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TIV

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I´m having trouble with my starter. It keeps running until I disconnect the battery. I´m not the first and not the last K owner to have this problem.

I had this problem after I bought my K in 2009. At the time I bought a new relay and new battery. Until now everything has been alright.

The first time I started the bike this spring it kept on starting. I tried to switch off the ignition, rip the key out, use the kill switch, but it kept on starting until I managed to disconnect the battery ground by undoing the ground screw on the gearbox as fast as I could! When I had managed to disconnected the ground, the cable and the ground screw had become boiling hot and the battery was boiling and smoking! (Lead-acid battery).

I installed a new battery and a new Bosch starter relay. Everything worked fine for the first time I started up the bike few days ago. I thougt I had the problem fixed, but this morning I started up the bike and the same shit happened again! How frustrating can it be? Fortunately I had the right Allen key handy this time and quickly disconnected the battery. Hope it was not damaged!

The new battery is a dry type Exide 30AH battery (12V 30Ah 385 Cold Cranking Amps).

I have been looking at old threads in this Forum and others about this problem. Lots of good information, but haven't yet found a good systematic approach on how to isolate the problem. Could it be that the Load Shed Relay is to blame?



Last edited by TIV on Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling error)


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1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

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Laitch

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TI wrote:
The new battery is a dry type Exide 30AH battery (12V 30Ah 385 Cold Cranking Amps).
Good thinking to have that allen wrench ready.

What is the battery's voltage output right now?


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Peterk100rs

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TIV wrote:I´m having trouble with my starter. It keeps running until I disconnect the battery. I´m not the first and not the last K owner to have this problem.

I had this problem after I bought my K in 2009. At the time I bought a new relay and new battery. Until now everything has been alright.

The first time I started the bike this spring it kept on starting. I tried to switch off the ignition, rip the key out, use the kill switch, but it kept on starting until I managed to disconnect the battery ground by undoing the ground screw on the gearbox as fast as I could! When I had managed to disconnected the ground, the cable and the ground screw had become boiling hot and the battery was boiling and smoking! (Lead-acid battery).

I installed a new battery and a new Bosch starter relay. Everything worked fine for the first time I started up the bike few days ago. I thougt I had the problem fixed, but this morning I started up the bike and the same shit happened again! How frustrating can it be? Fortunately I had the right Allen key handy this time and quickly disconnected the battery. Hope it was not damaged!

The new battery is a dry type Exide 30AH battery (12V 30Ah 385 Cold Cranking Amps).

I have been looking at old threads in this Forum and others about this problem. Lots of good information, but haven't yet found a good systematic approach on how to isolate the problem. Could it be that the Load Shed Relay is to blame?
Funny I just bought a 1989 k75 a few days ago and this was the problem with it at the shop . I had read on another forum that a low battery can cause a high current draw causing the starter relay to stick . So sure enough battery was done and the relay contacts were stuck together. I was able to open the relay and separate the contacts and give them a light sanding . Bike has started every time since no problems.So I wonder if the cabling from battery is an issue ,as in are you having a voltage going elsewhere thus causing the really to stick ? maybe work measuring the voltage at relay contacts and at battery to see if there is a big drop .

    

TIV

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Laitch wrote:
TI wrote:
The new battery is a dry type Exide 30AH battery (12V 30Ah 385 Cold Cranking Amps).
Good thinking to have that allen wrench ready.

What is the battery's voltage output right now?

This morning after I disconnected the ground cable as fast ast I could (and cooled myself down for few minutes) I measured the battery voltage. My Fluke read 12,25 Volts. I left the battery disconnected and put my charger (CTEK 0,8 A) on it. Ten hours later when I checked, the charger showed fully charged battery and I measured the voltage at 13,30 Volts.

One possibility came to mind this evening....... Usually, when I connect batteries I cover battery poles, ground and other connections with dielectric grease or non-conductive vaseline AFTER I have connected everything. When I put the new battery in this time, I think I forgot to clean off the grease, as I should have done before I connected everything. When you think about it, there must be a thin film of non-conductive grease between every connection on the battery poles and ground points! Could this affect the performance of the battery?

