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1Back to top Go down    Neutral Light on Tue May 08, 2018 7:17 am

DBRMN

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Does anyone know which number pin from the instrument cluster is the neutral light. I have a suspicion its pin 2-4 but I tested it out and got no voltage.

    

2Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Tue May 08, 2018 7:42 am

duck

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When 2-4 are grounded (from the gear position switch on the back of the transmission) the cluster will light up the N indicator lamp in the cluster and also put out 12V on pin 5 which is a green/black wire that goes to the start button.


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

3Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Tue May 08, 2018 7:53 am

robmack

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Pins 2 - 4 are inputs, not outputs. As Duck says, the signals present on them represent a code that indicates the gear. Gear "0" is all inputs grounded.

If you have removed the OEM cluster, then you have to have a way to decode the input to produce neutral when gear "0" is selected.


__________________________________________________
Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
    

4Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Tue May 08, 2018 3:02 pm

DBRMN

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Yeah that's what I suspected I hoped it was separate to the whole gear indication. How complicated is the modification and does anyone know a thread where someones attempted it? As I really feel I should have a neutral light, is there a different way you can add one?

    

5Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Tue May 08, 2018 3:04 pm

duck

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__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

6Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Tue May 08, 2018 5:19 pm

Dai

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For the UK MOT all you need is:

1. A high-beam indicator
2. An indicator repeater; and only then if you can't see all four indicators at the same time.

What you'd be stupid not to have:

1. A neutral light
2. An oil pressure light (or if you're a Kawasaki: an oil level light. Never did get that one...)

So that covers just about all Britbikes from about 1960 onwards Very Happy

Sensible-to-have:

1. Anything that gives you an indication of parts of the engine e.g. the generator, fuel level warning (and only that because there's no reserve switch)

Icing on the cake:

1. Anything like the GPI.

But then again, some of the bikes I rode early in my career had no neutral light and no indicators from new. You soon learned where neutral was; or in the case of the Bridgestone rotary gearbox, not to go directly from top to first on a downchange (Rick?).


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

7Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Tue May 08, 2018 5:21 pm

DBRMN

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This is probably going to take me a bit to get my head round as I have no electrical knowledge, doesn't look too difficult but that might be me being naive lol

    

8Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Tue May 08, 2018 5:23 pm

DBRMN

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@Dai wrote:For the UK MOT all you need is:

1. A high-beam indicator
2. An indicator repeater; and only then if you can't see all four indicators at the same time.

What you'd be stupid not to have:

1. A neutral light
2. An oil pressure light (or if you're a Kawasaki: an oil level light. Never did get that one...)

So that covers just about all Britbikes from about 1960 onwards Very Happy

Sensible-to-have:

1. Anything that gives you an indication of parts of the engine e.g. the generator, fuel level warning (and only that because there's no reserve switch)

Icing on the cake:

1. Anything like the GPI.

But then again, some of the bikes I rode early in my career had no neutral light and no indicators from new. You soon learned where neutral was; or in the case of the Bridgestone rotary gearbox, not to go directly from top to first on a downchange (Rick?).
Already wired up full beam works a treat, do I need an indicator light if I have handle bar end indicators cause you can literally see them? I plan on wiring a check engine light as well, I have five possible warning lights.

Already wired up, battery charging light and oil light, is there a way of testing them when your done thought?

Whats a GPI?

    

9Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Tue May 08, 2018 6:03 pm

duck

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Gear Position Indicator - tells you what gear you're in - like the LCD in the tach on the factory cluster.


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

10Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Tue May 08, 2018 7:42 pm

robmack

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Please seeGear Indicator Aftermarket Speedo and Other Circuits . You can get this four relay circuit from me for very cheap, which saves you the bother of building it. My price is about the same as your costs would be.


__________________________________________________
Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
    

11Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Wed May 09, 2018 7:07 am

DBRMN

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@robmack wrote:Please seeGear Indicator Aftermarket Speedo and Other Circuits . You can get this four relay circuit from me for very cheap, which saves you the bother of building it. My price is about the same as your costs would be.
Wow this is some clever stuff! I'm definitely interested however it's probably going to be a month till I can focus on this as my EPQ ends in a month so I need to get the rear cowl down but after that I will most likely be in touch thanks you!

    

12Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Wed May 09, 2018 7:54 am

Dai

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@DBRMN wrote:do I need an indicator light if I have handle bar end indicators cause you can literally see them? I plan on wiring a check engine light as well, I have five possible warning lights.

