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1Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty 8v to 16v engine swap. on Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:33 pm

KafeRacer

KafeRacer
Silver member
Silver member
I have a 1985 k100 with the 8v engine so from what I have been reading it would have the l-Jetronic fuel ECU.  I recently picked up a later modle 16v K100 engine from a 1991 K100RS.  Price was too good to pass up.  I have the Engine, with all connected sensors, the fuel rail, injectors, intake, airbox, radiator, and other connected bits,  I dont however have the fuel or ignition ECUs form the 16v bike.  What I am looking for is advice on how to do the engine swap,  IE, can I run the 16v engine with the 8v ECU's?

Thanks.

Dave


__________________________________________________
Dave Evans
'Kafe Racer'
kaferacer.wordpress.com

1990 K75RT
1985 K100 Kafe Racer
http://kaferacer.wordpress.com
    

2Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:56 pm

RicK G

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I don't see any reason that you couldn't use the L Jetronic injection just make sure you use the sensors (mainly the temp sensor) from the 8v engine and of course the air filter and air flow meter and injectors but with the 16v fuel rail.
The usual disclaimers go with this i.e. if your engine disintegrates because of thermonuclear combustion then don't blame me. Laughing 
If you do use the later motronic injection you will get better fuel consumption. you don't need an ignition module as it is all done in the ECU but you will need the ignition amplifier which is on the battery cradle and the 16v type coils


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

3Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:26 am

Inge K.

Inge K.
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@RicK G wrote:
If you do use the later motronic injection you will get better fuel consumption. you don't need an ignition module as it is all done in the ECU but you will need the ignition amplifier

Would like to add that the ignition amp is only used on the early Motronic (MA 2.1).


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

4Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:22 pm

duck

duck
Life time member
Life time member
@Inge K. wrote:
@RicK G wrote:
If you do use the later motronic injection you will get better fuel consumption. you don't need an ignition module as it is all done in the ECU but you will need the ignition amplifier

Would like to add that the ignition amp is only used on the early Motronic (MA 2.1).

Which also needs to be mounted to an early 4V battery tray so serve as a heat sink.  If that is not done then the ignition amp will overheat and the bike will run like crap.


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

5Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:08 pm

KafeRacer

KafeRacer
Silver member
Silver member
Thanks for the info.

Is it safe to assume that running the 16v engine with the 8v electronics will still gain me a little HP and Torque since it should breath better.

Thanks.


__________________________________________________
Dave Evans
'Kafe Racer'
kaferacer.wordpress.com

1990 K75RT
1985 K100 Kafe Racer
http://kaferacer.wordpress.com
    

6Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:36 pm

duck

duck
Life time member
Life time member
Totally seat of the pants crap that may or may not have merit:

1 - Given that you'd need to use a 2V mass airflow sensor I think that would restrict airflow more than using a 4V setup.  All of the air entering the MAF needs to flow through a relatively small square cross section.

2 - The Motronic is designed and fuel mapped to work with the 4V engine so I  imagine going that route would yield better results.

3 - Using the Motronic is a known quantity which doesn't require "shoe-horning" two dissimilar systems (and wiring harnesses) together.

JMHO but to ensure that things work well and "simplify" the project, I'd go the Motronic route.

Then again, it would also be interesting to see YOU go the L-Jet implementation and see how things work out.


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

7Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:43 pm

duck

duck
Life time member
Life time member
And here's how the power curves compare. As you can see the 4V definitely out performs the 2V 1000 cc engine at higher RPMs.  How much of that is due to engine management vs. engine design is anybody's guess.

8v to 16v engine swap. K.Bike.Power.Curves.1164


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

8Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:05 pm

KafeRacer

KafeRacer
Silver member
Silver member
Interesting HP and Torque graphs.  Thanks.  Since I have all of the gear to go the L-Jet I will likely go that route first.  If all else fails I could always spend alot of money and go with this setup:

http://www.bskspeedworks.co.uk/engine-management-package.html

I got to give the engine a good solid once over however before I even start.  I believe the engine has 34k Km or possibly 34K Miles on it.  The bike was layed down on the crank case side.  Chewed up all of the fairing and some of the crankcase cover.  I suspect that is the better side to have on the ground form the engine survivability standpoint.  Other then the road rash on the crank case and a broken piece of aluminum from the starter stuck in the bell housing the engine looks solid.  It is fill of oil. Turns over well with a socket on the crank.

I will probably spend the next few weeks cleaning it up and taking all of the covers off.

Cheers

Dave.


__________________________________________________
Dave Evans
'Kafe Racer'
kaferacer.wordpress.com

1990 K75RT
1985 K100 Kafe Racer
http://kaferacer.wordpress.com
    

9Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:08 pm

KafeRacer

KafeRacer
Silver member
Silver member
Does anyone know if there is any difference between a motronic made for a K1100, and a K100 16v.

Thanks.

Dave.


__________________________________________________
Dave Evans
'Kafe Racer'
kaferacer.wordpress.com

1990 K75RT
1985 K100 Kafe Racer
http://kaferacer.wordpress.com
    

10Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:22 pm

RicK G

RicK G
VIP
VIP
Go to Real OEM http://realoem.com/bmw/ and check the part numbers.  That is a good reliable site for reference.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

11Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:36 pm

duck

duck
Life time member
Life time member
@KafeRacer wrote:Does anyone know if there is any difference between a motronic made for a K1100, and a K100 16v.

