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1Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Oil leak/timing cover on Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:46 am

brickrider2

brickrider2
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There is a slight but persistent oil leak from the timing cover on my 1995 K1100LT.  I read the BMW service bulletin reproduced in the tech pages.  I don't understand it at all. Can someone put that in English for me?  Better yet, describe a remedy that stopped such a leak in their bike. Thanks.


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1996 K1100LT
    

2Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty engine oil leak on Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:12 pm

brickrider2

brickrider2
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I've never been able to find the service bulletin I mentioned, and now I'm wondering if I inadvertently slipped into a parallel universe for a moment.  Shocked  So, what to do now?  I just completed my last tour of the year - about 2500 miles of Utah, Arizona, Colorado and a tiny bit of Wyoming.  When I returned home the underside of the engine and transmission were well-oiled. So, what to do now? My strategy at this point is to remove and reseal the timing chain case. I'll forego the Loctite 505 (?) sealer and return to my tried-and-true Permatex goop for another try at making the case oil tight. 
The shop manual speaks of the special tool to secure the t-chain tensioner when the cover is removed.  Is this an item sold at the dealer?  Alternatively, can someone supply the dimensions so I can work up something myself to do the job?  TIA


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1996 K1100LT
    

3Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:59 pm

Woodie

Woodie
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Ahhh crap there's a special tool for the chain tensioner?  I have had the timing cover off way too many times and have even messed with the chain tensioner.  So far that hasn't presented itself as a problem.  Perhaps ignorance on my part is bliss....


__________________________________________________
1985 K100RT
52667
"Keep your stick on the ice.  We're all in this together."  Red Green
    

4Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:14 pm

Arlina

Arlina
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You can take the cover off without a problem (except dripping oil).
Maybe neccecary when you have to take the cams out.


__________________________________________________
Oil leak/timing cover Eu-log10  K1100RS/LT - R1200RT - R1100RS (RIP) - Cagiva SST 350 Ala Verde
    

5Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:04 pm

RicK G

RicK G
VIP
VIP
The tool is used to hold the tensioner when the cams are removed to change the shim buckets and is not needed when the cover is removed. I use a small zip cable tie to hold the tensioner retracted until the chain and cams are back in then snip the tie and remove it.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

6Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:20 pm

duck

duck
Life time member
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Where exactly is the oil leaking? Are you sure it's not coming from the water/oil pump?


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
98 Taxi Cab K1200RS
14 K1600GT
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

7Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:14 pm

brickrider2

brickrider2
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The exact source of the oil leak is not clear at this time.  However, I am certain it is not the coolant/oil pump drain hole.  It has to be further up on the engine.  The leaking oil is able to run down the inside surface of the left side fairing. I had a brief look before I washed the bugs off this morning.  I'll need to remove some fairing bits for a better look, but at this point I think the oil is escaping at the seam of the head and block.  I'd removed the cams to set the valves when I first received the bike, so there is a chance a retorque of the head will cure this.  I'm struggling to feel optimistic though.  When I first pulled the fairing off for that work I found oil on the fairing exactly where is it running down now.  This leak had been there for some time, with the previous owner.  He forgot to mention this when we were negotiating.  Oil leak/timing cover 177381


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

8Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:31 pm

MartinW

MartinW
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In order to find oil leaks, first thoroughly clean all suspect areas and let them dry. Next using spray on talc spray in your favourite fragrance the spray the suspect areas. Leave for awhile and any leaks should show on the talc. 
Regards Martin.


__________________________________________________
K75s Hybrid
    

9Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:51 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

