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51Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:28 am

kioolt


Silver member
Silver member
@BooG wrote:1) r/h switchgear disconnected under tank. Key turned to "on": load shed clicks, nothing else works. No click from starter relay.
2) Switchgear reconnected. Load shed relay removed: Key turned to "on". original problem again; turnover from key "on" position.
3) Load shed removed. Wires disconnected from starter relay. No voltage from terminal 86 on relay with key at "on" or "off".
12v at the connector wire (black/yellow) when disconnected from relay.
4) Load shed relay removed. Wires out at starter relay. ICU/ECU disconnected. Ground run from terminal 85 on starter relay. No click from relay. 
5) Load shed in place. r/h switchgear disconnected under tank. wires off starter. 12v at connector wire (yellow/black for terminal 86 on starter relay).

Seems like the power is finding its way to the starter relay from the black and yellow wire. Also, there does appear to be "suspicions" concerning  the starter relay. 
I think the switchgear is OK. Cup of tea and on again. My fingers are killing me....London v.cold today!!
The results of step one and two indicates wiring going to switchgear or switchgear problem. 

In step three and four I believe you misunderstood what I wanted you to disconnect.  Disconnect the big wire on the STARTER at the starter not the starter relay. Regardless of you removing the wire at the wrong place, the problem appears to be in the switchgear wiring or switchgear.  I will look at the diagram again to see if I can get a clue as to where it might be in that section of wires.

I see no suspicions concerning the starter relay at all from your description above.  No voltage on terminal 86 at starter relay no WORKEE just as it should not work.

    

52Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:08 am

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
@BooG wrote:1) r/h switchgear disconnected under tank. Key turned to "on": load shed clicks, nothing else works. No click from starter relay. This is not definative. Probably best to use a meter to determine open/closed contacts on the starter relay
2) Switchgear reconnected. Load shed relay removed: Key turned to "on". original problem again; turnover from key "on" position.
3) Load shed removed. Wires disconnected from starter relay. No voltage from terminal 86 on relay with key at "on" or "off".
12v at the connector wire (black/yellow) when disconnected from relay.
4) Load shed relay removed. Wires out at starter relay. ICU/ECU disconnected. Ground run from terminal 85 on starter relay. No click from relay. As above... Prob best to meter this
5) Load shed in place. r/h switchgear disconnected under tank. wires off starter. 12v at connector wire (yellow/black for terminal 86 on starter relay).

Seems like the power is finding its way to the starter relay from the black and yellow wire. Also, there does appear to be "suspicions" concerning  the starter relay. 
I think the switchgear is OK. Cup of tea and on again. My fingers are killing me....London v.cold today!!
BooG, can you repeat 4) but as kioolt says, with the starter disconnected not the starter wires on the relay... and then just connect ICU and then again with just ECU connected. So both disconnected, then one, then the other. My feeling is that one of these is the problem but if not it would be good to be able to eliminate them from the equation.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
  Starting issue.... - Page 2 Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

53Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:45 am

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
To me it is definitely in the switchgear or switchgear wiring.  If I'm reading his tests correctly, switchgear unhooked, starter does not run.  Switchgear hooked up, starter runs. That to me says that he has power on the black/yellow wire coming from the switchgear before he presses the start button.  There should only be power there when pressing the start button.

I suggest that you perform the following check.  Disconnect the right hand switchgear connector.  On the side of the connector going to the switch check for continuity between the black /yellow wire and all of the others.  You should not find any that have continuity.  If you do find continuity between the black/yellow wire and ANY of the other wires that is your problem.  In post 37 you said you check the switchgear for continuity and it was ok.  Did you check ALL of the wire against the black/yellow?


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

54Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:53 am

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
What a Face Gotcha! Back on it!

    

55Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:08 pm

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
Starter is disconnected.
R/H switchgear disconnected. Key on. Voltage to both sides of starter relay.
Same, but with ICU disconnected:Voltage to both sides of starter relay.
Same, but with no ICU and ECU: Voltage to both sides of starter relay.

With r/h switchgear connected, load shed relay removed, key on:click at relay.
With r/h switchgear connected, load shed relay removed, ECU disconnected: Starter relay clicks.
Same, but with ICU disconnected: No click at starter relay.

All connected (except starter)with key on: Black yellow wire has voltage up to green starter switch. Green wire also has voltage up to green starter switch.

    

56Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:05 pm

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
@BooG wrote:Starter is disconnected.
R/H switchgear disconnected. Key on. Voltage to both sides of starter relay.    Do you mean both sides of starter relay contacts or coil? Does starter relay click?
Same, but with ICU disconnected:Voltage to both sides of starter relay.
Same, but with no ICU and ECU: Voltage to both sides of starter relay.