Already wired up, battery charging light and oil light, is there a way of testing them when your done thought?
I'd fit an indicator repeater. I doubt most MOT testers are aware of that clause in the Construction And Use regulations.

The oil light should work if you earth the end at the pressure switch. Battery light - you'll have to wait till start up and check whether it goes out.

Now, list here everything you've done; I want to check that you're not heading into SVA (Single Vehicle Authorisation) territory. That's a whole new ball of wool.


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

13Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Wed May 09, 2018 11:42 am

DBRMN

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@Dai wrote:
@DBRMN wrote:do I need an indicator light if I have handle bar end indicators cause you can literally see them? I plan on wiring a check engine light as well, I have five possible warning lights.

Already wired up, battery charging light and oil light, is there a way of testing them when your done thought?
I'd fit an indicator repeater. I doubt most MOT testers are aware of that clause in the Construction And Use regulations.

The oil light should work if you earth the end at the pressure switch. Battery light - you'll have to wait till start up and check whether it goes out.

Now, list here everything you've done; I want to check that you're not heading into SVA (Single Vehicle Authorisation) territory. That's a whole new ball of wool.
Whats an Indicator Repeater? is that what makes it flash?

Wheres the pressure switch?

When you say done to the bike do you mean every modification?

    

14Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Wed May 09, 2018 7:12 pm

Dai

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The indicator repeater is the amber (sometimes green as on the K) light in the instrument panel that flashes in time with the indicators. Some bikes have two (one for each side, like the K) and some have only one. If you fit one for each side then you run the same coloured wire for that side to the repeater bulb and earth the other side of the repeater. On a K that's a blue/black wire for the right side and a blue/red wire for the left side. For a single repeater bulb, you would connect the K blue/black wire to one side of the bulb and the blue/red wire to the other side of the bulb. On the face of it that should not work because you appear to be feeding two positives to the indicator repeater. In operation, only one side gets 12 volts (the side that is flashing) and the other side earths through the non-flashing bulb filaments. If you're doing any form of physics, your tutor can give you the lowdown on the whys and wherefores of it working.

The oil pressure switch is the brown/green wire low down and under the oil and water pump assembly at the front of the bike. Chances are, if you try to pull the rubber cover off then everything will split. Trace it back up to the front right of the frame: IIRC it's the only 'single' connector in the wiring loom. Earth the end that disappears into the main wiring loom.

There's a list of 'points' for certain types of modification. Once you exceed a certain number of points, it becomes a completely new vehicle and has to be tested as such. Some mods are instant 'new machine'. If it requires an MSVA, when you have passed the MSVA test, only then can you get it MOT'd. These links should help:-

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/194159/MSVA_Guide.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/366046/msva-manual.pdf

I think you maybe in MSVA territory because you've modified the frame (seat loop). Best talk to a local MOT inspector or ring VOSA and have a chat with them. You really don't want to get into trouble with the law.


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

15Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Thu May 10, 2018 5:09 am

Stumpy

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Not one hundred percent sure but, what if you connected both indicators each to the repeater and then the repeater to Earth. The relevant side should power the repeater.

    

16Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Thu May 10, 2018 5:25 am

Inge K.

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Then you you also must add a diode between each circuit and the repeater,
or you gonna end up with a hazards flasher.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

17Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Fri May 11, 2018 2:45 pm

DBRMN

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@Dai wrote:The indicator repeater is the amber (sometimes green as on the K) light in the instrument panel that flashes in time with the indicators. Some bikes have two (one for each side, like the K) and some have only one. If you fit one for each side then you run the same coloured wire for that side to the repeater bulb and earth the other side of the repeater. On a K that's a blue/black wire for the right side and a blue/red wire for the left side. For a single repeater bulb, you would connect the K blue/black wire to one side of the bulb and the blue/red wire to the other side of the bulb. On the face of it that should not work because you appear to be feeding two positives to the indicator repeater. In operation, only one side gets 12 volts (the side that is flashing) and the other side earths through the non-flashing bulb filaments. If you're doing any form of physics, your tutor can give you the lowdown on the whys and wherefores of it working.

The oil pressure switch is the brown/green wire low down and under the oil and water pump assembly at the front of the bike. Chances are, if you try to pull the rubber cover off then everything will split. Trace it back up to the front right of the frame: IIRC it's the only 'single' connector in the wiring loom. Earth the end that disappears into the main wiring loom.