92KK 84WW Olaf
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@brickrider2 wrote:The exact source of the oil leak is not clear at this time.  However, I am certain it is not the coolant/oil pump drain hole.  It has to be further up on the engine.  The leaking oil is able to run down the inside surface of the left side fairing. I had a brief look before I washed the bugs off this morning.  I'll need to remove some fairing bits for a better look, but at this point I think the oil is escaping at the seam of the head and block.  I'd removed the cams to set the valves when I first received the bike, so there is a chance a retorque of the head will cure this.  I'm struggling to feel optimistic though.  When I first pulled the fairing off for that work I found oil on the fairing exactly where is it running down now.  This leak had been there for some time, with the previous owner.  He forgot to mention this when we were negotiating.  Oil leak/timing cover 177381
Seam of head and block is a long way in......is it possible its coming from the seam of the cam cover and the head? My K100 was weeping a little there when I used fully synthetic oil, stopped when I went back to semi synthetic. Has it only happened after the valve clearance work you did or was it there before it? I know you are saying it was there but.....I found it took 2 attempts to get these covers back on oil tight, one time the right hand cover took me 3 attempts.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Alaska Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 100,380 miles
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell No 33,600 miles
    

10Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:05 pm

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
@brickrider2 wrote:I'd removed the cams to set the valves when I first received the bike, so there is a chance a retorque of the head will cure this.Oil leak/timing cover 177381
The cylinder head-to-block bolts aren't involved in the removal and replacement of camshafts so energy might be better invested elsewhere.

If any oil is on the mating surfaces when a gasket or sealant is applied then covers are bolted to the head or block, oil leaks are likely to occur.


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 73,000 miles
Oil leak/timing cover Usa-lo10
    

11Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:10 am

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
just to add

a pretty common location for oil leaks is the joint between the head and timing cover  under the cam cover ...always seems to have a slight leak there where the surfaces don't line up "just right "

in the process of solving that issue myself at the moment , its nothing new to me  ...just forgot that im using old gaskets which harden up after a lot of years and don't flex the way new ones do around that area .

but sounds like a typical sealant issue between faces of the cover plates

there is always a good reason to use a high quality  and oil resistant sealant in those situations ....don't rush it , and don't use too much sealant , just a smear is all that is required , let the sealant cure for a good few hours , oil free , then fit faces together loosely .  evenly tightening up after a short time .

good luck


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OOil leak/timing cover Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

12Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:55 am

brickrider2

brickrider2
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Life time member
Good advice, all. Thanks. 
Weather permitting, I'll pull the fairing panel off today and have a closer look at things.  I'm also told that there are some vent (?) hoses on the upper part of the engine that could be disconnected or cracked, allowing oil vapors to escape. I plan to pull the tank to check if that is true. There does seem to be a fair amount of oil on the rear of the engine where it mates with the transmission.  I have a new valve cover gasket to be installed, but I am doubtful that will cure the leak.  Still, after all these years and new gasket can only be a good thing, right?


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

13Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:07 pm

duck

duck
Life time member
Life time member
Is there oil coming out of the weep hole at the middle bottom where the bellhousing meets the transmission?


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
98 Taxi Cab K1200RS
14 K1600GT
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

14Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:15 pm

walfish

walfish
Life time member
Life time member
Spot on Olaf, I had 3 attempts at this on my K1100, finally solved this using Drei-Bond pushed into the seam before applying on mating surfaces. So far no leaks.


__________________________________________________
Oil leak/timing cover Uk-log10 88 K 100  0033026 
   
                            92 K 1100 LT  6455097
    

15Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:44 pm

brickrider2

brickrider2
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Life time member
@duck wrote:Is there oil coming out of the weep hole at the middle bottom where the bellhousing meets the transmission?
No sign of oil there.  The most likely source of the leak is up and to the left of the engine.


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

16Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:53 am

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
@brickrider2 wrote: The most likely source of the leak is up and to the left of the engine.
This hose connected from the engine block to the oil separator in the air box might be defective or detached.
Oil leak/timing cover K1100_12


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 73,000 miles
Oil leak/timing cover Usa-lo10
    

17Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:22 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

92KK 84WW Olaf
Life time member
Life time member
If that hose is defective you will get oil.