Edited: The more I think about this the more likely it seems. One of the things I did this winter was to remove the gearbox and in order to do that I had to disconnect and take out the old battery. This problem was not in the bike when I parked it for the winter. The only part of the electrics I have touched this winter are the cables around the battery. Shocked



Last edited by TIV on Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:33 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Addition)


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1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

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RicK G

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Low battery voltage is the common cause. Because the battery is low it can't turn the starter motor fast enough and that causes high current drain which in turn welds the relay contacts.
A good battery with low voltage will do it very quickly.  Having some Vaseline on the battery poles usually wont have any effect in that regard.  Use a points file to clean the relay contacts, don't use emery paper as that embeds fine grit in the contact and causes degradation of the contacts.
The battery was 12.25v which to me says about 1/2 charged and should read 12.6 when fully charged or even 12.8 so that is probably the cause.  The 13.3 v reading is when just removed from the charger so let it sit for a few hours before checking again, it will probably settle to 12.6v.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

AL-58

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The problem is obvious, but the cause might not be obvious.

1) Check the battery voltage with the motor running, if the battery is not being fully charged this is the cause of the low voltage which is then causing the relay to stick shut.  My RT had an alternator that while it was charging it only barely kept up with requirements and didnt keep the battery anywhere near fully charged.

2) Would a dirty starter have higher current draw again causing the relay to overheat and weld the points closed?

Al


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'87 K100RS/HRD sidecar (1100 motor)  sc25 
'92 K100RS-16v (Paint it Black)

'87 K100RT with Paralever backend

"When I'm too old and too foolish to handle a sidecar I'll buy a Sportsbike"

    

Holister

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12.25V is a bit low as Rick says but if that was after a drain such as continuous starter it's no problem. The battery can get down to 10.something volts and recover quite ok to above 12.45V. This ability is actually a measure of the battery's condition.

The vaseline could be creating a problem but I'm thinking its not likely. Measure the voltage somewhere else other than at the terminals to determine.
I had this starter relay problem early last year on my naked K100 and got into the habit of carrying an allen key around in my pocket. After a thorough investigation I couldn't find the cause except I kept changing the starter relay. I had cleaned up the old relay. It worked for a while. I installed a brand new relay. It worked for a while. I then installed another secondhand relay which has been working ever since. Thru this whole issue I had checked wiring back to the start/kill switches. Checked the LSR. Went over all my earth connections. Checked and cleaned the starter motor. Checked and cleaned the VR. Motobatt battery was in good condition giving around 12.90V static voltage. Alternator was outputing 13.90V.

The third relay did the trick. The original relay was quite cactus and I think I was just unlucky to buy a dud with the second.

The current replacement relays are made by Tyco who bought the Bosch factory in Spain. They have a different shunt circuit in them to the old original Bosch relays which suppresses high current peaks at initial contact.

The starter relay actually has 2 sets of contacts. One set is smaller and closer together. They contact first. Its designed to take the initial shock of high current arcing while the second set closes to take the load of current during startup. This is designed to preserve the load contacts. My old relay worked for quite a while with the smaller first contacts totally blown away. But my guess is that if the smaller initial contacts aren't set right in the first place at the factory or there's some crud in there hindering connectivity, then the initial arc load transfers to the second set of contacts and they don't last long. This can be exacerbated by low battery voltage which creates higher current during high load startup. Point-seven-five has a good explanation of what happens in this scenario in a post somewhere here on the forum.

Just my thoughts. Hope it helps. Cheers


__________________________________________________
1988 K100RT     VIN No.  0094680
1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
     Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

TIV

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I´m going to go over everything systematically. The battery is new, The starter relay is new (could have been damaged in this last nightmare though).

I certainly would like to install a switch or some way to quickly disconnect the battery while I´m at it.

