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1Back to top Go down    Oil/water pump seals replacement on Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:55 pm

MT350Explorer

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Hi Guys,

OK, I've seen the videos and read the guides and I'm begining to get psyched up for the big day!

Couple of questions:

What's the smaller (approx 10mm diameter) black 'o' ring for? OK it's the drive gear 'o' ring but where does it go?

Where the larger, orange 'o' ring sits on the engine block does it need sealant around it as well? I assume not but...

In one of the vids in the 'How to' section the guy is cleaning the mating faces up with emery paper - what grade should I use so as not to make scratches too deep?

Many thanks Very Happy
Dave


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2Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:47 pm

GerryP

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Hi Dave,

I did this in June but I really cannot remember the details. Getting old

Anyway here's the picture:



The small ring is #10 I think. Note picture shows the old-style cast impeller.

As to the other things:

Cleaning mating surfaces - I would never use emery, you really don't want to scratch those mating surfaces at all. If you can't find a solvent for what's on there, safest is to make a scraper of soft metal (soft aluminium or brass) or even plastic and go at it real gently. I confess to using a knife, but I get it over at a really acute angle so that the edge isn't on the surface I'm cleaning.

A far as sealant is concerned use as little as possible. A very thin film is enough, otherwise you are likely to block the oil pressure relief channel.

No sealant for o-rings, unless it is loose enough to fall out as you assemble the pumps.

Best of luck Very Happy


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K1100LT (1993) in Silk Blue/Cream
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3Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:10 pm

Inge K.

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This and this link could become useful.


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4Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:27 am

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Gerry, Inge, thanks really useful info. Think I have a pretty complete plan now.

Cheers
Dave


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5Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:44 am

captaink

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I did mine in the summer, mating surfaces have to be spot on, i used wet and dry in the end (400 grit), the sealant has to be good too, very thinly. I took a few days to get mine right, even a discussion on what glass to use Shocked

http://www.k100-forum.com/t3989-re-built-water-pump#39539


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6Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:12 pm

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yep, got it right captain .....the driebond works excellently for this job (3 bond) and verry conservative with the application of the goo .

make sure you have a few 12mm id washers to pull the pump shaft through the water seal .

good luck dave


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7Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:12 pm

Ringfad

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I also did my oil / water pump earlier this year without a problem. I found a video on youtube which goes throught the process (don't have the link but it should be easy to find). Give it a go it was not very difficult.


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;BMW;K100RS Style Black 1987 105K Km ;BMW; K1 Black 1993 51KKm ;BMW;K1100RSRed 1993 70k miles ;BMW; K100 16V Black (ex ElectricMonk)
    

8Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:07 pm

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OK so I have some blue hylomar - but this won't do right?

Please coud someone clarify this is stuff I should use before I buy it?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-BOND-THREE-BOND-GASKET-CEMENT-SEALER-1-TUBE-free-P-P-/181011330277?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item2a251db4e5

Thanks Guys just want to get everything ready so I won't be tempted to bodge it! Shocked
Cheers
Dave


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9Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:29 pm

sidecar paul

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Hi Dave,

I once used Hylomar on the pump joint and it leaked like a sieve, re-did it with 3 Bond and everything was back to normal.

I was so impressed, that when I fitted a new big end in the Vincent last year, I did all the joints with 3 Bond and that motor is bone dry (on the outside).

I should really carry an oil can to squirt a few drops under the bike when I park, to make it look original.

Paul.


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'84 K100RS (0014643) (owned since '85), 86 K100RS (0018891) with Martello sidecar (built as an outfit in '88),
'51 Vincent (since '67),'72 Montesa Cota (from new), '87 Honda RS125R NF4 (bought 2015)
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10Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:34 pm

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Brilliant. Thanks Paul!


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11Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:21 am

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Hit a bit of an obstacle
.
Cover plate bolts are corroded. All out except for two. One came out with a torx bit hammered in to it, the other has had the same treatment but won't budge. Tried a larger torx and a flathead bit but no joy. it's now looking a pretty messy allen bolt. If it was one of the ones that were round the edge I think it could get in out but it's in the middle of the plate so not much head protruding. No welding gear here, might have to get a local garage to come out. Anything else worth trying (even if it meant sacrificing the cover it might be cheaper than getting the garage out)?

Thanks Very Happy

Cheers
Dave


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12Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:31 am

Inge K.

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You`re not the first one in here, with this problem.

Drill the head off the screw, use a self locking plier and some heat to get the remaining stud off.

Have a look at this thread.


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13Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:43 am

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Thanks Inge. Will do as you say.