There's a list of 'points' for certain types of modification. Once you exceed a certain number of points, it becomes a completely new vehicle and has to be tested as such. Some mods are instant 'new machine'. If it requires an MSVA, when you have passed the MSVA test, only then can you get it MOT'd. These links should help:-

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/194159/MSVA_Guide.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/366046/msva-manual.pdf

I think you maybe in MSVA territory because you've modified the frame (seat loop). Best talk to a local MOT inspector or ring VOSA and have a chat with them. You really don't want to get into trouble with the law.
If I have bar end indicators do you think an indicator repeater is necessary as you can literally see when your indicating?

Okay I think I'm going to try this after I've finished the cowl because I'm rushing to get that to the paint shop. I had a quick look and I think I know which wire it is, I'll attach a picture later.

In terms of structural the hoop is the only thing I've changed and that's now welded on. All the other changes have been tiny little things like different headlight, custom seat, speedometer stuff like that. Thanks for that document I've been looking for that for ages I just didn't know what to search. See picture.

    

18Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Sat May 12, 2018 7:52 am

Dai

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@DBRMN wrote:If I have bar end indicators do you think an indicator repeater is necessary as you can literally see when your indicating?

-----

In terms of structural the hoop is the only thing I've changed and that's now welded on. All the other changes have been tiny little things like different headlight, custom seat, speedometer stuff like that. Thanks for that document I've been looking for that for ages I just didn't know what to search. See picture.
In theory, no, but as I said, I'm not sure how many MOT testers would be aware of that particular quirk in the C&U regs.

-----

I think it does come under the MSVA because moving the seat hoop is a structural change (unlike just cutting off or welding on new brackets). That's why I advised talking to VOSA.


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

19Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Sat May 12, 2018 12:26 pm

DBRMN

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@Dai wrote:
@DBRMN wrote:If I have bar end indicators do you think an indicator repeater is necessary as you can literally see when your indicating?

-----

In terms of structural the hoop is the only thing I've changed and that's now welded on. All the other changes have been tiny little things like different headlight, custom seat, speedometer stuff like that. Thanks for that document I've been looking for that for ages I just didn't know what to search. See picture.
In theory, no, but as I said, I'm not sure how many MOT testers would be aware of that particular quirk in the C&U regs.

-----

I think it does come under the MSVA because moving the seat hoop is a structural change (unlike just cutting off or welding on new brackets). That's why I advised talking to VOSA.
Ye I get you I might install a light then we'll see.

Oh god, don't a lot of people have this trouble cause most cafe racer's modify their rear hoop? Would you advise I call them or email them?

    

20Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Sat May 12, 2018 3:19 pm

Dai

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Call them and get any confirmation by email. You may get told straight away not to worry. The real problem will come when you try to insure it. One of the questions you will be asked is 'have you made any mods to the bike?'; under that situation you will be in a position to quote chapter and verse:

Yes - it's been MSVA'd
Yes - VOSA said there is no need to MSVA and here's the proof.

If you don't comply with the absolute last letter of the insurance, the underwriters will wriggle out in the event of an accident. Remember: their loyalty is to their shareholders, not to you.


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

21Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Sun May 13, 2018 10:31 am

DBRMN

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@Dai wrote:Call them and get any confirmation by email. You may get told straight away not to worry. The real problem will come when you try to insure it. One of the questions you will be asked is 'have you made any mods to the bike?'; under that situation you will be in a position to quote chapter and verse:

Yes - it's been MSVA'd
Yes - VOSA said there is no need to MSVA and here's the proof.

If you don't comply with the absolute last letter of the insurance, the underwriters will wriggle out in the event of an accident. Remember: their loyalty is to their shareholders, not to you.
Yeah very important to think about thanks for your help. Do you know if tracks will let you ride a modified bike without it being insured if your underage? And if it does or doesn't have a MSVA or VOSA?

Because I want to be able to ride it before I'm 21.

    

22Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Sun May 13, 2018 11:59 am

Laitch

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@DBRMN wrote: Do you know if tracks will let you ride a modified bike without it being insured if your underage? And if it does or doesn't have a MSVA or VOSA?

Because I want to be able to ride it before I'm 21.
Terms and conditions might vary from track to track. Riding in a track day event without insurance doesn't seem like a good idea unless you have access to plenty of money to recover your bike and body from damage.

Anyway, here's one outfit's requirements. http://www.silverstone.co.uk/terms-and-conditions/bike-track-days-terms-conditions/


__________________________________________________
1995 K75T 68,000 miles
    

23Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Sun May 13, 2018 6:22 pm

Dai

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Point 17 is the relevant one. It's not just you - it's the other rider that you hit/hits you.


