spark energy in current terms so dr7ea might be the best deal  

its all about the loading of the plug wires .coil to spark gap ...of too low an impedance (resistance ) the returned spark energy from the ignition ringing  will reflect back to the coils and primarys creating an extremely high voltage at the ignition computer ...different results could be expected indeed .

remember that carbon resistance in the plugs carries no reactance at all  so does not add to the reflected spikes to the coil ,but acts as a current limit only ...funnily there was a concerted effort back in the early 90s to decrease the radiated spark energy into the radio receiving spectrum ..call it rf noise ..and resistive spark plugs became the flavour of the month type thing , knowing this, designers went for higher voltages rather than higher currents in the secondary spark and noise production designs

I hope that help a little bit ...not saying this is gospel but makes the perfect sense to me








for those that use
the


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

22Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:33 pm

Snod Blatter

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That's right, me again..

So these are proper boring..


And, as it turns out, have been arcing on to the plugs and actually eroding bits of the ferrules! I was in the market even more than I knew.


Ah there we go, racing leads. Bit strange that the coil connectors are naturally pointing downwards though, this means the leads are constantly twisted 180 degrees when connected. Also..




I'm not sure if it's clear in the pictures but these leads are miles too long. I know I could turn the caps on the plugs around to face the wrong way but they're so soft and rubbery I feel like I'll be massively stressing whatever connection is inside there. So I've had to try and tuck the leads into the space between the coils and the engine block. Ridiculous! And no way to fit the lead separators, it's all so scrunched up and boingy that there's no space.. I'm really unimpressed with these.

But! What I am actually impressed with is what a difference new leads has made. I feel like I've gained about 5 degrees of advance, there's loads more urgency at bottom and mid range, the tickover is slightly higher/stronger, gear changes are smoother, and I'll be surprised if this doesn't give a decent boost to economy too. Proper sparks are wonderful. But if I were to do it again, I'd make the leads myself out of NGK caps, maybe some of these (if they're correct) and a length of lead. At least then they could be cut to fit.

Has anyone else found these are really long? I do hope they won't melt on the engine..


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v  VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

23Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:08 pm

blaKey

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Nice work there Mr Blatter.

For what it's worth, here is a photo of the leads on my bike (apparently fitted from the factory like this)




Oh, I should add, I've got a set of the red Realm leads on my bike now. Marvellous stuff!



Last edited by blaKey on Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:10 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : afterthought)


__________________________________________________
Neil
K100RS 1986 RED!
K100RT 1987 (now nekkid with red bits)

Remember Rule No. 6
    

24Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:12 am

Laitch

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Snod Blatter wrote:I know I could turn the caps on the plugs around to face the wrong way but they're so soft and rubbery I feel like I'll be massively stressing whatever connection is inside there. 

Has anyone else found these are really long? I do hope they won't melt on the engine..
I see nothing wrong with reversing the caps or making turns in the leads that are not tight turns. It just takes selecting the appropriate length lead for each plug and the best place to turn it back. Copying the style done in blakey's photo can work. The location and number of wires needing the turn might differ.


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1995 K75T 60,000 miles
    

25Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:23 am

Snod Blatter

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Thinking about it, perhaps I can use the cable separators to take some of the strain off the connectors if I do turn them around.

People who have these fitted - did you not find they were too long? It can't just be me..


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v  VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

26Back to top Go down    Re: Realm Engineering HT leads on Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:03 am

Dai

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I just twisted the b*ggers round, like Blakeys.


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

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