With r/h switchgear connected, load shed relay removed, key on:click at relay.
With r/h switchgear connected, load shed relay removed, ECU disconnected: Starter relay clicks.
Same, but with ICU disconnected: No click at starter relay.  Makes sense since you disconnect the ground side of the starter relay coil when you disconnect the ICU. 

All connected (except starter)with key on: Black yellow wire has voltage up to green starter switch. Green wire also has voltage up to green starter switch.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

57Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:25 pm

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
Starting issue.... - Page 2 8157 I measured the voltage at the live side of the relay (from the battery), and the left side (to the starter motor); the two larger cables, not the red/brown and black yellow connectors. 
The live green wire....should that have voltage with the key turned on? I thought it was only the black and yellow wire that carried voltage up to the green starter switch? Dosen't that mean that voltage is getting passed the load shed relay and up to the switch when its not supposed to?

    

58Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:57 pm

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
@BooG wrote:Starting issue.... - Page 2 8157 I measured the voltage at the live side of the relay (from the battery), and the left side (to the starter motor); the two larger cables, not the red/brown and black yellow connectors. 
The live green wire....should that have voltage with the key turned on? I thought it was only the black and yellow wire that carried voltage up to the green starter switch? Dosen't that mean that voltage is getting passed the load shed relay and up to the switch when its not supposed to?
The green wire on the coil of the load shed relay runs up to the key switch and the kill switch.  It should be hot when the key is on.  

Try the following exactly as I say.

1. Remove the load shed relay.
2. Remove the wire off of the starter.
3. Disconnect the right hand switches.
4. Turn the key on.
5. Measure the voltage at the STARTER wire that you disconnected above.
6. If the voltage is zero, plug the right hand switch connector back together.  Does the voltage go to 12+.
7. If it does, the problem is in your right hand switch wiring or the switch itself.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

59Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:18 pm

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
I've reread some of these posts on your problem.  I gave you wrong information in post 43 when I said that the load shed relay was live with the key off.  Put it doesn't affect you problem.  However the starter relay does have a live wire on it coming from the battery.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

60Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:30 pm

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
I've been studying the diagrams some more.  If you go through the procedure I gave you in post 45 and find that it appears to be the right hand switch or wiring you should probably do one more thing before proceeding.  You need to rule out the Ignition Control Unit because when you unplug the right hand switches you also are turning the power to the ICU off.  This may cause a false conclusion about he right hand switches being bad.  You should unplug the ICU and hook a wire from terminal 85 on the starter relay to ground.

It's only necessary to do this if post 45 shows the right hand switches appear to be bad.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

61Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:02 pm

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
Shocked Thanks for today. I'm getting nearer I feel. I'm beginning to suspect the ICU. I'll try and confirm tomorrow using the steps you've given me. I am determined to get it! Your patience will be rewarded!!

    

62Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:37 pm

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
I don't suspect the ICU yet but I will try to write up a step by step procedure for you to go through before tomorrow that will help you decide.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

63Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:57 pm

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
Troubleshooting starter control circuit on 2 valve K75’s & K100’s when starter energizes as soon as the key is turned to the on position.

To make troubleshooting easier it is best to disconnect the starter wire at the starter and remove the load shed relay.  This will make it possible to leave the key on without having the starter running and the headlight on.  It is also necessary for the correct voltage to be measured at the wire that was removed from the starter.  If you don’t remove the load shed relay, you will read 12v+ at the starter wire anytime the key is on because current will leak through the load shed relay coil seeking its normal ground path through the starter.

Step 1.  Remove the load shed relay.

Step 2. Disconnect the right hand side switchgear at the connector.

Step 3. Remove the plug from the Ignition Control Unit (ICU) under the tank. FYI Terminal 86(black/yellow) of the starter relay is connected to terminal 6 of the ICU.

Step 4. Run a wire from terminal 85 (brown/red)wire color corrected after original post to a good ground.  (This is necessary since the removal of the ICU has caused the starter relay coil (85 to 86) to lose its ground path of pin 11 on the ICU.

Step 5. TURN THE KEY ON.

Step 6. Measure the voltage at the starter wire that was removed from the starter.  Make the measurement from the wire to a good ground.

                If the voltage is 12v+ then the problem is still present.  At this point you have eliminated the ICU as a possible cause of your problem and also the switchgear and associated wiring from the connector to the switchgear.  Jump to step 13.


