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1Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:42 pm

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
New to me K100. Replaced water pump seals and did the camchain and guides yesterday. There is still this annoying screech, high intensity rattle like an alternator bearing. Took the alternator out today and it’s fine. Does anyone have any ideas please?

    

MartinW

MartinW
Life time member
Life time member
If the noise is evident while the bike is stationary try using a automotive stethoscope to track down the source of the noise. Stethoscopes can be had pretty cheap and are handy when chasing noises. If you don't want to go to the expense you can use a long handled screwdriver, put the blade on the source and the handle to your ear.
Regards Martin.


__________________________________________________
1992 K75s
    

Laitch

Laitch
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__________________________________________________
1995 K75 90,000 miles
    

Rick G

Rick G
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Try pulling the clutch lever to see if it stops.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1999 K1100 LT with a Big Block 1200
    

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
thanks all, investigation ongoing. It could be an exhaust resonance.

    

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
nobbylon wrote:New to me K100. Replaced water pump seals and did the camchain and guides yesterday. There is still this annoying screech, high intensity rattle like an alternator bearing. Took the alternator out today and it’s fine. Does anyone have any ideas please?



did you inspect the rubber bushes that interface with the alternator drive cup (known by many bmw folks as Monkey nuts  as they are connected together rather tenuously and not very big )

we have seen a few issues about noise seeming to come from that area usually the rubbers is the issue  

but could also be the drive shaft that runs the alternator out of the motor ...is that bolt that holds the drive impeller up tight ?

good luck


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
1987 k100rs ########   "Red"  - (red sports rs TWB style )
1989 K100rt #009637   "Black Betty"  (naked rt ala Nigel , now sporting an rs main fairing )
    

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
yep, monkey nuts all ok and everything tightened down. The outermost alternator bolt was missing so have replaced that.

    

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
I feel positive it’s coming from the front and low so for the 3rd time i’m takin he pump off to see if I can see an g tat would cause it.

    

92KK 84WW Olaf

avatar
Life time member
Life time member
You say still a screech. Was it there before doing the cam chain and pump? Did you run the engine without the alternator? That would rule it in or out?

Odd that it happens in a 3-4000rpm rev range.

How exactly was the cam chain tensioner etc fitted? 2v or 4v engine?


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011157 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 58,200 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 48,061 miles.
1983 K100RS 0004449 Odette R100 colours 58,000 miles. Sprint fairing now 61,190 miles

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

10Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:34 pm

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm 8b6a5910
screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm 353f8c10
screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm 1570da10
screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm D23c7b10

Ok so I removed the pump and found this! the screeching is obviously lateral play at certain rpm.
Any ideas as to why? I also removed the sump and found a lot of crud in there so I’ve cleaned that up.
The new pump gear was drawn through the seal correctly so I dont know why it should have done this. Is the block now toasted for running without screeching?

    

11Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:02 pm

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
nobbylon wrote:Ok so I removed the pump and found this!
The new pump gear was drawn through the seal correctly so I dont know why it should have done this.
The crud is likely to be excess assembly silicone which generally is not an unusual find in a sump that never been removed and cleaned.

It is recommended in this document that installation of new style pump seals include a new spacer bushing and a stamped impeller to replace a cast impeller. Did you include those new parts in your installation?


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 90,000 miles
    

12Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:52 am

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
Yes I replaced all new seals, spacer and impeller.

    

13Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:46 am

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
I’ll start it up again today and see what it sounds like.
Options?
1/ shim between back of both gears. Would this reduce oil pressure?
2/ fit a later pump with the larger gear to span the wear area?

I can only think that there has been movement of the shaft downward at some point and that has caused the wear. The photo’s make it look a lot worse than it actually is! 
The only thing keeping the larger gear away from the block surface is spring pressure from the seal. Would it help to pull the gear a little further through the seal thereby increasing the tension of the gear toward the front of the bike and therefore away from the block?
When the pump is assembled I can push the impeller against the spring until the impeller hits the pump body and the gear does move very slightly proud of the pump body. Is this normal? thanks all.


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

14Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:33 am

Rick G

Rick G
admin
admin
The gear should sit flush with no movement and don't shim the gears as that will cause a no oil pressure situation.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1999 K1100 LT with a Big Block 1200
    

15Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:39 am

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
The gear does sit flush BUT when I push the impeller it can move against the spring in the water seal. It only moves back until the impeller hits the body. This is with the pump off of the bike. When mounted there is no movement.