Cheers for the link - I searched but didn't find that one

At least it's only one Very Happy

Cheers
Dave


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14Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:07 am

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Took your advice and got the sucker - big thanks Inge. Very Happy All the rest came off easy so have the pump on the bench now.

Cheers
Dave


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15Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:18 am

Inge K.

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Well done!


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16Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:28 pm

88

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Post some piccies of the progress Dave....we just want to compare them to Charlie99 thread on the subject.....for a laugh Razz
88KE


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"The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page." - St. Augustine from 1600 years ago & still true!

Bike: K100LT 1988. 0172363. AKA the Bullion Brick! Mods: k1100 screen and stands.
K1: 1990. 6374189. Custom Stealth Black paint.
    

17Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:28 pm

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Well, nothing that hasn't been seen before but what the hell, here's some pics so far.

I followed the advice to tip the bike backwards to reduce the amount of oil leakage when you remove the pump (without draining the oil). With the bike on the mainstand I jacked up as far as I could go beneath the sump with a trolley jack before the bike became unstable. I then let teh air out of the back tyre to gain another centimetre or so. I reckon about half a litre came out (level has been just below the 'dot' in the sight glass).



Here are the bits that didn't make it (on top of the pump cover), The flat brass top of the connection on the water temp sensor also came off so at 30 for a new one I might attempt soldering the wire to the stump for now.




This is what the old seals look like. The spring and a bit of rubber came out of the water side of the pump, the rest was gentely pushed through by tapping through with an upside down 6" nail with my 'special' Very Happy hammer described below.



Only two of the cover bolts were a git to get off. the rest were really straightforward and once the bolts were removed both the pump and cover came off easily with some tapping from a rubber mallet (actually I don't have one but I do have a small hammer that I taped a small block of rubber to Very Happy)



Started the cleaning up process. Need to wait for new bolts and gasket/threadlock to arrive in the post so no hurry. I think all of the old seals are out - but not 100% sure!



Cheers
Dave


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18Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:39 pm

88

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Looking good actually Dave, I'm interested becuase I'll be doing it in the spring I reckon. Good work that man.
88


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88....May contain nuts!

"The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page." - St. Augustine from 1600 years ago & still true!

Bike: K100LT 1988. 0172363. AKA the Bullion Brick! Mods: k1100 screen and stands.
K1: 1990. 6374189. Custom Stealth Black paint.
    

19Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:44 pm

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Is it weeping 88 mate? Order your new bolts now! One thing I was amazed at is how light the pump body is in the flesh; also a clever design ( to a layman)
Cheers
Dave


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20Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:17 pm

Inge K.

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Beware, so don`t clog this hole with sealant when you put things back together....as it is the return passage from the pressure relief valve.


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21Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:28 pm

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good work dave ....

i think from memory the bearing part of the pump body is about 10mm so just check that you got the oil side seal out properly dave ...but by the look of the pics seems youve got it


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'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

22Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:42 pm

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Thanks Inge, Charlie. Very Happy


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23Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:01 pm

GerryP

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That all looks pretty good. Mating surfaces are in good shape.

Best of luck. Very Happy


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Gerry Parnham


K1100LT (1993) in Silk Blue/Cream
http://gerryparnham.com
    

24Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:42 am

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Thanks Gerry, yes no horror stories so far!

Here's a question; the bolts should be torqued to 5-6 ft/lbs. Neither of my torque wrenches goes this low so am looking to buy one. At this time of year it needs to be cheap. On Ebay there are TUV approved 3/8" drive with 5-80 ft/lb range for about 20. TUV approved appears to be a German/EU standard. Worth having or a waste of money?

Dave


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25Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:02 am

GerryP

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German TuV has a good rep, but I couldn't see the wrench you referred to. My choice would be:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Snap-on-3-8-drive-torque-wrench-good-condition-/271105770032?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item3f1f29c230

but it might get a bit expensive.

Even with a cheap torque wrench its easy to check it at the setting you need.

Torque = Force x Radius. Set the wrench to 6ftlbs and clamp the drive in a vice with the wrench horizontal. Take a weight of 6lbs and hang it on the wrench 1ft from the drive. The torque wrench should just click over. If its easier 3lbs at 2ft from the driver also gives 6 ftlbs.

I have known people do this to tighten screws rather than cough up for a torque wrench at all. :pirat:


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Gerry Parnham


K1100LT (1993) in Silk Blue/Cream
http://gerryparnham.com
    

26Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:48 am

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Thanks Gerry, some good info. Yes Snap-on are well rated but as you say by the time you add the frenzied bidding at the end and the postage it'll go for too much. Like the idea of testing it - never even occured to me!
Cheers
Dave


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27Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:56 am

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Well work has progressed this morning afteer a week's delay. I have fitted the oila nd water seals and refitted the shaft (pics will follow 88!).