The good news is just fix the hose, no more needed.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Alaska Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 100,380 miles
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell No 33,600 miles
    

18Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:16 pm

brickrider2

brickrider2
Life time member
Life time member
I've now pulled off enough fairing bits to find the source of the oil leak.  It's from the bottom center of the timing cover.  From there, gravity draws the oil down the left side of the cover to the point where it drips onto the fairing and then to the ground.  The cover needs to be removed and resealed and since I was the last person to be in there, I'm the guilty party for causing the leak.  That said, I find it interesting that the leak existed at the time I bought the bike -- same spot on the fairing and timing cover.  In looking at the mating surface of the cover, I notice that there are troughs or grooves on the center mating edge, on both the top and bottom of the cover. These effectively reduce the surface area that needs to be sealed if the cover is to remain oil tight.  Another observation: it's surprising that the cover presents any challenge at all to making it oil tight, as the cavity behind it seems to be subjected to oil splash only.  
If the weather is decent next week, I should have this all taken care of  Oil leak/timing cover 723598  just in time to put the ol' girl away for the winter.  Rolling Eyes


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

19Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:34 pm

MartinW

MartinW
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Use a straight edge or a good quality steel ruler and check for warping in multiple directions.
Regards Martin.


__________________________________________________
K75s Hybrid
    

20Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:11 am

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
Brickrider2 referred to an incomprehensible service bulletin that could be describing his engine's leak. This is it . If the term locating dowel is substituted for sleeve, the following conclusion could be drawn, if you were me feeling the effect of Dominican coffee by the liter.

To eliminate the step in the joint between the crankcase and the head, in a certain production run the holes in the cylinder head to receive the locating dowels were drilled slightly larger so the cover faces of the engine and head could align. An unintended consequence was that a subtle shift of the head during a new engine's initial running-in period would sometimes occur. That movement was enough to crack sealant between the joined parts and the cover which then created an oil leak.

The first solution was to reseal the surfaces. Because movement of the head occurred during running-in, no further movement was expected because the parts had bedded. In some cases, resealing worked but then failed the next time the cover was removed and resealed. Success seemed faith-based and luck- or sealant-quality dependent.

BMW's second solution was to install locating dowels that were a tighter fit in the head to prevent the shift that cracked the sealant. This required the outside dowel dimension inserted into the head to be a larger dimension than the end inserted into the case—stepped. The closer fit prevented the slip. In the attached diagram, the red arrow indicates the locating dowel. The fiche lists two dowels are required. The blue arrow indicates where the second dowel could fit although a position in the same horizontal run as the first might be more likely. The second image is the fiche parts list. It indicates original dowel is unavailable but the stepped dowel is available and two are required.
Oil leak/timing cover K1100_13 Oil leak/timing cover K1100_14

Here we are, maybe. Special attention to sealing is the way to go if the least effort is attractive—an adaptation many members have apparently embraced.  Smile  Otherwise, remove the head then replace the dowels.  Sleep


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 73,000 miles
Oil leak/timing cover Usa-lo10
    

21Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:00 pm

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
Have you considered the seal in the timing chain cover which is behind the timing gear. This is normally replaced when you do the timing chain but it can easily be damaged when removing the cover if you don't know it's there.
#2 in the parts diagram oem #11147654531

Oil leak/timing cover Diag_w3


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
  Oil leak/timing cover Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

22Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:16 pm

brickrider2

brickrider2
Life time member
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When I disassembled the ignition unit in the course of removing the t-chain cover I found all was dry and oil-free there.  I couldn't find any obvious cause of the leak from the cover.  That is to say, no scratches or groves in the mating surfaces, no place where I missed applying the Loctite sealer.  Neither could I measure any warping of the cover with a straight edge.  That being the case, I just cleaned up the parts and used an different sealing compound.  I think it is oil tight now, but the proof will come only after I run the bike for an extended time.  The leak was always slight and it never was obvious with just a short run of the engine. 
As an aside, I have a question.  Some reference has been made to a gasket being there in the Haynes shop manual.  There was no gasket on my bike, and I wonder if that was an item only found on the K100 models.  Anyone know? If the K1100LT continues to leak, I may make a gasket for this application.



