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1Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:34 pm

mattinker

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Hi, I have an intermittent problem that has finally become a full time problem. I have traced it to the fuel sensor, great, but I cannot get a new sensor, my BMW agent promissed me a new sensor ten days ago. Apparently, BMW have parts supply problems in France due to a new computr program. Does anybody know how to test this so that I can at least be sure it's that? From what I understand, on the 85 K100, the one that doesn't have a fuel gauge, the fuel sensor tells the EFI unit if there is no fuel and shuts the engine down. I'd like to be able to fool it into thinking there's fuel because the faulty sender is saying it's out of fuel. Am I making sense? My other alternative is buying online, does anyone know where I find an 85 fuel sensor, I don't mind paying shipping to Europe, it's very light and won't cost much!

Thanks in advance, Matthew

    

2Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:03 pm

reg_K100RS

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"The fuel sensor tells the EFI unit if there is no fuel and shuts the engine down"

Are you sure?
Just looked at the wiring diagrams for all K100s and cant see how that works
or any obvious link between the sender and injection control system.

you have 4 wires to the tank. Power, Ground and in your case, two outputs to the warning lights
later bikes have 4 as well but only one to the low fuel warning light
and one ( yellow) which can be connected to a gauge.
In either case the power and ground wires supply the pump.
Perhaps the problem isnt the sender, but the supply to the pump?

    

3Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:44 am

Albyalbatross1

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I have been meaning to try here
Just been a bit lazy lately...They do all sorts of restoration and supply hard to find components.

    

4Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:57 am

mattinker

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@reg_K100RS wrote:"The fuel sensor tells the EFI unit if there is no fuel and shuts the engine down"

Are you sure?
Just looked at the wiring diagrams for all K100s and cant see how that works
or any obvious link between the sender and injection control system.

you have 4 wires to the tank. Power, Ground and in your case, two outputs to the warning lights
later bikes have 4 as well but only one to the low fuel warning light
and one ( yellow) which can be connected to a gauge.
In either case the power and ground wires supply the pump.
Perhaps the problem isnt the sender, but the supply to the pump?

I don't know where I read this thing about the sender cutting out the EFI, I spoke to the "K" specialist, in the BMW agent I'm tryingto get the parts from, he said that the common earth , pump and warning lights was a possible problem. I went through thr trouble shooting k100troubleshooting looking for connections and references, couldn't find any, so mabe a direct feed to the pump is the test. Thanks for your thoughts I'll give it a try.

    

5Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:35 am

phil_mars

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Hi Matthew and I know it sounds weird but a full time problem is vastly easier to fault find than an intermittent one, so if you wish to give us a bit more specific information we will be more than happy to throw some ideas your way.


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6Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:30 am

Crazy Frog

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The fuel sensor has no connections to the EFI.
The water temperature sensor will prevent the EFI to work if it sends a signal that the engine is over heated.
Can you disconnect the plug of the FI computer and measure what resistance you find between pin #10 and the ground (take the measurement at the plug with the ignition off) When the engine is cold, you should read between 1.5 to 2 K Ohms.


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85 K100 fuel sensor Frog1585 K100 fuel sensor Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

7Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:58 am

reg_K100RS

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Matthew
To repeat Phils suggestion
A blow by blow description of the symptoms will
probably have these guys offering more detailed guesses of
what your problem really is.

I dont claim much expertise on these bikes but from what I can see
you could throw the senders away and the bikes would run fine
as its not a critical component, but an accessory.

    

8Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:03 pm

K-BIKE

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I concur the fuel sender as Crazy Frog says has nothing to do with the EFI it would be illogical to build that in because if the bike is out of fuel it stops so there is no need to electronically stop the bike with a sensor for fuel level. As Bert says the temperature sensor will stop the bike starting but will allow the bike to run until you shut it off and will prevent a re-start until it has cooled. As the guys say above you need to give us the full symptoms you are experiencing, is it a no start from cold, a no start from hot, cutting out at idle or a shut down whilst you are riding? Once we have some facts to go on we can do some diagnosis. Also if the K specialist at the dealer told you the fuel level sensor was a problem you have just located someone who you should not rely on for diagnostic advice.
Regards,
K-BIKE

    

9Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Tests. on Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:03 pm

mattinker

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Hi,
I fed the fuel pump directly through the reservoir cap, eliminating possible bad connections in the fuel sensor. The pump worked normally, but the plugs are dry. I've printed out the "crazy Frog" trouble shooting doc. (Bertrand tu et en France j'imagine, je suis a Aubervilliers dans le 93. Je cherche pas a t'emereder, just eventuellement profiter de tes connaiscance des fournisseurs ouvert en ete!) It's time to start testing seriously with the multi meter!

