BMW K bikes (Bricks)

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1Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:42 pm

brickrider2

brickrider2
Life time member
Life time member
I'm back to dealing with the #!*%+* coolant/oil pump.  I followed the instructions for installing the rebuild kit to the letter - as far as I know - yet there is evidence of a coolant leak. I'm at a loss to understand where the mistake was made, but I'll give it another try.  I can apparently buy only the ceramic seal from the popular English parts supplier.  Since the other installed bits and bobs in the rebuild kit are virtually new, just replacing the ceramic seal should be sufficient, correct?
The weeping from the pump is slight, so I'll just pack a little coolant in the pannier during my Southwest tour next month. Upon my return I'll pull the pump apart again gurrrrrr  K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump 61740


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1996 K1100LT
    

2Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Re: K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:38 pm

brickrider2

brickrider2
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Further road testing has me worried about riding the bike on my tour next month in its present state.  I'll try to replace the leaking ceramic seal before April.  Mulling over what the problem with the last rebuild could be, I recall noticing that the then-new seal had only a slight amount of that blue goop around the edge.  It could be the reason it is now leaking.  I have some LocTite 515 anaerobic sealant that could be added to the blue goop that typically is on the seal.  Assuming I use a small amount that wouldn't gum up the works, is this a reasonable thing to do?  Can any downsides be lurking here that are not obvious to me? 
Thanks for your thoughts.


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

3Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Re: K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:38 pm

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
@brickrider2 wrote:Assuming I use a small amount that wouldn't gum up the works, is this a reasonable thing to do?  Can any downsides be lurking here that are not obvious to me? 
The downside is that you intend on proceeding with a second installation modifying it using assumption rather than using fact. You don't know why your seal failed. You might have deformed it slightly during installation. There might be a non-blue goop-related reason for the failure. What parts did you replace? Where did you obtain them? Which instructions, procedure or method did you use for installation?


__________________________________________________
1995 K75T 73,000 miles
K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Usa-lo10
    

4Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Re: K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:40 pm

Woodie

Woodie
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Brickrider I feel your pain.  It took me three tries to get the seal installed properly last year.  Seals 2&3 were purchased from a dealer here in Canada and were stupid expensive.  If adding the Loctite involves moving the seal then I'm not sure what kind of success you might have.  This seal is way too fragile for my liking.


__________________________________________________
1985 K100RT
52667
"Keep your stick on the ice.  We're all in this together."  Red Green
    

5Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Re: K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:40 am

brickrider2

brickrider2
Life time member
Life time member
"...you intend on proceeding with a second installation modifying it using assumption rather than using fact."


Well, I have no choice.  I must install another, mustn't I? It's impossible to pull that damned seal without destroying it, so there's no way I can see of determining what the "fact" behind the leak is. 
I installed a rebuild kit sourced from MotoBins.  I replaced all seals, replaced the spacer too.  I set the seals in place with a proper sized long reach socket; I don't see how either one could be set in there cocked one way or the other.  I lubed the smooth shaft prior to drawing it through the two seals.  There was no evidence that the walls of the pump body were scratched or scored.  Yet it leaks.  
So yes, I will proceed with a second installation.  The seal I'll use this time will come from BMW NA, if that makes any difference.  I'll decide on the LocTite 515 when I see the condition of the next seal. 
If worse comes to worse, I'll take the old Airhead next month, but I will have my Spring tour.   Very Happy


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1996 K1100LT
    

6Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Re: K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:00 am

RicK G

RicK G
VIP
VIP
You should never use a hammer to tap the coolant seal it is ceramic and much more delicate than grandmar's fine china and you wouldn't tap that with a hammer. Not saying you did but be careful and press it in in the jaws of a vise.


__________________________________________________
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."  from Mencken's 1919 Prejudices

Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

7Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Re: K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:08 pm

brickrider2

brickrider2
Life time member
Life time member
With a socket of the proper size, one could theoretically seat the ceramic seal with a mallet.  If the point of contact is the turned-out metal lip of the seal, little or no stress should impact the delicate bit.  With an abundance of caution, however, I did use a large c-clamp to press in this problematic seal.  Now I'm wondering why that design is even used in this application. Why not just go to the local bearing house and buy a more conventional seal, like the one found on the oil side of the pump?  Has no one ever done that?

As luck would have it, I'm now thinking of my third approach at rebuilding this pump. Surely there is a better way!

During rebuild attempt #2 the oil-side seal popped out of position as I drew the shaft through it.  In order to seat that anew, I'll have to remove the ceramic seal, which of course will destroy it.  

Is this karma?  Did I do something horrific in a past life?

If I recall correctly, a new pump is heart-stoppingly expensive, so I'm open to other options at this point in my adventure. 

Adventure Rider, indeed!