Thanks.

Dave.
Yes, there is.  I can only speak from my experience with US bikes but the K100RS4V did not have a cat and O2 sensor while the K1100s did.


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

12Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:40 pm

KafeRacer

KafeRacer
Silver member
Silver member
@duck wrote:
@KafeRacer wrote:Does anyone know if there is any difference between a motronic made for a K1100, and a K100 16v.

Thanks.

Dave.
Yes, there is.  I can only speak from my experience with US bikes but the K100RS4V did not have a cat and O2 sensor while the K1100s did.

Ok,  that makes sense. I certainly don't want to get into those emissions systems.

Thanks.


__________________________________________________
Dave Evans
'Kafe Racer'
kaferacer.wordpress.com

1990 K75RT
1985 K100 Kafe Racer
http://kaferacer.wordpress.com
    

13Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:05 pm

RicK G

RicK G
VIP
VIP
@duck wrote:
@KafeRacer wrote:Does anyone know if there is any difference between a motronic made for a K1100, and a K100 16v.

Thanks.

Dave.
Yes, there is.  I can only speak from my experience with US bikes but the K100RS4V did not have a cat and O2 sensor while the K1100s did.
Only from 1994 models on that have the Motronic 2.2, mine is a 1993 model with the Motronic 2.1 and does not have the O2 sensor. I have run a K100 16v motronic ECU in my K1100 and it works OK but I think they are a different part number and it stands to reason that they would be a bit different as there are also some differences from the K100 16v to the K1100.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

14Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:15 am

Inge K.

Inge K.
VIP
VIP
@RicK G wrote:
@duck wrote:
@KafeRacer wrote:Does anyone know if there is any difference between a motronic made for a K1100, and a K100 16v.

Thanks.

Dave.
Yes, there is.  I can only speak from my experience with US bikes but the K100RS4V did not have a cat and O2 sensor while the K1100s did.
Only from 1994 models on that have the Motronic 2.2, mine is a 1993 model with the Motronic 2.1 and does not have the O2 sensor. I have run a K100 16v motronic ECU in my K1100 and it works OK but I think they are a different part number and it stands to reason that they would be a bit different as there are also some differences from the K100 16v to the K1100.

A cat was available as an option for all 4V models from early -90, 2V's late -91.

According to the online manuals the same Motronic MA2.1 is used on all models.
(But I've seen different Bosch part numbers on them, during the years


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

15Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:05 am

RicK G

RicK G
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VIP
I have done a very thorough examination on my 1993 K1100 and there is no way there is anywhere that an O2 sensor can be fitted and nowhere to plug it in. To the best of my knowledge there were no K1100s bought into Australia that had or were able to have O2 sensors fitted.  The first 16v that had an O2 sensor fitted in Australia was on the K1100 when the 1994 models came out which was when the K1100 RS was released and they all had them.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

16Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:14 am

duck

duck
Life time member
Life time member
Pretty sure that it varied by country.  The marketing lit for 93 LTs in the US is very proud that it has a cat.  My 93 LT had (before I installed a Staintune) a cat and does have an O2 sensor.


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

17Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:27 am

Inge K.

Inge K.
VIP
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I only said that a cat was available as an option from early -90.
I have no idea in which countries the importer choose to have it available.
I'll Guess that it didn't sell that good in the beginning, as it also was more expensive.

And of course you don't find any place to mount the O2 sensor, as long as
the bike is a non cat model from the beginning.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

18Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:31 am

RicK G

RicK G
VIP
VIP
Real OEM show a different Exhaust for Australia. Gees they do some strange things. Why the hell remove the CAT and O2 from Australian bikes, in comparison to the rest of the world they sell bugger all here.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

19Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:41 am

Inge K.

Inge K.
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@RicK G wrote:Real OEM show a different Exhaust for Australia.
Also on the 2V models, which I have mentioned earlier ....in a ekshaust thread.
As it's both 2V & 4V I would guess it has something to do with the noise regulations.


(and the reason to Caferacer62 found two different guts when moding a lot of silencers).


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

20Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:58 am

RicK G

RicK G
VIP
VIP
I would expect there to be somewhere on the exhaust to fit an O2 sensor if it were optional but we are talking about the strange ways of BMW. Mind it's not just BMW there were some odd things done to Hondas from country to country when I worked for them.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

21Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:09 am

Inge K.

Inge K.
VIP
VIP
Why should you have the possibility to mount a O2 sensor as it's no cat inside exhauster from the beginning.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

22Back to top Go down   8v to 16v engine swap. Empty Re: 8v to 16v engine swap. on Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:30 am

RicK G

RicK G
VIP
VIP
I didn't see post 17, for some reason it just passed me by.  Reading that I can see why you ask that.
I didnt realize that as an option it was exhaust and all and that is probably why I have no place to even plug an O2 sensor in to the harness.
As for the ECU I had often seen the later type referred to as a Motronic 2.2. The one I refer to is the one that sits on top of the ABS unit and has the plug into the flat top surface. I know that the people who make chips for them say only for one or the other and that they (the chip) is not interchangeable.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

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