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1Back to top Go down    engine oil in water reservoir on Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:01 pm

charlie99


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Life time member
hi guys ...

an issue that has been with me for a while .

i have engine oil in my water reservoir ,

first thing that comes to mind is that i have an oil pump seal leakage to the water pump .

its kinda a mind bender this one as i havent done my waterpump seal replacement and not familiar with the possibilities of the leak being somewhere else ...like head gasket ...(shudder )

the leak itself isnt both ways ...ie: there is definatly no water in the oil of the sump

the breather at the bottom of the oil/water pump seems to be clean ....but that doesnt preclude it being blocked , discguising the problem .

i imagine the oil pump would have enough presure to bleed into the water system , given that the oil pump shaft seal was knackered

this has been happening for some time i imagine, it doesnt seem to be getting worse .

is my thinking right ? water -oil pump refurbish required .

ill probe the drain hole tommorrow to see if in fact its clear (someone couldnt have possibly blocked it could they ?)

i cant think of another location where a possible track may have developed between these 2 systems

thoughts please gents


2Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:28 pm

K-BIKE


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The drain hole when damp with oil tends to promote dust sticking to the oil which builds up in a cake as more oil and dust mix. Run a small drill held between your fingers rolling it round to screw any oil cake out rather than pushing it inside.

The oil is at high pressure when it is running, far higher than the water which even at high temperature the water pressure does not get above around 10psi or whatever the pressure venting cap is set at, not much when compared to the maximum pressure the oil pump can build up.

Water/oil pump leaks seem more common than cylinder head leaks but those are not unknown. Due to the fact we don't know who worked on our bikes before the head could have been off. I know that BMW do recommend where there is a leak to put a film of 2 bond gasket cement around the oil holes where they pass through the cylinder head gasket.
Regards,
K-BIKE


3Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:36 pm

charlie99


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could be k-bike ...i seem to recall many months ago i did see some slight weep of oil from there ...but i didnt investigate it much further as there was in fact other oil seal issues that i was still trying to cleanup .

ill get the drill out and clean it up .....with fingers crossed

2.5 mm do the job ?

how far should i expect to see it go in ...?


4Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:07 pm

K-BIKE


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I cannot remember, it was small and don't run it in more than about 10 mm, just through the thickness of the casting. I have the fairing under my engine so it needs a bit of rearranging the garage and moving SWMBO's car out to get it off before I could try the drill. Start with 2.5 use the largest drill that fits without drilling any metal out.

Once you have found and fixed the leak then you can flush the cooling system to remove the oil traces. Mercedes have an oil removing detergent as an official spare part they recommend for flushing the cooling system before refilling with fresh antifreeze mix. Up in Brisbane unless you intend parking overnight in the Aussie ski fields you can safely run on only 40% antifreeze to tap water mix.
Regards,
K-BIKE


5Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:14 pm

charlie99


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yep thats the go k-bike, i usually use the concentrate type , which mixes up about 40 % from memory ...depending on the season there is heavy settling compounds added to our water ....and we have had a lot of rain recently ...demineralized water is a far safer bet and cheep .

cool about 10 mm ...thanks,


_________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O

6Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:39 pm

Avenger GT


Gold member
Gold member
Charlie, the symptoms you describe are exactly the same as my bike was. Poking a drill bit up the drain hole may not reveal any leak if the blockage goes all the way up into the pump body, as it was on mine. When I removed the pump the drain hole in it was blocked solid with corrosion and I had to drill it out. I also had to drill the hole in the main casing when the pump was off the engine. I wound up replacing the pump with a new one.


7Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:52 pm

blaKey


Life time member
Life time member
The reservoir under the seat Charlie?

I'd take that out and clean it up and check the hose between the radiator cap and the reservoir to see if anything is amiss. Put it all back together and keep an eye on it.
Take the radiator cap off and see the condition of the fluid.

Those would be the cheapest and easiest options to start with (along with what K-BIKE and Avenger GT have suggested).