Last edited by brickrider2 on Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

23Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:32 pm

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
@brickrider2 wrote: Some reference has been made to a gasket begin there in the Haynes shop manual.  There was no gasket on my bike, and I wonder if that was an item only found on the K100 models.  . . . If the K1100LT continues to leak, I may make a gasket for this application.
There seems to be no reference to such a gasket for any classic Brick model in the US parts fiches I've viewed. There is no reference to it in the online 1988 BMW Repair Manual 2V models—only the use of Dreibond sealant. The is no reference to the gasket in the service bulletin describing the timing cover leak or the solutions brought to bear on it. So far, the only place I've seen a reference is the same place you viewed it—the timing cover diagram and in the text of Chapter 4 in Haynes/Clymer manual. In my copy, references are on pp.89, 90 and had a models so equipped qualifier in the diagram's legend. It could be the unicorn of BMW gasketry. Smile

If you end up making such a gasket, its material and the outcome after deploying it is certain to interest some members here.


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 73,000 miles
Oil leak/timing cover Usa-lo10
    

24Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:27 pm

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
There has never been a gasket for the timing chain cover. I use Permatex black.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
  Oil leak/timing cover Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

25Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:27 pm

brickrider2

brickrider2
Life time member
Life time member
My "last tour of the year" disclosed that I've failed to fix the oil leak on the K1100LT.  Further tests and observation has me convinced that the problem is a warped timing cover.  To recap somewhat, I've used two different products to seal the mating surface, but neither has stopped the leak.  In fact, my light application of the Permatex goop resulted in it leaking with greater enthusiasm.   Crying or Very sad
I don't have a surface plate nor a pane of glass with which to locate/measure any warped spot on the timing cover.  I'm therefore drawn to making a gasket to put an end to this endless repairing.  A friend - a retired mechanic - says no to that idea.  However, he's never explained why a gasket isn't a good solution to this problem.  What are the downside(s) of fitting a gasket on the timing cover?  Anybody have opinions about that?
As always, I'm grateful for advice and learning of others' experience.


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

26Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:49 pm

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
@brickrider2 wrote:I'm therefore drawn to making a gasket to put an end to this endless repairing.  A friend - a retired mechanic - says no to that idea.  However, he's never explained why a gasket isn't a good solution to this problem.  Anybody have opinions about that?
Use email or telephone to ask your friend for an explanation of his reasoning.

If the cover is warped or twisted, trying to seal surface contact by using a gasket could encourage over-tightening of fasteners, resulting in stripped threads. If it isn't warped or twisted, a gasket's efficacy will depend upon its material. Repair might not be endless. Smile

If this were my engine's problem, I'd find some Drei Bond 1209–the product recommended in BMW's K1100 repair manual—then use it. Multiple attempts at sealing these surfaces is not unusual. Cleaning surfaces thoroughly, applying sealant correctly, and deftly installing covers can take patience, experience and luck.


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 73,000 miles
Oil leak/timing cover Usa-lo10
    

27Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:23 pm

volador

volador
Silver member
Silver member
or use 3-Bond 1184 sealant

Warm up the sealant slightly, clean surfaces with lacquer thinner or acetone or naphta
Apply a nice bead
Hand tighten the bolts
Let cure for 12-24 hours
Snug down till you feel sweat on your brow

https://www.amazon.com/Three-Bond-Sealant-Liquid-Gasket/dp/B007TWXI1K/ref=pd_sbs_263_t_1/146-2606257-3465634?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B007TWXI1K&pd_rd_r=a79ce89a-17f0-428e-a2ab-e580bacf85cf&pd_rd_w=AT9ef&pd_rd_wg=IBIJL&pf_rd_p=5cfcfe89-300f-47d2-b1ad-a4e27203a02a&pf_rd_r=EVW60DBJBXB4KRYFXX6K&psc=1&refRID=EVW60DBJBXB4KRYFXX6K


__________________________________________________
1984 K100RS  1991 K100RS  Reap The Wild Wind... Ever Commute Is An Adventure
    

28Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:44 pm

brickrider2

brickrider2
Life time member
Life time member
"Snug down till you feel sweat on your brow"


I believe the spec for those fasteners is 60-62 in./pounds.  I used the lesser of those numbers when I put it together twice. I really don't do Heilcoils if I can avoid them!


Subsequent discussion with my friend who is a proper mechanic lead me to understand his reasoning better.  A gasket should not be used because the engine was not designed for the use of a gasket there. 


As for casting about for another brand of sealant, I have no doubt there are many that would do the job if the cover was truly flat.  I used two that are well known and from a reputable manufacturer.  I followed the directions for their use to the letter. The only difference in the two results is that less sealant made the leak worse. 


