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1Back to top Go down    screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:42 pm

nobbylon

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New to me K100. Replaced water pump seals and did the camchain and guides yesterday. There is still this annoying screech, high intensity rattle like an alternator bearing. Took the alternator out today and itís fine. Does anyone have any ideas please?

    

2Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:39 pm

MartinW

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If the noise is evident while the bike is stationary try using a automotive stethoscope to track down the source of the noise. Stethoscopes can be had pretty cheap and are handy when chasing noises. If you don't want to go to the expense you can use a long handled screwdriver, put the blade on the source and the handle to your ear.
Regards Martin.


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K75s Hybrid
    

3Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:03 pm

Laitch

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1995 K75T 68,000 miles
    

4Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:29 pm

RicK G

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Try pulling the clutch lever to see if it stops.


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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."† from Mencken's 1919 Prejudices

Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

5Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:48 am

nobbylon

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thanks all, investigation ongoing. It could be an exhaust resonance.

    

6Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:00 am

charlie99

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@nobbylon wrote:New to me K100. Replaced water pump seals and did the camchain and guides yesterday. There is still this annoying screech, high intensity rattle like an alternator bearing. Took the alternator out today and itís fine. Does anyone have any ideas please?



did you inspect the rubber bushes that interface with the alternator drive cup (known by many bmw folks as Monkey nuts† as they are connected together rather tenuously and not very big )

we have seen a few issues about noise seeming to come from that area usually the rubbers is the issue †

but could also be the drive shaft that runs the alternator out of the motor ...is that bolt that holds the drive impeller up tight ?

good luck


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

7Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:17 am

nobbylon

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yep, monkey nuts all ok and everything tightened down. The outermost alternator bolt was missing so have replaced that.

    

8Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:19 am

nobbylon

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I feel positive itís coming from the front and low so for the 3rd time iím takin he pump off to see if I can see an g tat would cause it.

    

9Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:36 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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You say still a screech. Was it there before doing the cam chain and pump? Did you run the engine without the alternator? That would rule it in or out?

Odd that it happens in a 3-4000rpm rev range.

How exactly was the cam chain tensioner etc fitted? 2v or 4v engine?


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1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Alaska Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 58,645 now 82,200 miles
    

10Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:34 pm

nobbylon

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Ok so I removed the pump and found this! the screeching is obviously lateral play at certain rpm.
Any ideas as to why? I also removed the sump and found a lot of crud in there so Iíve cleaned that up.
The new pump gear was drawn through the seal correctly so I dont know why it should have done this. Is the block now toasted for running without screeching?

    

11Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:02 pm

Laitch

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@nobbylon wrote:Ok so I removed the pump and found this!
The new pump gear was drawn through the seal correctly so I dont know why it should have done this.
The crud is likely to be excess assembly silicone which generally is not an unusual find in a sump that never been removed and cleaned.

It is recommended in this document that installation of new style pump seals include a new spacer bushing and a stamped impeller to replace a cast impeller. Did you include those new parts in your installation?


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1995 K75T 68,000 miles
    

12Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:52 am

nobbylon

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Yes I replaced all new seals, spacer and impeller.

    

13Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:46 am

nobbylon

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Iíll start it up again today and see what it sounds like.
Options?
1/ shim between back of both gears. Would this reduce oil pressure?
2/ fit a later pump with the larger gear to span the wear area?

I can only think that there has been movement of the shaft downward at some point and that has caused the wear. The photoís make it look a lot worse than it actually is!†
The only thing keeping the larger gear away from the block surface is spring pressure from the seal. Would it help to pull the gear a little further through the seal thereby increasing the tension of the gear toward the front of the bike and therefore away from the block?
When the pump is assembled I can push the impeller against the spring until the impeller hits the pump body and the gear does move very slightly proud of the pump body. Is this normal? thanks all.


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
K100 Dec 1983†
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

14Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:33 am

RicK G

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The gear should sit flush with no movement and don't shim the gears as that will cause a no oil pressure situation.


__________________________________________________
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."† from Mencken's 1919 Prejudices

Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

15Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:39 am

nobbylon

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The gear does sit flush BUT when I push the impeller it can move against the spring in the water seal. It only moves back until the impeller hits the body. This is with the pump off of the bike. When mounted there is no movement.


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
K100 Dec 1983†
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

16Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:28 am

nobbylon

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Just refilled with coolant and oil and started it up. Noise still there and Iím positive now that itís the interface between the gears and engine block. An added bonus is that after taking extra care in making sure all surfaces were dry before applying a coat of hylomar blue, I now have an oil drip! Pump been off 3 times now and Iím sick of emptying and refilling. All in all not a great K experience so far so Iím going to try and find a later big gear pump and after that will fix the drip. Driving me bananas. Never had any of this b@@@@@@s with my airheads in 20 years.