Has enyone seen or tried this (Made in China)? Auto Kill Switch


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1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

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Holister

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A trick I used when this happened was to hit the starter button and start the motor back up. I checked with a DMM and found that while the motor is running there was no power to the starter. You can then simply disconnect the GB earth without pannick while the bike idles away.


__________________________________________________
1988 K100RT     VIN No.  0094680
1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
     Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

TIV

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Holister wrote:A trick I used when this happened was to hit the starter button and start the motor back up. I checked with a DMM and found that while the motor is running there was no power to the starter. You can then simply disconnect the GB earth without pannick while the bike idles away.

Now, this is a great advice Holister! I thought the starter would spin along with the motor! Thanks.

I now have a fully charged battery and tonight I cleaned and reconnected all cables to the battery. The problem persists. As soon as I touch the gearbox ground screw with the ground cable the starter spins. So, tomorrow I will lift the tank and take a look at the starter relay.


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1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

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kioolt

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if the starter relay is truly stuck there would be no need to hit the start button for the engine to start.  Just turn the key on.  Also, if the starter relay is truly stuck, restarting the engine should have no effect.


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2004 R1150RT 178,100 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 413,700 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


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k-rider

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kioolt wrote:if the starter relay is truly stuck there would be no need to hit the start button for the engine to start.  Just turn the key on.  Also, if the starter relay is truly stuck, restarting the engine should have no effect.
Restarting the engine wild turn of the starter, it an Electronic feature, When the engine revs over 711 rpm,the starter get No power 
But this, as hollister said, gives You time to remove the ground cable, without haven the starter emptying the battery, offcourse this wont free up the realay. 

K-rider


Holister

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kioolt wrote:if the starter relay is truly stuck there would be no need to hit the start button for the engine to start.  Just turn the key on.  Also, if the starter relay is truly stuck, restarting the engine should have no effect.
You're right kioolt. Not the starter button. Turn the ignition back on. Its been a year since this happened to me and my memory failed.


__________________________________________________
1988 K100RT     VIN No.  0094680
1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
     Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

kioolt

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If the starter relay is stuck the electronic feature will not work because the starter relay is stuck and that is what the electronic feature turns off.


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2004 R1150RT 178,100 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 413,700 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

RicK G

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kioolt wrote:If the starter relay is stuck the electronic feature will not work because the starter relay is stuck and that is what the electronic feature turns off.
+1 but it will only free run which is a lot easier on the battery.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

Holister

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This makes sense but back then I'm sure I checked for power at the starter motor and found none while the engine was running. I'll put it down to brain fade.  scratch


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1988 K100RT     VIN No.  0094680
1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
     Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

kioolt

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Holister wrote:This makes sense but back then I'm sure I checked for power at the starter motor and found none while the engine was running. I'll put it down to brain fade.  scratch
It's possible that your starter relay may have unstuck itself because of engine vibration.  When mine stuck about 20 + years ago for the fist time it only took a light tap on the relay box to unstick it.  I never did file the contacts like I hear other people doing.  Actually I don't believe in FILING contacts down.  I think it is better to use the least abrasive way possible to clean them.  Files remove the silver or gold plating on contacts.  It's still in use on the bike now with about 129k miles on it.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 178,100 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 413,700 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

TIV

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Working again.

I went through the cables and electrics, cleaned and checked everything, but found nothing wrong really. I took out the "new" relay and it was so badly fused together that I had to use force to separate the contacts! Filed the old relay lightly with a contact file, made sure the battery was fully charged and started up. Everything works fine now.

1. It is obvious to me that the old battery was going weak and caused the old relay to fuse together.

2. I can´t imagine why the new relay fused together right after I installed a new battery and relay. The battery measured fully charged when I installed it......... unless.....

3 ......... I got the new relay from a Bosch dealer in Reykjavik. The relays did not have the same Bosch number. I noticed this when I bought the relay and mentioned it to the dealer. After looking at the computer he insisted that it was identical relay and could be used as a substitute...... I wonder?