I've never had difficulty sealing mating surfaces of various engines in the past, so this particular cover is vexing, to say the least.  I'm going to pull two fasteners that are dripping oil and see if the threads are wet.  Maybe there is one or more small cracks in the cover at those points. 


I'm still sitting on the fence as to whether I should make a gasket.  I have a roll of .08mm gasket paper on hand, so....


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

29Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:08 pm

volador

volador
Silver member
Silver member
I bet you a profiterole and espresso or a glass Lagavulin 16 the cover is not warped or twisted

Try the 3-Bond its more viscous and once cured sealed up my oil pan cover that had been gouged with a screwdriver

Save the paper for arts and crafts with some youngins


__________________________________________________
1984 K100RS  1991 K100RS  Reap The Wild Wind... Ever Commute Is An Adventure
    

30Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:31 pm

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
Life time member
Volador has given you the proper technique for getting the best seal. 

Apply a consistent bead of sealant around the cover.  Allow the bead to cure for 10-15 minutes to get a little skin on the sealant.  Carefully offer up the cover being careful not to disturb the bead.  Install the screws loosely and then screw them in in stages until you can see the sealant just beginning to be squeezed out of the seam.  STOP!  Let the sealant cure for a couple days before finally torquing the cover screws.

Tightening the cover screws on fresh sealant just squeezes it all out of the places where it needs to be.

When you have the cover torqued, take the bike out for a ride to get it to run for a while at operating temperature.  Let it cool and check the torque on the screws.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS
1988 K100RS SE

Past:
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

31Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:48 pm

brickrider2

brickrider2
Life time member
Life time member
I managed to find a tube of Drei Bond 1209- not so easy here in Boise, Idaho.  Because I've had a few failures in trying to get an oil-tight seal on the timing cover, I'm paying very close attention to all aspects of my work, including advice offered here.  Proper technique has been suggested that is consistent with anaerobic sealants.  It could well be that Drei Bond is not in that class.  From the package itself I quote, in part: 

... lay on new sealing line thin and mount parts;
immediately tighten up to 5 bar; heat and oil contact speed up curing; after 1 hour 50% of final strength; after 6 to 24 hours final strength....

I struggle to understand the direction to immediately tighten up to 5 bar.  I never use bar as a measure of anything so I consulted a conversion app.  That seems to be another way to say 72 psi. (?)  

I guess that exposure to heat and oil as a factor to speed curing could be consistent with an anaerobic sealant, but the word anaerobic never appears on the product.


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

32Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:58 pm

Dai

Dai
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> immediately tighten up to 5 bar

I interpret that as tighten the components to whatever is advised but don't exceed five bar - probably because at that point the sealant will start to break down under pressure. If it's any help, I have Threebond sealing the oil pump cover at the front of the bike. It's never leaked and of course, torque is only somewhere in the region of run the screws in and then nip them up one-eighth of a turn (8-10 psi-ish?).


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

33Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:46 pm

Laitch

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@brickrider2 wrote:immediately tighten up to 5 bar . . .

I struggle to understand the direction to immediately tighten up to 5 bar.  I never use bar as a measure of anything so I consulted a conversion app.  That seems to be another way to say 72 psi. (?)  
Bar would be used as a measurement to fill tires with air. It is a measurement of atmospheric pressure used by different countries around the world. The torque applied to fasteners is usually measured in inch/pounds, foot/pounds or Newton meters, not in atmospheric pressure. It would be helpful to see a photo of those instructions. As Dai has indicated, the turning force on those bolts is only 8 ft/lbs or 12 Newton-meters.

Regardless, cleanliness when applying the sealant is essential. Let the stuff skim over then follow .75's, Volador's or Dai's guidelines. I've given what I use a half-hour then bolted up to finish—no leaks, but the joints involved on my moto weren't subject to production problems like certain of the K1100 Bricks experienced.