Regards, Matthew

mattinker@yahoo.com

    

10Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:57 pm

Crazy Frog

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I am sorry but I am not in France. I am living on the East coast of Canada (but I am originally from France). I don't have any idea of which dealer is open during the summer in your area.
The EFI troubleshooting has been updated in English, but not in French (sorry but I don't have the time. Maybe next winter). Please look at both versions to get the maximum of info.
Can you please tell us if you get power at the fuel injectors.
This will give us some clues to help you troubleshoot your problem.
If you have any language problem (I don't think you do) send me an MP.

Bert


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85 K100 fuel sensor Frog1585 K100 fuel sensor Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

11Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:13 am

mattinker

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Bert,

thanks for your reply, I should have looked on the right hand side of your message to see where you live! I have no problems with English, it's my mother tounge I've only been massacering the "langue de Moliere" for thirty years!

I'll try and get onto the injector current test tonight, reading through your troubleshooting guide, it certainly seems like the place to start!

Regards, Matthew

    

12Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:31 am

Crazy Frog

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I massacre the langue of Shakespeare for 20 years and proudly speak Frenglish. Razz


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85 K100 fuel sensor Frog1585 K100 fuel sensor Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

13Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:29 am

reg_K100RS

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I know enough 'Franglais' to make myself misunderstood in
both languages 85 K100 fuel sensor Icon_biggrin

    

14Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:30 pm

mattinker

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Moving slowly forward, 12volt LEDs should arrive tomorrow,so with any luck I'll be able to test the fuel injector supply.

Matthew (who's using his bicyle far too much these days!)

    

15Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:15 pm

mattinker

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Hi,
my 12 volt LED arrived, tested for current at the injectors, nothing. Fuses are all OK, the fuel pump functions normally when fed directlyfrom it's supply without going through the sensor. So what next? This fault has been intermittent, getting worse, The bike would ocassionally cut out, either for a second or two, or for much longer, pulling on varous bits of the loom seemed to get it going again. I cleaned the earth connections, all of the cable connectors, the battery earth. After the clean up I thought I had it licked, but a week later, it started again. After the latest fuel sender episode, where both fuel lights came on with a nearly full tank it's not even trying to start,wheras before, it would fire two or three times and stop. Now, the plugs are clean and dry.

I would very much apreciate help with the next steps, I trained as a mechanic brfore the arrival of electronic injection. I have no problems with the mechanical side, but the electronics! I can use an ohm meter, I'm an indusrtial electricien also, but no electronics! Regards, Matthew

    

16Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:43 pm

reg_K100RS

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Just a wild guess but how about the throttle position switch?
(black connector on LH side at rear of fuel rail)
if it sends a 'closed' signal to the efi thingy no fuel is injected
I and I know others have had problems with these

    

17Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:20 pm

Crazy Frog

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I guess the next easy step would be to test the water temperature sensor.
The easiest is to unplug the EFI computer and measure the resistance between pin #10 of the plug and the ground.
Here is the values you should read. When the engine is cold (water between 20 and 30 degrees), the resistance should not be under 1.5 kΩ

85 K100 fuel sensor Water%20temperature


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85 K100 fuel sensor Frog1585 K100 fuel sensor Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

18Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:04 am

mattinker

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Hi, I tried starting with the throtle switch dis-connected, nothing changed. I've allready changed the water temperature sensor twelve months ago. It would start even when it was bad, it was treating it as though the engine was hot, I'm getting nothing at the injector out put leads!

Regards, Matthew

    

19Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:19 am

Crazy Frog

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Matthew,

Even if you had replaced the water temperature sensor, it could fail again. If it is shorted , the bike WILL NOT start.
You told us that the plugs are dry, but.... do you have spark at the plugs?

If the EFI doesn't receive a signal from the ignition unit, it will not power the injectors.

You tested the signal at the injectors and got nothing. Do you get at least +12v at the injectors?
- Set up your multimeter for 12 volt DC
- Unplug the electrical connector of one injector.
- put the positive wire of your multimeter to the connection fed by the Green/red wire.
- touch the engine with the other wire of your multimeter (need to be a good ground)
- Turn ON the ignition and crank the engine.
You should read 12v.

Bert


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85 K100 fuel sensor Frog1585 K100 fuel sensor Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

20Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty 87 K100RS runaround on Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:12 pm

87K100RS Spain

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My '87 had the same problem...turns out the fan motor was toast and causing a loopback through the sensor, shutting down the fuel pump relay. Replaced the fan motor and she ran right as rain.

