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1Back to top Go down    Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:52 am

jimz49


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Can someone provide me with the ohm range of the in tank sending unit? I checked mine and it reads from 110 down to about 85 through about half of the float arm movement and at that point it loses continuity all together. My guess is it is faulty and should read all the way down to 0 and never lose continuity. The fuel gauge has always read from full to about 3/4 tank and despite bending the float arm the range never changes.

    

2Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:35 am

charlie99

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from memory jimz i think it goes down to 30 odd ohms .

you may be able to remove the sender (after undoing the fuel pump as well, as the wiring is more or less fixed to the sender unit base )

i have a feeling that it is more or less resembles a wire wound potentiometer . possibly the windings have gathered at one end ? or the wiper has become distorted .


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

3Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:41 pm

jimz49


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So, the ohm reading should be from approximately 110 down to 30? I had the sending unit out of the tank and there were no obvious problems with the windings. Regarding the wiper: there are actually two wipers. One sweeps across the windings and the other across a plain plate under the windings. The odd thing is the plain plate has a plastic insert of some type about mid-point of the sweep and that is where the ohm reading loses continuity. There are two green wires that provide the reading from the windings. One green wire is attached to the end of the windings and the other green wire is attached to the plain plate.

    

4Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:50 pm

charlie99

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hmm sounds like the insert shouldnt be there at all ....unless at one time it used to house a track of some kind , is there a noticeable difference in height between the plate and the insulating section ? what im asking is is there a continuity of the plate if the insulatng section was removed ? or is there a chance that there were fingers of the wiper either side of the insulator once apon a time ?

i havent actually pulled one out of the bmw before ....but i guess after seeing similar units many times, they shouldnt be much different erm in theory .

hopefully someone has a detailed pic of a good one somewhere


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

5Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:12 pm

jimz49


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Actually, the plastic insert is flush with the surrounding metal. Seems it was intended to be there, I'm just not sure why. I put the sending unit back into the tank, otherwise I would take a picture of it.

    

6Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:38 pm

Inge K.

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According to information I have, the resistance should be from 3,4 to 110 ohms.
Haven`t done any test to verify this....one day with plenty of time, and nothing to do.

Here is a picture of one that have seen better days and is pryed open.



Inge K.

    

7Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:10 am

charlie99

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inge ....you dont have a pic of the sweeper arm ? i'm looking to see if it has more than one finger for the common contact ...or in fact, if the pivot arm is one of the contacts itself (pivot point being the common contact other wise ) it would be just good to know i guess ..


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

8Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:26 am

jimz49


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You can see in Inge's picture that the one plate has a round plastic (red) insert. Notice the arch shaped line on that plate. Although shorter, it's similar to the arch line on the windings. To answer the question regarding the contact arms (sweepers), there are two sweepers attached to float arm. One arm sweeps over the windings and the other sweeps over the plate with the round plastic insert. The varying resistance is sent back to the cable via the two blue (actually green) wires that are soldered to the orange plug. I took my resistance measurements at the solder points while moving the float arm through it's full range.

    

9Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:46 am

charlie99

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ah! so the body sweeper is more a constant distance/ stabilizer for the second or active sweeper / across the resistive element ...the pivot being the main constant contact point ?

that explains a lot

jimz the only thing i can think of is... that at some point the sweeper contact across the resistor may have become distorted ...and now not making "good"contact with the resistor body as it sweeps its full movement ...maybe the pivot pin has been bent or something ? (possibly durring an attempted adjustment ) maybe you could clean up the contact windings on the lower half of the resistor with a bit of thinners or something ...there maybe some form of coating ---corrosion across that part, from the now low tension ?

the resistor looks to have a rising rate or angle associated with its length so the sweeper makes more presure on the resistor element as it moves across its length ....could the sweeper arm lost some of its tension ....and now not contacting the whole resistor .

the resitance values seem correct so it sounds like a non contact type issue to me

just some thoughts that may help

    

10Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:10 am

jimz49


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I thought possibly the sweep arms were not making good contact when I first took the cover off the sending unit body. I brightened up both contact areas with some fine steelwool and bent the sweep arms so they would provide a more forceful contact. Unfortunately, neither effort changed the outcome.

The resistor does not rise in rate of angle. It is flat across the body of the sending unit.

At this point maybe I should start looking for a replacement sending unit. Hate to approach a problem by switching out parts, but I'm not sure where to go from here.

    

11Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:48 am

charlie99

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maybe the pivot is bent after all ....worth another look jimz


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

12Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:45 pm

greecek100rt

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can you measure the dimensions of the O ring??? (internal diameterX thickness in mm)

thank you

    

13Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:29 pm

Inge K.