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 73,000 miles
Oil leak/timing cover Usa-lo10
    

34Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:03 am

Holister

Holister
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I've done three timing chains and used Permatex black on all three. Surfaces have to be scrupulously clean. I apply a thin layer to only one side. Mate the surfaces and finger tighten the cover screws. Wait 30 min then torque. Wait 24 hours before adding oil and running engine. No leaks.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
  Oil leak/timing cover Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

35Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:34 pm

brickrider2

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What kind of challenges will I face when replacing the oil seal behind the HES unit? The seal is no. 2 in the illustration. Special tools?  Techniques?
Oil leak/timing cover Dbvis-3689925277591161270


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

36Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Oil Leak/timing cover on Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:19 pm

Tom FKR

Tom FKR
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G'day , that seal behind the hall sensor cover is easily pressed into place using a drill press. Or it can be easily tapped into place using a right sized socket. No special tools required.
Cheers
Tom


__________________________________________________
1986 K100RT Ex Police (Slightly modified)
2010 BMW F650GS Twin
1992 R100R
    

37Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:33 pm

Holister

Holister
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Yep, a drill press is best. Just make sure its well supported and level so that the seal goes in square.

The timing chain kit from Motorworks doesn't come with the seal but it does with the one from Motobins. You can buy the seal separately from MW if needed.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
  Oil leak/timing cover Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

38Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:42 am

brickrider2

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I'd planned to go to the local bearing supplier for the oil seal.  Or, is it some odd size that only BMW supplies?
I'm surprised at the recommendation to use a drill press for this work.  The oil seal in my 1995 K1100LT remains in the engine when the timing chain cover is removed. I consulted the parts fiche and I see the oil seal is shown fitting into the timing chain cover.  In order to replace it then, I pry it out of the engine, but install it in the cover, spring facing the engine?


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

39Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:56 am

charlie99

charlie99
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if you were doing other works as well , like timing chain guides and chain with the cover removed in entirety .... then its easy to manage like that ,,, as tom says, once removed  the drill press will do a nice job of installing the seal square into the cover .

but I have replaced the seal without removal of the cover a couple of times as more than a few others may have done
good luck with the works


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OOil leak/timing cover Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

40Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:39 am

Holister

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@brickrider2 wrote:.....
The oil seal in my 1995 K1100LT remains in the engine when the timing chain cover is removed. I consulted the parts fiche and I see the oil seal is shown fitting into the timing chain cover.  In order to replace it then, I pry it out of the engine, but install it in the cover, spring facing the engine?
I don't see how it would remain in the engine. Its a force fit into the back of the TC cover. The seal rubber simply slides over the end of the crankshaft when the cover goes on. Pull the cover off and the seal comes with it.

You can reuse the seal if you're careful when taking the cover off and back on providing its in ok condition.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
  Oil leak/timing cover Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

41Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:25 am

mike d

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That seal can be obtained in the old style (with a spring) and a later Teflon lipped version.

The Teflon version needs to have the lip 'set' so that on installation it is facing in to the engine.

If it is just pressed in the lip will form facing outwards.

The BMW tool sets the lip correctly prior to installation.

MIke

    

42Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:17 pm

brickrider2

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After many attempts, I finally managed to get the timing chain cover oil-tight.  If I can change that oil seal without removing the cover first it would be wonderful.  I really have no desire to risk refitting the cover again.  Every time I removed and refit the cover, the oil seal remained in the engine.  It never came out with the timing chain cover. 

If the new style oil seal needs a special tool to install it properly, maybe the older one is the best option for me.

Thanks for the advice and counsel!


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

43Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:38 pm

Laitch

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@brickrider2 wrote:After many attempts, I finally managed to get the timing chain cover oil-tight.  If I can change that oil seal without removing the cover first it would be wonderful.
If you've run the engine and the seal hasn't leaked oil onto the Hall sensors, why change it?

Teflon seals have been installed successfully using pill containers to pre-form the seal openings so they pass smoothly over shafts without distorting their edges—no special tool required.


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 73,000 miles
Oil leak/timing cover Usa-lo10
    

44Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:26 pm

brickrider2

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"If you've run the engine and the seal hasn't leaked oil onto the Hall sensors, why change it?

Teflon seals have been installed successfully using pill containers to pre-form the seal openings so they pass smoothly over shafts without distorting their edges—no special tool required."