One immediate query/observation. In the photo you can see two different styles of spacer. The spacer and washer on the left are the old ones, the new spacer (with no washer) is on the right. I can only imagine that the water seal design has changed as the only combination of spacer and washer that now provides clearance for the impellor is using the new spacer (without the old washer). Can anyone confirm this is the case?



Here is the diagram from the BMW 16 valve workshop manual. the washer is number 7 and the spacer is also clearly shown.



Thanks
Dave


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28Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:33 am

RicK G

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The washer is actually part of the old seal (it has some rubbery stuff moulded to it) so it doesn't really come into the equasion. use the small spacer with the spigot facing out to centre the impeller.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

29Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:36 am

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no need for the old spacer etc dave

the new spacer fitts the new impeller perfectly ...with just a washer on the bolt side to maintain compression

hope that helps ..(btw that looks like its still the old seal arangement in the pic you posted)


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

30Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:51 am

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Cheers Rick, Charlie, good to have that confimed Very Happy


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31Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:12 am

klompy the grey brick

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KKlompy
1984 K100RS Silver VIN 0019026 Mitt eine Staintune Zorst.
1997 K1100LT Dark Grey VIN WB1052600W0237453.

Chassis number0019026
Vehicle code0503
SeriesK589
ModelK 100 RS 83 (0502 ( 0503 )
Body typeK 100 RS 83 (0502
Catalog modelECE
Production date1984 / 07
Engine0513)




    

32Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:41 am

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Fitting the oil seal was easy. A lick of grease around it, and driven in to a nice, clean housing with a rubber hammer and using a socket the same diameter as the outside of the seal. This is it fitted.

WAITING FOR IMAGE WITH OIL SEAL THE RIGHT WAY AROUND!!!

Water seal next. this is it sitting on the housing ready to be squeezed in



I squeezed in the water seal in with a piece of threaded bar with a nut and washer on the oil side and a brass curtain pole cap and nut on the other! The curtain pole end was ideal as it sat over the fragile, sprung part of the water seal, right on the flange that needs to be pushed flush with the housing. It was a matter then of tightening the nuts until it was squeezed home.



The shaft was a little pitted and corroded; I cleaned it up with some 800 grade. You can see in red what I guess is pitting near the water seal contact points; this wasn't leaking so should be OK. the oil seal contact points I would guess are in yellow - two polished slight groves you can feel with your nail. Once reassembled we'll see if a new seal sorts the oil leak or if the grooves have worn to a point the shaft needs replacing.



Putting the shaft in through seals was easy using washers and the new spacer and this is well described elsewhere.

Cheers Very Happy
Dave



Last edited by MT350Explorer on Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total


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33Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:56 am

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Nice work....excellent pictures....( added bit here...I thought it looked good too....bugger!!!!)



Last edited by Klompy the grey brick on Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:12 am; edited 1 time in total


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KKlompy
1984 K100RS Silver VIN 0019026 Mitt eine Staintune Zorst.
1997 K1100LT Dark Grey VIN WB1052600W0237453.

Chassis number0019026
Vehicle code0503
SeriesK589
ModelK 100 RS 83 (0502 ( 0503 )
Body typeK 100 RS 83 (0502
Catalog modelECE
Production date1984 / 07
Engine0513)




    

34Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:39 am

RicK G

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Don't like to disapoint you but that oil seal is in backwards. The side with the tension spring on the lip goes to the oil pressure side and that is unfortunately the other way round.
If you are very careful you may be able to get the coolant seal out without damaging it.
You will need to use a press because if you hit it with a hammer you mat crack or shatter the ceramic coolant seal, bit like hitting the wifes fine china tea cups with a hammer.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

35Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:47 am

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Thanks. Do you know Rick when I posted this up I thought - I bet I've done something wrong! Better to find out now than later
Cheers
Dave


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36Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:59 am

charlie99

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yep rick is right ...the domed part of the oil seal should be towards the front..


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'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

37Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:05 am

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No worries, I've probably got the next 6 months to get it right Very Happy Snow and ice this week not a good omen.
Cheers
Dave


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38Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:14 am

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Hmmm. Not sure how that shaft will come out of those nice tight new seals.

Just before things get serious - why does it matter which way round the oil seal is?

Cheers
Dave


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39Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:44 am

Crazy Frog

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@MT350Explorer wrote:Hmmm. Not sure how that shaft will come out of those nice tight new seals.

Just before things get serious - why does it matter which way round the oil seal is?

