BMW K bikes (Bricks)

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1Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:14 am

audibob

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Hi all,

my nearside front indicator failed, with the rear going double quick time.

bulb holder and bulb okay

Used it on offside and worked okay.

Both Feed wires give the same type of fluctuating voltage

Nearside earth okay, checked by disconnecting offside earth and connecting a wire to the disconnected nearside earth connector, and the offside ran okay.

If I use the nearside positive, disconnect the nearside earth, and earth via the disconnected offside, it still

doesnt work, although I get power from the nearside positive , similiar to the offside readings.

Would it be the switch, which I have not looked at, or the flasher relay. which I will order anyway

Does anyone know if I can get a flasher relay , ie from car shop, or is the design for the k100 only.

Thanks for any replies

bob


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

2Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:29 am

RicK G

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VIP
VIP
Make sure the actual contact on the bulb is conducting first. It is highly unlikely to be the switch.


__________________________________________________
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." from Mencken's 1919 Prejudices

Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

3Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:46 am

duck

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Make sure contacts are clean as suggested. Try swapping both bulbs from one side to the other. Sometimes bulbs can illuminate but not allow enough current through to make the flasher relay happy.

The switch does not control the rate of flashing, the flasher relay does.

The flasher relay is unique to K bikes (and a couple of Rs) and is not a generic part available from anywhere but BMW. (The only aftermarket one I know of is the Kisan SM-6 SignalMinder.)


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

4Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:56 am

audibob

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The bulb that didnt light up on the nearside was okay in the offside holder.

I will go and double check my work.


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

5Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:01 pm

audibob

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Checked my findings and they are correct.

I even swapped the rear bulb and still no go.

Basically, the feed from the nearside non working bulb, does not power the nearside , or the offside .

but when I power the nearside from the offside feed, the nearside works

The fluctuating voltages from both sides , when each is set to on, is the same .

Although the nearside feed has voltage, it will not power either side


Relay....?


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

6Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:22 pm

duck

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Life time member
Life time member
Are you saying that the positive wire to the left front turn signal is not getting power?


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

7Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:30 pm

audibob

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Hi Duck,

no, the front nearside positive wire gives me the same readings as the offside.


bob


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

8Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:45 pm

duck

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Life time member
Life time member
What about the ground wire? Have you checked that?


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

9Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:51 pm

audibob

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Platinum member
I disconnected the earth wire from the offside bulb holder, and connected a separate wire from the earth post

to the nearside earth wire , the offside worked, so I presumed the nearside earth is good


Bob


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

10Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:47 pm

mike d


Life time member
Life time member
If using a multimeter to measure the voltage during fault finding readings can get confusing. The meter draws no (very low) current but you will still a voltage. However if there is a high resistance elsewhere in the circuit (e.g. the nearside indicator) the resultant voltage drop at that point, could result in too low a voltage to illuminate the indicator bulb.

There are separate LH and RH input connections to the indicator relay.

In addition to that, looking at the diagram the relay output for say the nearside indicator (Blue Red) appears to have a connection point where the repeater bulb and front and rear indicator bulbs are connected. If that was high resistance then you could get the same symptoms.

And yes it could be a duff relay.

Mike

    

11Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:58 pm

audibob

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Platinum member
Thanks Mike,

The nearside bulb and holder works okay when plugged into the offside wiring

Although I am no sparky, both positives looked to give the same type of voltage drop pattern.

There was no obvious difference between them.

Is it possible to swap the feed wire to both sides on the relay to see if the problem switched sides ?

Bob


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

12Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:06 pm

duck

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Life time member
Life time member
1 - If the front isn't working but the rear is hyperflashing then that means the flasher relay is working properly because it should hyperflash if only one turn signal is working.

2 - Pin 10 from the flasher relay is a blue/red wire. That wire feeds three blue/red wires that go to:
a - left rear turn signal
b - left front turn signal
c - left turn indicator lamp in the instrument cluster


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

13Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:29 pm

audibob

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Platinum member
Platinum member
Thanks Duck.

which relay pin is for the offside.

I get power to the near side positive wire, but will not light up the bulb.

When I use the hazards, three lights work correctly,at the right speed, but again, the front nearside does not work.

Am I missing something?