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@jimz49 wrote: I took my resistance measurements at the solder points while moving the float arm through it's full range.
Measure between the yellow wire and ground (brown), the plate with the red dot is
for the warning lamp and have nothing to do with the gauge.
The plate for the warning lamp can be adjusted if you wish to (while/if you still have things apart) look for a toothed segment at the bottom.

Inge K.

    

14Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:54 pm

RicK G

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@Inge K. wrote:
@jimz49 wrote: I took my resistance measurements at the solder points while moving the float arm through it's full range.
Measure between the yellow wire and ground (brown), the plate with the red dot is
for the warning lamp and have nothing to do with the gauge.
The plate for the warning lamp can be adjusted if you wish to (while/if you still have things apart) look for a toothed segment at the bottom.

Inge K.
Oh Inge you spoil all my fun I was waiting to find out how long it would be before someone worked it out about the plastic bit.
I know its mean and horrible but it is fun lol!


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

15Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:58 pm

charlie99

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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

16Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:32 pm

jimz49


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Don't have it apart right now, I've moved on to a slipping clutch issue. Glad someone cleared the air on the plastic bit, couldn't figure out why it would be there. Thanks to Inge for that one.

    

17Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:39 pm

Inge K.

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@Rick G wrote:Oh Inge you spoil all my fun
Sorry to ruin your day, Rick........I add on another 24 hours next time.

Inge K.

    

18Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:56 pm

RicK G

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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

19Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:32 pm

jimz49


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Okay, got a chance to check the sending unit today and this time got the correct resistance (3-108). Since it isn't the sending unit that's amiss, where should I look now? I have the fuel gauge off the bike. Can I do a bench test of the gauge using the sending unit?

    

20Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:48 pm

charlie99

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yep shouldnt be a problem jims just need 12 and ground ...tie the guage earth to the meter earth and the output of the guage to the meter ...+ the 12 volts on the right terminal of the guage

9 = fuel guage sender

10 = guage



by the way ...have you checked the 4 pin tank connector plug under the right hand side cover ...the socket part tends to expand around the pins of the plug and intermittent-corroded connections result ...often a sqeeze of the sockets restores good connections

    

21Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:12 pm

jimz49


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Did the bench test today on the fuel gauge. The gauge reads from about 3/4 full to sightly past full as I move the float arm through it's range. Is this normal for the gauge to fail in this way?

    

22Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:25 pm

charlie99

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verry odd jims .....what happens when you add a 150 ohm resistor in circuit to earth and the sensor input of the guage ?

kinda sounds like the shunt resistor has changed value ?

you could measure accross the b+ of the guage and the sensor input and see the value (unfortunatly i dont have mine out at the moment for a comparison )


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

23Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:35 pm

Inge K.

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Don`t help you much, but mine also have a rather strange behaviour.

Start from full...as normal down to half....then moves up again to 3/4.....
and then stays there untill the tank is empty.


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

24Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:38 pm

Inge K.

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@charlie99 wrote:you could measure accross the b+ of the guage and the sensor input and see the value (unfortunatly i dont have mine out at the moment for a comparison )
This value should be 125 ohms.


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

25Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:42 pm

charlie99

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might be just as easy to measure the movement of the sender jimz ....just put your meter across the earthy side of the sender unit and the send wire .....you should get a nice sweep from 3 to 110 ohms ......if not you have found the little critter .... check that there is good presure across the wiper as it moves across the windings ..you may have to clean up the wiper contacts with some really fine wet and dry soaked in with wd40 or rp7....only problem with that is that it could leave some grit in the surface ....but paper used after might release it

just some thoughts

just saw the value inge ...thanks


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

26Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:49 pm

jimz49


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The reading went straight to full, which is odd. According to my resistance readings of the sending unit, empty is the higher resistance. So adding resistance should have made the gauge swing closer to empty.

    

27Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:59 pm

jimz49


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If you are saying to measure the resistance between the yellow and green wires at the back of the meter, then I'm getting a reading of 221ohms.

    

28Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:09 pm

charlie99

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wow almost twice as much as i expected ....sounds like some thing bad has happened inside to me

opening the meter has its issues .....like trying to reassemble it ....the hard bit is getting the glass face and surround clipped around the circumference of the meter body ....not an impossible thing ...but awkward for me with shakey hands


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

29Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:20 pm

Inge K.