The old relay has the number Bosch 0332002161, which I´m sure is the right number because I got it from Motorworks.
The new relay I got from the Bosch dealer in Reykjavík has the number Bosch 0332002168.



Last edited by TIV on Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling)


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1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

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Holister

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This is what happened to my new relay. I think it only lasted a day. I put it down to being substandard. As I mentioned above, it was a Tyco with different suppression components. It used a zener diode instead of a resistor as was in the original Bosch. I read something about this here recently. I think it was a post by robmac.


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1988 K100RT     VIN No.  0094680
1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
     Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

RicK G

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From what I can find from Bosch the 161 is a starter relay and the 168 is a Mains Power relay. Very different purposes and I found a few sites listed the 161 as Unavailable and one said No Longer in Production so I would say the 168 is not suitable for use as a starter relay.  I would say that it would be better to use a solenoid type and put a resistor of around 150 ohms across the 12v side to help prevent arcing when it opens.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

TIV

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Well, I think this issue is solved as much as it can be solved. I have spent a lot of time running around in circles trying to figure out whats wrong and will probably not be the last person to do so. I want to thank you all for your input and help. I wish I could contribute more to this Forum.



Last edited by TIV on Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:57 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling)


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1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

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92KK 84WW Olaf

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Forum is for all and if its helped solve your problem then it has done good.

You have also helped in that some us now know what not to do if we have a starter relay problem. I know my box has an unused Bosch starter relay in it which I will now treasure.

Don't be afraid to stay in touch either, some us might like to visit Iceland, its only about a 2 hour flight from my local airport 12km from me.....come to think of it that means you are only 2 hours or so from the Eccentrics.


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1992 K100LT 0193214 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Baja Red bought 36,000 now 87,100 miles
1997 K1100LT 58,000 miles
    

TIV

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92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:Forum is for all and if its helped solve your problem then it has done good.

You have also helped in that some us now know what not to do if we have a starter relay problem. I know my box has an unused Bosch starter relay in it which I will now treasure.

Don't be afraid to stay in touch either, some us might like to visit Iceland, its only about a 2 hour flight from my local airport 12km from me.....come to think of it that means you are only 2 hours or so from the Eccentrics.
Thanks Olaf, you are right, and yes, everyone, feel free to contact me if you come over for a visit.


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1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

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Holister

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TIV wrote:Well, I think this issue is solved as much as it can be solved. I have spent a lot of time running around in circles trying to figure out whats wrong and will probably not be the last person to do so. I want to thank you all for your input and help. I wish I could contribute more to this Forum.
I felt much the same way TIV. I think there are multiple issues that ultimately bring the starter relay to the point of destruction.... I think that's also what's happening in world politics at the moment Shocked .


__________________________________________________
1988 K100RT     VIN No.  0094680
1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
     Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

TIV

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You are so right there Holister. Plenty of loose nuts and burnt out connections out there! 
What a Face


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1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

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pond snail

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Hello TIV,

Glad you have got the issue sorted out, just an extra thought on the battery isolator switch, I found a very neat one on ebay,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Plastic-100A-Car-SUV-Battery-Disconnect-Rotary-Isolator-Cut-Off-Kill-Switch-Tool-/152390411184?hash=item237b2d23b0:g:rcYAAOSwUKxYdGxA

Comes from Hong Kong, seems to be well made.

Here is a photo of it fitted to my K75, isolates the battery earth, just a bit of extra insurance.

John



Last edited by pond snail on Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added extra text)

    

TIV

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Here is a photo of it fitted to my K75, isolates the battery earth, just a bit of extra insurance.

John

I have been looking for a small and sturdy switch, this one fits the bill.
Laughing

Thanks John


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1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

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pond snail

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You're welcome TIV, glad to finally be a bit of use on here Wink .

It fits in really nicely, was the smallest one I could find, and cheep enough to have a couple spare!,

John Very Happy

    

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