Bob


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

14Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:34 pm

duck

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Life time member
Life time member
Right side is blue/black from Pin 9 of the flasher relay.

Have you tried swapping in the socket from the right front turn signal to the left? A bad socket might be your issue.


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

15Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:40 pm

audibob

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Platinum member
Platinum member
Hi Duck,

have swapped both, and both units light up when connected to the offside.

Checked bulbs ..

nearside earth works when connected to offside feed.

Cannot see how it cannot be the relay somehow....

Bob


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

16Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:15 pm

duck

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Life time member
Life time member
But there is only one blue/red wire for the left coming from the relay. If it were the relay not lighting up the front left then it wouldn't light up the others (rear & cluster indicator) either.


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

17Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:57 pm

audibob

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Platinum member
Platinum member
Thanks Duck.

I see where you are coming from..

the odd thing is that I get power to the nearside front positive wire . and the earth is good.

but it doesnt light up, yet that bulb and holder works on the offside.

very odd.

try again tomorrow

Bob


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

18Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:12 pm

duck

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Life time member
Life time member
Nothing a few beers won't cure. Twisted Evil


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

19Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:11 am

mike d


Life time member
Life time member
Try connecting a wire direct from the battery to the input of the bulb. If the bulb the illuminates the fault is up stream to the relay. If it still doesn't illuminate it downstream on the earth side.

Mike

    

20Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:01 am

RicK G

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VIP
VIP
Test the circuit and if there is 12v or ground by using a bulb of the correct wattage. A meter will show voltage but as soon as the bulb is put in the circuit there is a bad joint that stops the current flow.


__________________________________________________
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." from Mencken's 1919 Prejudices

Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

21Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:23 am

audibob

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Platinum member
I powered the bulb from the battery and it lit up.

The nearside ( non working) positive will not power the offside ( working ) unit either, but the offside ( working )

positive will light up the nearside, so the nearside positive is the issue, the earth must be good

I will remove the tank and chase the positive feed, might be earthing slightly somewhere.

Will also swap the feeds from the flasher relay and see if the fault swaps side.

Bob


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

22Back to top Go down    SOLVED ...Indicator not working on Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:31 pm

audibob

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Platinum member
Platinum member
SOLVED at last... cheers

It usually is a simple fix....

Disconnected the flasher relay, contacts seemed very clean, but the flasher started working again when I

reconnected.affraid

Hey ho.

serves me right for thinking I had checked all the connectors, except those in the relay tray of course....

It is nice to have it working again, I love long night time rides in the dark, you cannot be visible enough these days

Thanks to all

Happy days

Bob


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

23Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:10 pm

duck

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Life time member
Life time member
It might not have been the connections. It could've been stuck in a glitch mode and disconnecting power to it allowed it to "reboot."

The flasher relay has two power supplies. One is switched (Pin 13 from Fuse 7) and the other is unswitched (Pin 11 from Fuse 3.) The unswitched power allows it to operate the hazard flashers when the bike is turned off - but the hazards must be turned on before the bike is turned off for that to work.


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

24Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:13 pm

mike d


Life time member
Life time member
Glad to hear it's sorted.

I would be giving the Relay and connecter a spray with a decent switch cleaner (not WD40).

Mike

    

25Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:47 pm

audibob

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Platinum member
Platinum member
Mike d

I sprayed the connector with an electrical cleaner.

Duck,

How and what is a glitch, and could it happen again given its 30 years old.


The fault appeared whilst I was riding.

Bob


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

26Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:55 am

audibob

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Platinum member
Platinum member
problem came back again.

Initially working after , but after 100 miles fault came back.

After bike was switched off for a couple of hours, it worked again, but failed again

on return journey.

I need to check blue/red wire at relay connector .

What amount of resistance should the be on the blue/red wire from the relay connector

and the bulb connector.

Is it worth opening the relay, and given I am no sparky, what might I be looking for.

I will get new fuses for 3 and 7 .

Anything else I could check, before buying a secondhand unit from motorworks

Bob


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

27Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:14 am

Stumpy

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active member
active member
I would look at the connectors themselves, check the good side for resistance and then the bad side. To check the relay, I would switch left and right hand indicators to see if the problem switches sides. If so I would suspect that the wire is broken in the loom, use a bypass form pin to relay to check it again.