I had wondered how many times I could remove and refit the t-chain cover before I screwed up the oil seal.  I found out.  The refit that finally fixed the oil escaping from the cover's flange was also the refit that finished the oil seal.  Now oil leaks from that T-shaped ignition cover. 

If a pill container could be used to properly set the oil seal, perhaps a piece of 35 mm film may work as well.  As long as the seal is to be set in the cover, it looks do-able.

Thanks for the tip(s).


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

45Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:14 pm

Laitch

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@brickrider2 wrote:If a pill container could be used to properly set the oil seal, perhaps a piece of 35 mm film may work as well.
Please explain how you'll do that.


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 73,000 miles
Oil leak/timing cover Usa-lo10
    

46Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:48 pm

brickrider2

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A strip of film could be used in the same way a tube could be used.  One could think of it as a tube with variable walls.  One may be able to wrap the film around the lip of the seal, slide the seal into place, then withdraw the film while the seal remains in the bore.  Film is thin and slippery.  It seems like a plausible work-around when the factory tool is not at hand. 
Or not.   Surprised

If your suggestion for using a pill canister was meant to substitute for a seal driver, we are not on the same page.  At this point, I am unclear on what is possible/probable.  As I stated, when I withdraw the cover on my bike the seal remains in the engine.  I don't have a clear idea on how deep the seal is situated in the cover, nor where it should be when it is in place sealing the crank against oil entering the ignition cavity.


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

47Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:27 pm

brickrider2

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charlie99, could you please explain the steps you took to remove the old, defective oil seal while the timing chain cover was in place?  TIA


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

48Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:23 am

charlie99

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the seal - older style is about 6- 7 mm across the seal face between the crank and the timing cover
I just drilled the seal face with a 2.5mm drill in a few places around the seal  ......carefully  and wound in a couple of 6 gauge x 50mm long  tech screws

which leaves the head of the screw above the hall sensor plate surface ....a bit of metal across that let me use a claw hammer to lift the seal out  the hammer riding against the scrap metal , slowly and carefully and it popped out one side  then the other


there may have been some seal material that got into the sump during that process but I changed and flushed the oil after finishing all works and before attempting a start

to install , I have an old set of fairly deep well sockets with some fairly big ones in there ...I just chose a socket that neatly fitted near the outer edge of the seal , and hammered it in using a rubber hammer ....fortunately it went in fairly straight ...no leaks after


hope that helps


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OOil leak/timing cover Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

49Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:49 am

Laitch

Laitch
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@brickrider2 wrote:A strip of film could be used in the same way a tube could be used.  One could think of it as a tube with variable walls. 

If your suggestion for using a pill canister was meant to substitute for a seal driver, we are not on the same page. 
You weren't on the same page as my post if confused about the tube's function. Smile

A tube is used to pre-form the Teflon seal because its lip needs manipulation to seat correctly on the shaft. The tool will push the seal lip to slope it inward on the shaft toward the engine when it is installed then the tube is withdrawn. There are at least two articulate posts on the site describing methods. One of them doesn't use a tube at all but rather uses a drift to push the seal lip over the chamfered end of the shaft. Posts are this one and this one. Here is a service bulletin describing the differences. Attached is a diagram from the bulletin.
Oil leak/timing cover Exampl11
The arrow on the lower portion of the diagram shows the spring within the earlier seal.


Development of installation innovation might need to wait until there is a clear understanding of the Teflon seal and how it engages the shaft. Maybe you'll come across the earlier spring-type seal; I believe it would be easier for you to install correctly. If only a Teflon-style is available, I would install it dry on smooth clean surfaces. Some members have used a skim coating of oil on the shaft and cover surfaces.

Be focused on not marring mating surfaces when extracting the existing seal.


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 73,000 miles
Oil leak/timing cover Usa-lo10
    

50Back to top Go down   Oil leak/timing cover Empty Re: Oil leak/timing cover on Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:07 pm

brickrider2

brickrider2
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Much appreciated info, guys!  I'm off in search of the spring-type seal today.  That will be a known item, and I'm less likely to need three of 'em! Thanks.   cheers


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

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