_________________
Neil
K100RS 1986
K100RT 1987
Riding anything is better than riding nothing.

8Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:19 pm

charlie99


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Life time member
cheers guys ...i guess ill be doing the refurbishment ....a few months ago i had got all clever and ordered the kits from the bins .

i havent drilled out the hole yet ....but ill be back with news

update :

yes indeed the vent was blocked , with all sorts of road crap ...sand , small bits of tar and all that crud ...to a depth of about 40mm

no apparent weep at this time ....i guess its a running presure thang still

just a question ...the rubber seal for the oil side of the seal set ......which way is the seal supposed to go ?,,,,flat face with slightly raised dome towards the front (water seal side) or the other way ,

haynes doesnt give a clue and the accompaning guide says "up" .....what the !

looking at the seal itself there is a slight wear knurling on the spring tension side of the seal shaft interface ...past history says this section should be the high presure side of the seal ... so that would make the flat face point towards the front (water seal side) ...?

i had a good look at berts tutorial ...and that is still a little vague regarding the oil seal ...but great on the water seal and processes

thanks bert


9Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:21 am

BIG D


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Life time member
Cool

Best of luck charlie hope its a simple fix, this is one area I have not had to do myself and am dreading it, Berts tutorial will be a god send. I do know you have to get it right and be meticulous if rebuilding the old pump, so again best of luck keep us all updated.

BIG D


10Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:44 am

charlie99


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Life time member
thanks d ....as i'm currently workng on the car as well as the k, so it will have to wait a few days ......i just cant be without transport i guess ...well it makes sence anyhow .

if i find anything to add to the tutorials i wil be taking pics ....

i dont have the 3 bond for the seal process of putting it all back together ,,but i guess ill make do with the loctite copper version silicon ..it guess it should work ,,,but would prefer to have something proven by the members here . actually ive never used it (3bond ) before ...but it sounds great ,,,i have witnessed twb appyling it durring his cam chain tensioner fix ...like most silicons i have a fear of using the wrong stuff in a particular situation but the copper stuff seems ok .

many years ago i stuffed a honda by using the wrong silicon ...the excess flowed right up to the overhead cam oil supply ...it siezed some 300 k s later whilst out in the bush ...i was young and dumb..... grin

i love these bikes ...once you get your head around the technology, they are so easy to work on ...over engineered yes ...but good all the same

cheers mate... happy new year to ya


11Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:53 am

Inge K.


VIP
VIP
charlie99 wrote:just a question ...the rubber seal for the oil side of the seal set ......which way is the seal supposed to go ?,,,,flat face with slightly raised dome towards the front (water seal side) or the other way ,

Hi Charlie!

The flat face should point to the front, and the open end with the spring tensioned sealing lip to the oilpump.

Inge K.


12Back to top Go down    engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:04 am

Dennis


Platinum member
Platinum member
Charlie, regarding the sealing of the oil pump housing to the engine crankcase, BMW specify the 3Bond product because of the unique application here. This (metal to metal) joint is subject to full oil pressure, unlike most other joints around the engine where there is either a gasket or O ring when there is pressure. Speaking from my own experience with exactly the same symptons you are seeing, I found my tell-tale hole blocked with crap, so the oil pushed into the water side of the pump assembly (the outer lip seal on the water side has no external wiper so oil can push under from the outside). When I rebuilt my oil pump it took 3 attempts to get a seal, in the end I used Loctite 515 Master Gasket after first priming the mating surfaces with Loctite Primer T. Do not touch the surfaces after priming. Be scrupulously clean and apply the 515 sparingly. Spread it with an icy-pole stick or similar, not your fingers. I flushed the engine cooling system with dishwashing detergent in the water. Ran for 30 minutes and drained. Worked a treat.


13Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:09 am

Inge K.


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VIP
charlie99 wrote:i dont have the 3 bond for the seal process of putting it all back together ,,but i guess ill make do with the loctite copper version silicon ..it guess it should work ,,,but would prefer to have something proven by the members here .

I`ve tried different sealants on the pump some years ago (which started to leak after some time),
ended up with Permatex Blue RTV.
The pump assy is still dry on the outside, ~12-13 year, 100K km later.

Inge K.


_________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.

14Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:54 am

charlie99


Life time member
Life time member
thanks inge and dennis ...

see i was going the right way, after all (with the seal ) thanks for the conformation

yes dennis after looking up the 515 it has amazing bonding strength

good advice too inge ....after looking at the permatex range the black seems to be the one with the high oil resistivity ...but i also have used the blue before ...it does a great job ....my copper seems to be able to do the job but is designed for high temp low toxisity ...which should work also ..

ill head off to the auto shop looking to get the 515 i think price dependant at this point as the choices available from the available suppliers, right now durring our holiday season might suffer a certain ouch factor ....grin


_________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O

15Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:46 am

Avenger GT


Gold member
Gold member
Loctite 5920 copper works Charlie, been oil tight on mine for 10,000 odd miles.


16Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:45 pm

charlie99


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Life time member
oh ? cool avenger .. thanks


_________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O

17Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:33 pm

club_c


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Life time member
Good luck Charlie. I've been into my pump twice now replacing the shaft seals. Good news, on the first go around I had a coolant leak again, but going back in and replacing both seals again I can now confirm I have a coolant AND oil leak from the weep hole. Guess what I'm doing next...? (Actually, someone tell me what I'm doing next, I am beyond irritated with this!)


_________________
"There's never enough time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over."

18Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:04 pm

Crazy Frog


admin
admin
I replaced the seals on 3 water/oil pumps and never had a problem. What you have to do is TO BE very relax, have everything cleaned and lay all the parts on the bench. IN NO CASE use a hammer.
If you get stressed, go to argue with your better half or whatever needed to release the pressure and stop until the next morning.


_________________

1986 k75, 1985 K100rt,1985 K100rt/EML sidecar.

19Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:14 pm

club_c


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Life time member
Ha ha. Thanks Bert. The shaft is somewhat pitted so I'm wondering if that is contributing.


_________________
"There's never enough time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over."

20Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:38 pm

charlie99


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Life time member
yes indeed clubbie ...that maybe the issue. i always linish the shaft at the approximate area of the seal ...that gives the seal a chance to "bed in " having pitting around the seal can and often does rip the seal tight edge .... cant explain why the water pump let go ....unless the pitting was severe and you didnt pull the shaft in gently. perhaps a little sealant along the shaft ....oops that wont work ....it has to go through 2 seals and the first one will just collect it .

maybe its the hard yards mate and get a new gear-shaft ....... oops 65 quid

i'd go with a good linish mate. or find a good pump ...if thats possible

i think i have seen some good pics of the area on a couple of threads ....some time ago now ...cant place them real quick

but thanks for the enchouragement


21Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:19 pm

Inge K.


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VIP
About good pics of the shaft area.

Inge K.


22Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:41 pm

charlie99


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thanks inge ,,,,those were the ones i saw, a long time ago.

i would still be cleaning up about 3 or 4 mm in front of the oil seal area on that shaft and a little more through the doesnt matter area so that there was nothing to catch the edge of the oil seal


23Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:01 pm

RicK G


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Life time member
club_c wrote:Ha ha. Thanks Bert. The shaft is somewhat pitted so I'm wondering if that is contributing.
If the shaft is pitted so you suspect the seal is being damaged on reassembly, linish the shaft till smooth and then get it to body temperature and run superglue into the rust pits let it set for a few hours then linish it again with abour 320-400 grit to remove the high spots (the glue sets very hard but presist) and you will have a very smooth shaft that shouldnt damage the seal.


_________________
To he who lives in fear everything rustles.
Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1986 K100RT, 1993 K75 RT, 1986 K75c, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now

24Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:20 pm

Inge K.


VIP
VIP
charlie99 wrote:those were the ones i saw, a long time ago.
File..copy..save................my computer got a lot better memory than my confused head.
You never know when you need those files.............the confused one only remember the endless
wasted hours searching cyperspace for something did see once upon a time....and I need it right now.

Inge K.


25Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:40 pm

Crazy Frog


admin
admin
Crazy Frog finds that the crazy glue idea is a idea.
I will remember it too. Thanks, this is a tip.


_________________

1986 k75, 1985 K100rt,1985 K100rt/EML sidecar.

26Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:21 am

charlie99


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Life time member
yep, good tip k freak


_________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O

27Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:53 am

K-BIKE


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Great tip K-Freak.
Regards,
K-BIKE


28Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:49 am

BIG D


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Life time member
Cool

Blimey K-Freak, that is one hell of a tip spot on

BIG D


29Back to top Go down    Re: engine oil in water reservoir on Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:06 am

Dennis


Platinum member
Platinum member
On the topic of the super glue, digressing slightly, it can also be used to fill pits in chromed fork legs. My mate used that method with great success on his CBX 1000 Supersport. Carefully does it on assembly of the water/oil pump seals. Measure and check, take your time and do not strike with a hammer. A small arbor press is the go if available. Force is required, but definitely no impact.

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