                If the voltage is 0v then go to the next step.  The problem is in you switchgear, switchgear wiring, or ICU module.

Step 7. TURN THE KEY OFF.

Step 8. Check for continuity from the black/yellow wire on the switchgear connector to ALL of the other wires on the switchgear.  You should not have continuity on any of the other wires to the black/yellow wire.  If you find a wire with continuity to the black/yellow wire it will need to be repaired. 

Step 9. If a problem was found with the wiring in step 8 above you are thru.  Else, reconnect the switchgear connector.

Step 10. Reconnect the switchgear connector. TURN THE KEY ON.  You should still have 0 volts at the starter wire.  Press the start button to see if the voltage goes to 12 volts.  If not, your starter button may be bad or you do not have power on the black/green wire t.  (That’s another write up  to find that.)  Check for continuity between the black/yellow and black/green wires on the switchgear connector with the connector unhooked and the starter button pressed.  Reconnect after fixing any problem with the button.  If you have 12v at the starter wire now you still have a problem with your switchgear or switchgear wiring. You absolutely must get this voltage to zero at this point.  Concentrate on the switchgear.

Step 11. TURN THE KEY OFF.  Remove the wire from terminal 85 that you installed in step 4 above.

Step 12. Reconnect the ICU plug.  At this point if you haven’t repaired any wiring then your problem is still present. You may want to check. It appears that you have a voltage leak through you ICU on Pin 6. A way to find out of this is so is to find some way to disconnect only pin 6 from the ICU, e.g. cut wire, remove pin on connector.


This is the end of the procedure if you read 0V in step 6 above.

Step 13. TURN THE KEY OFF.

Step 14. Remove the wire that you installed in step 6.

Step 15. Reconnect the ICU.

Step 16. Unplug the FICU.

Step 17. TURN THE KEY ON.

Step 18. Measure the voltage at the starter wire again.  If you still have 12v then you have eliminated the ICU, FICU and switchgear and switchgear wiring.  In other words, it is shorted somewhere else.


If the voltage is now zero, it appears that you have a voltage leak through you FICU on Pin 4. A way to find out of this is so is to find some way to disconnect only pin 4 from the FICU, e.g. cut wire, remove pin on connector.
 
 
I hope that I didn’t forget anything.  Let me know how it turns out.



Last edited by kioolt on Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:52 am; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

64Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:07 am

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
Firstly, thanks for outstanding advice! I'm humbled..!
OK, got as far as: ICU unplugged. r/h Switchgear removed. Load shed removed. Wire off at starter. Ground run from red/brown pin 85 in starter relay alongside the already connected red/brown. As I pushed the ground wire into the red/brown connector attached to the starter relay, there was a big fat "click". This happened whether the key was off or on! If the connector was disconnected, and the ground wire run directly to 85, then nothing happens despite key position.

    

65Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:29 am

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
@BooG wrote:Firstly, thanks for outstanding advice! I'm humbled..!
OK, got as far as: ICU unplugged. r/h Switchgear removed. Load shed removed. Wire off at starter. Ground run from red/brown pin 85 in starter relay alongside the already connected red/brown. As I pushed the ground wire into the red/brown connector attached to the starter relay, there was a big fat "click". This happened whether the key was off or on! If the connector was disconnected, and the ground wire run directly to 85, then nothing happens despite key position.
I got the wire color wrong on terminal 85.  It should have been black/yellow.  You may need to check your fuses.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

66Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:49 am

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
I'm wrong again on the color.  It is brown/red that you want to ground.  It's about 5 am over here. I just got up.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

67Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:58 am

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
@kioolt wrote:
@BooG wrote:Firstly, thanks for outstanding advice! I'm humbled..!
OK, got as far as: ICU unplugged. r/h Switchgear removed. Load shed removed. Wire off at starter. Ground run from red/brown pin 85 in starter relay alongside the already connected red/brown. As I pushed the ground wire into the red/brown connector attached to the starter relay, there was a big fat "click". This happened whether the key was off or on! If the connector was disconnected, and the ground wire run directly to 85, then nothing happens despite key position.
I got the wire color wrong on terminal 85.  It should have been black/yellow.  You may need to check your fuses.
I think I'm on to something here.  Measure the voltage on terminal 86 (black/yellow) with the key off.  It should be 0v.  It shouldn't have 12v until the key is on and the start button is pressed.  The click you got when hooking up the ground wire indicates that you have 12 volt constant on terminal 86.  This is wrong.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

68Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:52 am

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
Shocked You are right! This has coincided with my spare relays arriving from motorworks. So...I've popped in a (second hand) starter and load shed relay(s). Re-connected the switchgear. Plugged in ICU. Key to on...no click. Pressed starter...big fat click!! Oh good! Key off. So, re-connected the starter wire, and key to on...everything showing as it should. One small press on green button and there is the turnover..but...I'm not risking it on the existing charge!! Battery is charging as I write this and as soon as it is ready, I'll go for a test. Up to this point, it looks like power has been getting through the starter relay somehow, and bypassing the green starter switch. I had the switchgear out and tested/cleaned it again. There was no continuity between black/yellow and any other wire.
That ground test from 85 was the one!! Thanks for pointing that out and telling me how. Fingers crossed!