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
K100 Dec 1983†
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

17Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:59 am

nobbylon

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I did however manage to succesfully remove the alloy covers from my old /6 shocks†


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
K100 Dec 1983†
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

18Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:48 am

RicK G

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There should not be any movement even when the pump is off the engine. It is not assembled correctly.


__________________________________________________
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."† from Mencken's 1919 Prejudices

Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

19Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:55 am

nobbylon

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ok thanks Rick, I will take it off again and pull the shaft further through the water seal even though it is flush at the moment. Will report back, cheers


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
K100 Dec 1983†
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

20Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:11 am

RicK G

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I would say that is where the problem is. It needs to be taken as far as it will go with reasonable force. 6mm key in one end of the shaft and open end spanner the other and make it tight.
I think that will solve the problem and once it's done a ride is on the cards, you will need one.


__________________________________________________
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."† from Mencken's 1919 Prejudices

Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

21Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:29 pm

mike d


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Blue Hylomar may not be as effective as three bond in creating a good seal.

Mike

    

22Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:53 pm

nobbylon

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now you tell me Mike Wink
well Iíve drawn the gear shaft through until no free play, still a screech between 3000 and 4500 pfff. First time I did this I used silicone clear, no leak, next was hylomar blue and a misting of oil, 3rd time was hylomar and a drip and todays effort with hylomar has left a puddle so lesson learned. Ordered some Permatex ultra blue and Iíll put up with the screech if I can get it oil tight!


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
K100 Dec 1983†
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

23Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:20 am

nobbylon

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Rick,†
when I pull the gear shaft through the new seal how far is it supposed to be pulled through? Using washers and spacers I can get rid of end play but still continue to pull or should I say now compress the face of the seal against the spring toward the pump body. Eventually the spring will be completely compressed if I keep adding washers to the stack so that it goes tight surely?
Iíve ordered a new water and oil seal AGAIN and await my Permatex.
Would you use black or blue Ultra? I have both on the way.
thanks for everyoneís patient replies, Iíve been wrenching on cars and bikes for 40 years but this thing was sent from somewhere to test me iím sure,
j


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
K100 Dec 1983†
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

24Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:32 am

RicK G

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Have you removed ALL of the old water seal. If not you will have problems.
When assembling enter the shaft through the oil seal into the water seal then using a long bolt and washers pull the shaft through just far enough till you can start using the supplied bolt, impeller and alloy spacer then do the bolt up till tight which will pull the shaft and gear into the correct position. You should have the pump ready to place on to the engine.
The last pull should be done using the new pressed steel impeller and the alloy spacer and the new bolt. Tension should not need to be any more than 14-16ft/lb. That should pull the shaft through the water seal far enough that the gear will sit flush with the pump body so that there is no end play when attached to the engine and about 0.025mm clearance of the gear to the pump body and or engine. The gear should not exert any force against the engine or pump body, it should float freely with an absolute minimum of clearance so as to get maximum oil flow. At the same time the impeller should clear the pump body by 0.5 -1.0mm. there will be that 0.5 - 1.0mm end movement against the spring action of the water seal but when standing there should not be any free movement that is discernible.


__________________________________________________
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."† from Mencken's 1919 Prejudices

Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

25Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:52 am

nobbylon

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thanks for this and yes I completely removed everything and installed exactly and I do mean exactly as you have described. Iím going to take it apart again and redo it with new seals and some Permatex. I will take pictures etc. Installing in the way you described does allow to push on the front impeller when installed and have the shaft move back to take up the gap between impeller fins and pump body. When force is released on the impeller the spring then returns the shaft and therefore the gear, flush with the pump body. The only way to stop this free play against spring is to pull the shaft through further.


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
K100 Dec 1983†
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

26Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:23 am

nobbylon

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Just cleaned and rebuilt the pump again and this time followed the instructions again Rick and have to say it turns a lot smoother than previous attempts. Maybe I had already pulled it through a fraction too far with a washer? who knows but now it turns very smooth so will just have to wait for the sealer and then I can give it another go! Thanks again for the help.


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
K100 Dec 1983†
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

27Back to top Go down    Re: screaching sound at 3000-4000 rpm on Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:37 am

nobbylon

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Permatex ultra blue did the job nicely to stop the leaking oil pump and hylomar red on the front cover. The noise is still there so Iím going to assume itís just worn that way. I canít hear it when Iím riding and only when I throttle over 3000 ish. Other than that it rides very nicely and will run it around this summer instead of the F650. Iíll pull the gearbox and do the splines sometime in summer. iím now going to look for an RS fairing for it.
Thanks for all the replies.


__________________________________________________
R1100GS Feb 1995
K100RS July 1989
K100 Dec 1983†
R90s June 1975
R75/6 Feb 1976
F650GD May 2001
    

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