Cheers
Dave

Because a seal is designed to have the oil pressure compressing the lip on the shaft.
When installed the wrong way, only the dust lip seals the oil.


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40Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:53 am

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Thanks CF, I was clutching at straws there.
Shaft and seals are out. seals are FUBAR, so new ones on order
Cheers
Dave


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41Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:14 am

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@Klompy the grey brick wrote:Nice work....excellent pictures....( added bit here...I thought it looked good too....bugger!!!!)

Thanks Klompy! Just wait until the next episode, scheduled for Christmas day evening after three bottles of wine - what can possible go wrong?! Very Happy


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42Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:47 pm

88

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Bit of bummer Dave, but better to find out this way, You're still saving a small fortune over replacing the pump or paying a workshop to do it.

88


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88....May contain nuts!

"The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page." - St. Augustine from 1600 years ago & still true!

Bike: K100LT 1988. 0172363. AKA the Bullion Brick! Mods: k1100 screen and stands.
K1: 1990. 6374189. Custom Stealth Black paint.
    

43Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:08 pm

club_c

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@MT350Explorer wrote:Thanks CF, I was clutching at straws there.
Shaft and seals are out. seals are FUBAR, so new ones on order
Cheers
Dave

Oh no. This thread is triggering my PTS that I encurred on my water pump rebuild last year (Inge posted the link). You've got right idea MT, nice and slow...


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44Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:49 pm

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88KE wrote:Bit of bummer Dave, but better to find out this way, You're still saving a small fortune over replacing the pump or paying a workshop to do it.

88

Yeah - hey and I'm learning something so not really sweating it Very Happy. The daft thing is that I put the oil seal in last week only after looking at various links and videos and stuff to make sure it was the right way round but by I guess my brain shortcircuited!

Cheers
Dave


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45Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:54 pm

MT350Explorer

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@club_c wrote:
@MT350Explorer wrote:Thanks CF, I was clutching at straws there.
Shaft and seals are out. seals are FUBAR, so new ones on order
Cheers
Dave

Oh no. This thread is triggering my PTS that I encurred on my water pump rebuild last year (Inge posted the link). You've got right idea MT, nice and slow...

Thanks club-c, maybe we can get a club badge made up for those that have tried and screwed it up? Maybe a series of badges for jobs that have claimed peoples sanity? Very Happy

Cheers
Dave


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46Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:48 pm

Crazy Frog

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Don't feel too bad, others made worst mistakes. This one for example
In any case, it's better to catch the error now rather than breaking down in the middle of nowhere.

CF


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47Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:28 pm

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@Crazy Frog wrote:Don't feel too bad, others made worst mistakes. This one for example
In any case, it's better to catch the error now rather than breaking down in the middle of nowhere.

CF

Thanks Bert. That one was painful for Halo but a great result in the end.

Cheers
Dave


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48Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:30 pm

MT350Explorer

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@GerryP wrote:German TuV has a good rep, but I couldn't see the wrench you referred to. My choice would be:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Snap-on-3-8-drive-torque-wrench-good-condition-/271105770032?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item3f1f29c230

but it might get a bit expensive.

Went for 77 including postage - too rich for me. You could get three oil/water seals kits for that


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49Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:04 pm

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[quote="MT350Explorer"]
@Crazy Frog wrote:Don't feel too bad, others made worst mistakes. This one for example
In any case, it's better to catch the error now rather than breaking down in the middle of nowhere.

CF

wow what a great story...I rebuilt a gearbox once with all those roller bearings that fir inside each gear and after doing it 3 times I still had 12 rollers left over...phone the supplier and they told me " yeah mate we always throw extras in there in case you lose any"........fantastic!!! Anyhow a great read and really love the work ethis there HALO (High Altitude Low Opening indeed!!!)


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KKlompy
1984 K100RS Silver VIN 0019026 Mitt eine Staintune Zorst.
1997 K1100LT Dark Grey VIN WB1052600W0237453.

Chassis number0019026
Vehicle code0503
SeriesK589
ModelK 100 RS 83 (0502 ( 0503 )
Body typeK 100 RS 83 (0502
Catalog modelECE
Production date1984 / 07
Engine0513)




    

50Back to top Go down    Re: Oil/water pump seals replacement on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:29 pm

RicK G

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@MT350Explorer wrote:Thanks. Do you know Rick when I posted this up I thought - I bet I've done something wrong! Better to find out now than later
Cheers
Dave

It's a easy mistake to make because when you look at it you see it as being the inside of the pump but it's only the inside of the coolant pump.
I just had a mental picture of you waist deep in snow desperately making your way to the dealer only to be told it wont be in till next week now because of all the ice and snow.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

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