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

8Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Re: K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:16 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

92KK 84WW Olaf
Life time member
Life time member
How bad is the leak? Reason I ask is when I had the K100RT new seal in my very knowledgeable ex BMW friend told me to keep an eye on it as it had a slight coolant drip. It cleared up and has done many many miles since.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Alaska Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 58,645 now 96,650 miles
1983 K100RS 0011175 Fricka 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell
    

9Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Re: K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:40 pm

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
@brickrider2 wrote:Well, I have no choice.  I must install another, mustn't I? It's impossible to pull that damned seal without destroying it, so there's no way I can see of determining what the "fact" behind the leak is. Very Happy
There's always choice. Somebody else could install it for you. Smile

It's obviously a delicate operation whether we like it or not. This site's instructions for installation are certainly comprehensive. Many of us fail at first attempt. It's death struggle of love.


__________________________________________________
1995 K75T 73,000 miles
K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Usa-lo10
    

10Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Re: K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:05 pm

Dai

Dai
Life time member
Life time member
Currently I'm running 3-to-2, with good installs just about in the lead. For now. Very Happy


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

11Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Re: K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:53 pm

Woodie

Woodie
Life time member
Life time member
...death struggle of love.

Pretty much sums it up I think.  After failing to succeed the second time I contacted a non-dealer vintage BMW guy.  I asked him what it would cost to install the seal if I removed the pump, prepped it and then dropped it off to him with the new seal.  First he informed me that I hadn't used his correct email.  Then he said that he would drain and flush the system and do a bunch of other things as well.  I figured if he was incapable of reading an email which contained the specifics of what I needed then there was no way I would trust him to work on the pump.  

The up shot of all this is that the ceramic seal has been the only thing that I have encountered so far (not saying there aren't more surprises in store) that has been this problematic.  Everything else that I have done to the K has been a fantastic learning experience and the end result has been a bike that hasn't gone to pieces at speed with me on it.  If nothing else then the whole excercise is great for developing perseverance.


__________________________________________________
1985 K100RT
52667
"Keep your stick on the ice.  We're all in this together."  Red Green
    

12Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Coolant leak on Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:29 pm

daveyson

daveyson
Silver member
Silver member
As Olaf asks how bad is the leak? 

Could it be leaking somewhere else as well? Have you ridden it much lately? My brick hasn't shown one drop of coolant leaking,  but since I stopped riding it two months ago,  I now see just a drop at the weep hole. I will keep an eye on it when I ride again in a month,  and hope it goes away. But if the leak remains, and is say one drop a day, I'll probably just ignore it.

Sometimes it helps to have a container under it,  to see how bad it is.


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11/1985 bmw k100rt (late model)  Vin. 0090567
    

13Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Re: K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:57 pm

RicK G

RicK G
VIP
VIP
I had a disaster with a seal a while ago and the pump is still siting in the tray I haven't pulled it apart to find where I went wrong.
When you pull the shaft through the ceramic seal a very cautious approach is needed so as not to pull it too far which puts too much pressure on the ceramic surfaces. The last bit of the pull should be done with the spacer and impeller in place that way it cant be drawn too far through.


__________________________________________________
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."  from Mencken's 1919 Prejudices

Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

14Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Re: K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:39 pm

TacKler

TacKler
Life time member
Life time member
+1 on what Rick says.  

I have done a few now and have print outs of a couple of different methods but somehow I always bugger up the ceramic seal on the first attempt.  As a result I always have TWO ceramic seals on hand when fixing a leak.  

You need to be scrupulously clean on mating surfaces and if in doubt, do it again.


__________________________________________________
Red 1991 K75S
    

15Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Coolant/oil pump seals on Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:43 am

brickrider2

brickrider2
Life time member
Life time member
"How bad is the leak?"  
That is a question I should have taken up before I started down this road.  The leak was very slight.  With 20/20 hindsight, I can say emphatically that it should have been observed rather than "fixed". 
The pump is on the workbench.  I have one more ceramic seal on hand.  If I screw this up for a third time I'll be out of time and parts.  The old reliable airhead will take me on the Spring Tour. 
Here is my modified game plan.  I will be very careful in cleaning the pump interior; I will pay extra close attention to the condition of the wall where the oil seal seats; I will put some lube on the lip of that seal, and in the bore of the ceramic seal, as well.  I will use a c-clamp to set the latter seal in place (certainly not a mallet!) I will be certain to draw the last small bit travel of the shaft through the seals with the spacer and impeller in place.  
What have I left out here? Burning incense? Chants and prayers? Feng Shui?


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

16Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Re: K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:13 am

RicK G

RicK G
VIP
VIP
@brickrider2 wrote:What have I left out here? Burning incense? Chants and prayers? Feng Shui?
The chicken dance you forgot the chicken dance.
K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Do_the10


__________________________________________________
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."  from Mencken's 1919 Prejudices

Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

17Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Re: K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:10 am

Woodie

Woodie
Life time member
Life time member
And don't forget to use the Force...


__________________________________________________
1985 K100RT
52667
"Keep your stick on the ice.  We're all in this together."  Red Green
    

18Back to top Go down   K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump Empty Re: K1100LT Coolant/oil Pump on Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:33 am

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
Life time member
@Woodie wrote:And don't forget to use the Force...
...but not too much of it.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS
1988 K100RS SE

Past:
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

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