    

28Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:25 am

duck

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Life time member
Life time member
@audibob wrote:problem came back again.

Initially working after , but after 100 miles fault came back.

After bike was switched off for a couple of hours, it worked again, but failed again

on return journey.

I need to check blue/red wire at relay connector .

What amount of resistance should the be on the blue/red wire from the relay connector

and the bulb connector.

Is it worth opening the relay, and given I am no sparky, what might I be looking for.

I will get new fuses for 3 and 7 .

Anything else I could check, before buying a secondhand unit from motorworks

Bob

In thinking about this further, this is probably a wiring problem, not a relay problem. If it were a relay problem then all three lights would exhibit the same behavior so they would all three hyperflash but it sounds like in your case the left front isn't working while the cluster indicator and left rear are hyperflashing.

Resistance: As Stumpy recommended, measure the resistance of the blue/black working side to find out what it should be a for a good circuit. Measure the resistance between the flasher relay connector and ground.


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

29Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:15 am

Laitch

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Life time member
Life time member
@audibob wrote:Anything else I could check, before buying a secondhand unit from motorworks
Did you perform the checks suggested below before your temporary success occurred? Did you clean the relay sockets with emery cloth and cleaner?

@Rick G wrote:Test the circuit and if there is 12v or ground by using a bulb of the correct wattage. A meter will show voltage but as soon as the bulb is put in the circuit there is a bad joint that stops the current flow.

@audibob wrote:I will remove the tank and chase the positive feed, might be earthing slightly somewhere.
Will also swap the feeds from the flasher relay and see if the fault swaps side.


__________________________________________________
1995 K75T 68,000 miles
    

30Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:58 pm

audibob

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Platinum member
Platinum member
Thank guys.

I must admit to hoping to see dirty / rusty contacts on the flasher relay, but it was really clean,

Cleaned and sprayed with electrical contact cleaner anyway.

As suggested , I will test the resistance for both positives from their relay connector.

To test the wiring from the relay to the bulb holder, I will run a spare wire and see what happens.

Do I test between each sides relay connector and ground with ignition off

Am no sparky, so, bear with me

I have other things on at the moment, so will report back in a few days


Bob


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

31Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:08 pm

duck

avatar
Life time member
Life time member
Power on or off won't matter as the current goes from the relay connector through the bulbs to ground. So just test the resistance with the power off.


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

32Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:11 pm

audibob

avatar
Platinum member
Platinum member
Thanks Duck.


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

33Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:32 am

audibob

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Platinum member
Platinum member
Cured.

Found higher resistance on nearside positive wiring

traced it to the connector under the tank.

The feed wire was a little kinked just out of the mid connector on the relay side

Bypassed with new wire and ok.

Not the relay as Duck correctly said....

Thanks for all inputs..

Bike is now on the blink...but in a good way..

Bob


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

34Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:15 pm

mike d


Life time member
Life time member
Glad to hear you have found a definite fault.

I did post:


In addition to that, looking at the diagram the relay output for say the nearside indicator (Blue Red) appears to have a connection point where the repeater bulb and front and rear indicator bulbs are connected. If that was high resistance then you could get the same symptoms.

Mike

    

35Back to top Go down    Indicator not working on Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:37 pm

audibob

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Platinum member
Platinum member
Hi Mike,

as you pointed out, the connector under the tank was a good place to look, it was always going to be the next thing

to check

I do not mind having to fault find, it is a 30 year old bike after all.

Not having a spare bike is a nuisance.

I regret not having a look at the k1100 you sold

Bob


__________________________________________________
Yamaha 90
Honda CD 175
Honda CB 360
Triumph T 140V Bonneville
Triumph T150 Trident
Honda CB750 F1
Cz 175
Yamaha XS 750
R 100/7
R 80
K100 LT
K100 LT current bike
    

36Back to top Go down    Re: Indicator not working on Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:28 am

mike d


Life time member
Life time member
It can be an interesting challenge tracing faults, but as you say old vehicles need a bit of TLC now and again. I was in telecoms for 40 years, so when I was 'in the field' tracing faults was a normal everyday event when commissioning telephone exchanges.

P.S. I haven't sold my K1100 (not even advertised it, so perhaps someone else?)

Mike

    

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