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

24Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Mon May 14, 2018 1:38 pm

DBRMN

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@Laitch wrote:
@DBRMN wrote: Do you know if tracks will let you ride a modified bike without it being insured if your underage? And if it does or doesn't have a MSVA or VOSA?

Because I want to be able to ride it before I'm 21.
Terms and conditions might vary from track to track. Riding in a track day event without insurance doesn't seem like a good idea unless you have access to plenty of money to recover your bike and body from damage.

Anyway, here's one outfit's requirements. http://www.silverstone.co.uk/terms-and-conditions/bike-track-days-terms-conditions/
Think I need to try and get myself an ACU license. Yeah true.

    

25Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Mon May 14, 2018 1:39 pm

DBRMN

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@Dai wrote:
Point 17 is the relevant one. It's not just you - it's the other rider that you hit/hits you.
Can you get track specific insurance even if your underage?

    

26Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Mon May 14, 2018 3:59 pm

Laitch

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@DBRMN wrote:
@Dai wrote:
Point 17 is the relevant one. It's not just you - it's the other rider that you hit/hits you.
Can you get track specific insurance even if your underage?
Items #6, #7, and #8 at Silverstone's site make it clear what ages and under which qualifications riders can use the track. Insurance is the rider's responsibility but it is not in the best interest of insurance companies to write policies for underage riders. Their risk of having to pay out is too high.

Be patient so you can at least reach the qualifying age. Smile


__________________________________________________
1995 K75T 68,000 miles
    

27Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Tue May 15, 2018 7:42 am

Dai

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I lament the dearth of old airfields where we learned to ride. I had the luxury of a mile of dead-straight runway with huge sweeping taxiways back to the start... they used to launch B-17s from there. Most old airfields are now nothing but housing estates.

An ACU licence is a good idea but as ever, read the small print very carefully. I'm completely out of touch with the current ACU requirements.


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

28Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Tue May 15, 2018 7:59 am

Laitch

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@Dai wrote:I lament the dearth of old airfields where we learned to ride. I had the luxury of a mile of dead-straight runway with huge sweeping taxiways back to the start... they used to launch B-17s from there.
Mutually-assured destruction had its up-side back then. Those were the days.


__________________________________________________
1995 K75T 68,000 miles
    

29Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Tue May 15, 2018 1:55 pm

Dai

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Here's the one I learned on:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0065381,-1.7055839,1218m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Definately not much left of it. Back then (1970s) it was still a Class 3 airfield i.e. open for use at your own risk, but no control tower etc.. The north side of the airfield is Bradley Woods where I fell out of more trees than enough. North of Bradley Woods on the A517 is where I got a Garelli Rekord moped up to an indicated 68mph down Shepherd's Hill... bollox, I'm getting old.


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

30Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Sun May 20, 2018 5:36 pm

DBRMN

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@Laitch wrote:
@DBRMN wrote:
@Dai wrote:
Point 17 is the relevant one. It's not just you - it's the other rider that you hit/hits you.
Can you get track specific insurance even if your underage?
Items #6, #7, and #8 at Silverstone's site make it clear what ages and under which qualifications riders can use the track. Insurance is the rider's responsibility but it is not in the best interest of insurance companies to write policies for underage riders. Their risk of having to pay out is too high.

Be patient so you can at least reach the qualifying age. Smile
Yeah fair enough trouble is I'm too excited lol

    

31Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Sun May 20, 2018 5:36 pm

DBRMN

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@Dai wrote:I lament the dearth of old airfields where we learned to ride. I had the luxury of a mile of dead-straight runway with huge sweeping taxiways back to the start... they used to launch B-17s from there. Most old airfields are now nothing but housing estates.

An ACU licence is a good idea but as ever, read the small print very carefully. I'm completely out of touch with the current ACU requirements.
Ye I've heard of strips of tarmac near me I need to explore that idea!

    

32Back to top Go down    Re: Neutral Light on Sun May 20, 2018 5:37 pm

DBRMN

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@Dai wrote:Here's the one I learned on:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0065381,-1.7055839,1218m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Definately not much left of it. Back then (1970s) it was still a Class 3 airfield i.e. open for use at your own risk, but no control tower etc.. The north side of the airfield is Bradley Woods where I fell out of more trees than enough. North of Bradley Woods on the A517 is where I got a Garelli Rekord moped up to an indicated 68mph down Shepherd's Hill... bollox, I'm getting old.
Exactly what I've want to do ahaha

    

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