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@charlie99 wrote:...but awkward for me with shakey hands
I always thought this was a Monday morning problem....it`s still Friday......Hooray


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

30Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:34 pm

charlie99

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jimz i went inside one of the meters a little while ago ....you might gleem some ijnformation in this thread

http://www.k100-forum.com/t2977-anyone-succesfully-been-inside-a-temp-guage


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

31Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:04 pm

robmack

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UPDATE:

Created a complete How-to posting in the How To section of the site. It includes all the original material plus a description on how to change the sender to be compatible with modern gauges.



Last edited by robmack on Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:41 pm; edited 9 times in total


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1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
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32Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:45 pm

RicK G

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Job well done Rob we shall have to get Bert to place that in the downloads section.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

33Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:32 pm

charlie99

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great write up rob

did I see somewhere that inge said that the block for the reserve could be moved somehow ? I didn't see how it could be done


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

34Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:48 pm

K75cster

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In Robs excellent post above he shows the left side contact pic supplies ground to the reserve light and the right side contact picis nonconductive because its when the fuel is either full or heading down to the near empty point where the light comes on and the sweeper on the windings is only for a gauge if one is connected??? is that correct????


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Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

35Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:08 pm

robmack

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Yes, that is absolutely correct, K75cster. This conclusion is also substantiated if you examine the K100 schematic diagram. The four wires from the tank connector are:

Green/White = +12V for pump (pin 15)
Brown = Ground (pin 31)
White = Low fuel indicator (pin W)
Yellow = Fuel level (pin G)

Green/White comes from Fuse 6; ground from the frame connection under the tank.
The white wire goes to pin 7 on the instrument panel. It is the low fuel indicator function.
The yellow wire goes to the "Connector for Additional Instruments", an Amp 4-way female connector under the right side of the tank. This is the connector that is used on an RT or LT to connect up the Gas Gauge.


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Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
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36Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:13 am

CO1637P

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This post I liked. Thank you


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37Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:25 am

japuentes

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Now I think I can fix mine.
Thanks


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1988 K100RS SE/ABS
    

38Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:49 am

robmack

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@charlie99 wrote:great write up rob

did I see somewhere that inge said that the block for the reserve could be moved somehow ? I didn't see how it could be done
Charlie, you're absolutely right and I totally missed Inge's comment earlier in this thread. Thanks for pointing this out.

I've found the toothed wheel about which he spoke and I've updated my description to include this adjustment.


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Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
    

39Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:01 pm

orforester

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Any help on the 85 style fuel sender unit?


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89 K 100 RS se
85 K 100 RT
    

40Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:04 am

Inge K.

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Some info you find in this old thread.


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

41Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:33 pm

billtr96sn

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Thank's very much for this, but can you clarify something for me.

I am using a car fuel gauge and looking at your wiring, I only need to attach the yellow wireto one side of the gauge and the brown to the other (without worrying about the light)


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42Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:32 pm

robmack

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You should tap off the Additional Instruments connector for your automotive fuel gauge. This connector provides all the signals you'll need for your gauge -- ground, +12V, sender and parking lights. I don't know your type of gauge, but normally one side of the gauge is to +12V and the other to the sender.

Be aware that the BMW sender works opposite to modern fuel senders. Your gauge may respond falsely, indicating empty when the tank is full. Hopefully it can be adjusted to compensate.


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Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
    

43Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:05 am

billtr96sn

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I have looked for the additional instruments connector, but I don't appear to have one. This mat be down to being a ex police bike


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Something witty is supposed to go here... help!!
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44Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:38 am

RicK G

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Sometimes with the police bikes they are treated very badly when they are stripped of the police gear and it can be a cut and tape festival.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

45Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:09 am

Crazy Frog

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@RicK G wrote:Job well done Rob we shall have to get Bert to place that in the downloads section.
Yes very well done Rob.


I placed your posting (with a link to this thread) in the downloads section. (It's under Electrical -> Fuel sender units) It will be easier for people to retrieve it when needed.

Bert


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1986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML sidecar.
    

46Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:30 am

robmack

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You're looking for something like this on the right side under the tank.


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Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
    

47Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:37 am

duck

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Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

48Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:42 pm

billtr96sn

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Nope, definitely not.

In the relay box I found this which has most of the right colours








But nothing like I 'should' have on the right under the tank


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49Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:12 pm

robmack

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What you have ahold of in the first few pictures is the Connector for Special Equipment.

It's not a useful connector for your gauges.


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Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
    

50Back to top Go down    Re: Testing In Tank Fuel Sender Unit on Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:30 pm

duck

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if your bike didn't come with gauges from the factory then it's probably taped off to the clump of wires and not hanging out in the open.


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Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

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