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

16Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:28 am

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
Just refilled with coolant and oil and started it up. Noise still there and I’m positive now that it’s the interface between the gears and engine block. An added bonus is that after taking extra care in making sure all surfaces were dry before applying a coat of hylomar blue, I now have an oil drip! Pump been off 3 times now and I’m sick of emptying and refilling. All in all not a great K experience so far so I’m going to try and find a later big gear pump and after that will fix the drip. Driving me bananas. Never had any of this b@@@@@@s with my airheads in 20 years.


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

17Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:59 am

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
I did however manage to succesfully remove the alloy covers from my old /6 shocks screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm 723598


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

18Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:48 am

Rick G

Rick G
admin
admin
There should not be any movement even when the pump is off the engine. It is not assembled correctly.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1999 K1100 LT with a Big Block 1200
    

19Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:55 am

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
ok thanks Rick, I will take it off again and pull the shaft further through the water seal even though it is flush at the moment. Will report back, cheers


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

20Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:11 am

Rick G

Rick G
admin
admin
I would say that is where the problem is. It needs to be taken as far as it will go with reasonable force. 6mm key in one end of the shaft and open end spanner the other and make it tight.
I think that will solve the problem and once it's done a ride is on the cards, you will need one.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1999 K1100 LT with a Big Block 1200
    

21Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:29 pm

mike d

avatar
Life time member
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Blue Hylomar may not be as effective as three bond in creating a good seal.

Mike

    

22Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:53 pm

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
now you tell me Mike Wink
well I’ve drawn the gear shaft through until no free play, still a screech between 3000 and 4500 pfff. First time I did this I used silicone clear, no leak, next was hylomar blue and a misting of oil, 3rd time was hylomar and a drip and todays effort with hylomar has left a puddle so lesson learned. Ordered some Permatex ultra blue and I’ll put up with the screech if I can get it oil tight!


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

23Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:20 am

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
Rick, 
when I pull the gear shaft through the new seal how far is it supposed to be pulled through? Using washers and spacers I can get rid of end play but still continue to pull or should I say now compress the face of the seal against the spring toward the pump body. Eventually the spring will be completely compressed if I keep adding washers to the stack so that it goes tight surely?
I’ve ordered a new water and oil seal AGAIN and await my Permatex.
Would you use black or blue Ultra? I have both on the way.
thanks for everyone’s patient replies, I’ve been wrenching on cars and bikes for 40 years but this thing was sent from somewhere to test me i’m sure,
j


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

24Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:32 am

Rick G

Rick G
admin
admin
Have you removed ALL of the old water seal. If not you will have problems.
When assembling enter the shaft through the oil seal into the water seal then using a long bolt and washers pull the shaft through just far enough till you can start using the supplied bolt, impeller and alloy spacer then do the bolt up till tight which will pull the shaft and gear into the correct position. You should have the pump ready to place on to the engine.
The last pull should be done using the new pressed steel impeller and the alloy spacer and the new bolt. Tension should not need to be any more than 14-16ft/lb. That should pull the shaft through the water seal far enough that the gear will sit flush with the pump body so that there is no end play when attached to the engine and about 0.025mm clearance of the gear to the pump body and or engine. The gear should not exert any force against the engine or pump body, it should float freely with an absolute minimum of clearance so as to get maximum oil flow. At the same time the impeller should clear the pump body by 0.5 -1.0mm. there will be that 0.5 - 1.0mm end movement against the spring action of the water seal but when standing there should not be any free movement that is discernible.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1999 K1100 LT with a Big Block 1200
    

25Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:52 am

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
thanks for this and yes I completely removed everything and installed exactly and I do mean exactly as you have described. I’m going to take it apart again and redo it with new seals and some Permatex. I will take pictures etc. Installing in the way you described does allow to push on the front impeller when installed and have the shaft move back to take up the gap between impeller fins and pump body. When force is released on the impeller the spring then returns the shaft and therefore the gear, flush with the pump body. The only way to stop this free play against spring is to pull the shaft through further.


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

26Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:23 am

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
Just cleaned and rebuilt the pump again and this time followed the instructions again Rick and have to say it turns a lot smoother than previous attempts. Maybe I had already pulled it through a fraction too far with a washer? who knows but now it turns very smooth so will just have to wait for the sealer and then I can give it another go! Thanks again for the help.


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

27Back to top Go down   screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Empty Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:37 am

nobbylon

nobbylon
Silver member
Silver member
Permatex ultra blue did the job nicely to stop the leaking oil pump and hylomar red on the front cover. The noise is still there so I’m going to assume it’s just worn that way. I can’t hear it when I’m riding and only when I throttle over 3000 ish. Other than that it rides very nicely and will run it around this summer instead of the F650. I’ll pull the gearbox and do the splines sometime in summer. i’m now going to look for an RS fairing for it.
Thanks for all the replies.


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

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