    

21Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Time problem on Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:20 am

mattinker

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Thank you all for your help so far, I am so short of time at the moment, that I bought very cheaply, with a friend a K75 (ex police) to use whilst I get through this work crisis period, I'll get back to the K100 later! So I'll be back again I should think! Thanks again, Matthew

    

22Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:41 am

nino

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Hello, anybody to explain what means when resistance on plug pin 10 F1 is 0,55 KOhm on cold engine. Bert said it has to be at least 1,5 KOhm on cold.
I have a problem with warm engine and fan doesnt engage at all.

Regards

    

23Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:51 am

charlie99

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yes that is a strange find nino
I would expect that if the cable or temperature  sensor was corroded that it would read higher ...not lower

 

um could it be that some one has put another sensor from something else ...in a k100 ???

wouldn't be the first time I expect


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O85 K100 fuel sensor Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

24Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:01 am

nino

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I dont believe that I have sensor from another vehicle. Why fan doesnt start at all? Could it be connedcted to faulty sensor

    

25Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:18 am

RicK G

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There are 2 sensors in the one unit there Nino. They both have violet/yellow wire from them. One is for Fuel injection/ temp light and the other for the fan. From pin 10 you will only read the FI sensor.  What temp is the engine when you take the cold reading, if you take at room temp it probably would be 500-600 ohms but at 10°C it would be 1500 ohms and those sensors are renound for being off the mark at cold temps, it is hot readings that are important for good running.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

26Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:42 am

charlie99

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have you read some of the fan not working posts nino

we have seen things from

1> bad connections at the fan to loom connector under the tank (easily fixed )
2> fan brushes broken not contacting
3> seized fan bearings (easily fixed _
4> temp sensing relay has broken contacts to the internal circuit board
5> fuse - ground issues
just to name a few

does the fan turn ok with just a push from the right hand fairing holes ?(some times a stick could reach in there to do that job

just some reminders


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O85 K100 fuel sensor Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

27Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:12 am

nino

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Pushed by hand fan rotates freely, all the contacts look OK

    

28Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:18 am

charlie99

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um do I suggest to start at the basics  and try and put direct power onto the fan connections ...and work backwards ?

often time consuming I know ...but worth the art of discounting one thing and working towards the real issue

still amazed at the readings you found though

good luck ! hope it is easy to sort out


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O85 K100 fuel sensor Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

29Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:45 am

nino

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Rick, resistance reading at FI plug pin 10 is the same all time: from cold engine in the morning to very hot engine after long run. Its 0,55 Kohm.
Sensor caputt?



Last edited by nino on Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total

    

30Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:57 am

RicK G

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Yes, most likely but remove the sensor and check it with a meter before ordering a new one.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

31Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:04 am

ReneZ

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Have you measured both sides of the temp sensor? One side goes to the ECU the other to the fan/light solenoid in the relay box


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Greetings from Florida! Having a 'new' K  :cyclops:    Surprised-o: 

Rene


BMW K100 - 1985 (0030029) 85 K100 fuel sensor Rain
BMW K1200GT - 2003 (ZK01223)
    

32Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:52 am

nino

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@ReneZ wrote:Have you measured both sides of the temp sensor? One side goes to the ECU the other to the fan/light solenoid in the relay box

Not yet. How to do it? Measure between pins on sensor?

    

33Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:08 am

RicK G

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From each pin to the body which is ground


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

34Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:59 pm

Inge K.

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@nino wrote:Rick, resistance reading at FI plug pin 10 is the same all time: from cold engine in the morning to very hot engine after long run. Its 0,55 Kohm.
Sensor caputt?


And you're measuring at the correct contact in the connector?

85 K100 fuel sensor L-jetr10


About checking the second element at the temp sensor, remove the temp management relay from its socket in the relay box and measure the resistance between 31 and E in the socket.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

35Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:18 pm

nino

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No, I didnt count empty pins. I just came home from work and checked pin 10. Cold engine outside temp. 17 - 16 result 2,30 Kohm


What is resistance value for relay?



Last edited by nino on Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

    

36Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:33 pm

Inge K.

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@nino wrote:No, I didnt count empty pins.

Did Guess that.....then you have measured the resistance to ground through
the injector coils and the airflow meter.

2300 ohms would correspond to ~22-24 C, seems like your sensor is OK.


Both sensor elements should have the same resistance at a given temp.


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

37Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty 87 k100 fuel sender on Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:43 am

Pento1966

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Hi there, Did you ever fix your fuel sender problem?
i need to get one for mine but dont even know where to start. do you have a part number?
regards
Paul.

    

38Back to top Go down   85 K100 fuel sensor Empty Re: 85 K100 fuel sensor on Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:00 am

Inge K.

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@Pento1966 wrote:Hi there, Did you ever fix your fuel sender problem?
i need to get one for mine but dont even know where to start. do you have a part number?
regards
Paul.

A fuel level sensor on a -85 and a -87 is two quite different animals.


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K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

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