    

69Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:27 pm

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
Excellent result Starting issue.... - Page 2 112350


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
  Starting issue.... - Page 2 Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

70Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:53 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

92KK 84WW Olaf
Life time member
Life time member
KH and kioolt are a long way away from us but they deserve a beer for this one. A really good example of how the forum works so well. The best I can say is if either of you take a visit over this way you will be very welcome and will find a Guinness waiting.

The thing about going through all this is that you gain a lot of knowledge about your own K........that's never a loss. And the cost, 2 used relays from Motorworks.....

Boog....Born Again Eccentric and I believe Becky are taking a camping trip over here at the beginning of August and we are meeting up at Stradbally at 8th August.....a chance for you to try out your newly sorted out K and enjoy some rural Irish roads.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Alaska Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 100,380 miles
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell No 33,600 miles
    

71Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:41 am

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
Starting issue.... - Page 2 502531 I have a running K75!! Wow...that was a mission! I cannot thank everyone enough for the help and support in sorting the problem out. I rely on the K75 for work, and as such, it is very important to me. I live in London, where it costs £20 to leave your front door(!?), so I rely on being able to keep my costs down. I feel that I have been part of a truly
international effort. You have all rocked my world!! I have learnt so much, and I hope in the future that I can offer the same level of support to someone who needs it! The cost? two relays and a bag of latex gloves..twas dirty under there! 
Camping sounds great....but....I got married this year so I am committed to a "Honeymoon" with my wife and daughter over the summer....maybe I'll dump em and go anyway!! Keep me in the loop!!!

    

72Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:54 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

92KK 84WW Olaf
Life time member
Life time member
Well, home is first, no doubt about that.

But if you do all venture over together do let us know....the beer will still be there. Some really nice places to go, ok weather can be variable but it can be good with the right type of tent.

Does the congestion charge apply to the K75 as well?

My eldest daughter lives in London, out a bit at a nice place called Long Marston since last summer but she commutes to Mayfair. Train all the way and avoids driving. Was going to take a bike trip over some time.....she tells me on the eone hand they are too busy and she has no room and then tells me she needs some painting done...


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Alaska Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 100,380 miles
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell No 33,600 miles
    

73Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:01 am

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
I'm glad I was able to help.  I'm not a K-Bike expert but I had owned a 91 K100LT since 1991 and by doing so I have learned a lot.  The only problems I have ever had with my starting system were welded contacts on the starter relay and worn brushes in the starter.  My profession was for 35 years an industrial electrician before I retired.  In my profession I mainly did electrical troubleshooting of high speed industrial machinery. I was actually surprised when the problem turned out to be the starter relay.  I do see how it is possible but I didn't think it was probable.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

74Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:16 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

92KK 84WW Olaf
Life time member
Life time member
Starter relay surprised me too. But Ks do surprise sometimes....

The methodical approach was certainly very helpful, never dismissing any possibilities.

As for 35 years with high speed industrial machinery......doesn't a K fit that description...!!!


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Alaska Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 100,380 miles
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell No 33,600 miles
    

75Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:20 am

Born Again Eccentric

Born Again Eccentric
Life time member
Life time member
@BooG wrote:Starting issue.... - Page 2 502531 I have a running K75!! ....

Camping sounds great....but....I got married this year so I am committed to a "Honeymoon" with my wife and daughter over the summer....maybe I'll dump em and go anyway!! Keep me in the loop!!!
On the first point - Great result BooG Starting issue.... - Page 2 Icon_cheers  I wasn't able to contribute to your fix as this is not a problem that I have encountered (yet) but it highlights the strength of the Forum - someone, somewhere will have had a similar problem and/or have a particular skill set hat they are willing to share to help us mere mortals get stuck in and fix problems. As both Olaf & Ki00lt say, getting stuck in helps us learn about our bikes and gain proficiency (and we save megabucks in the process). The other benefit of the Forum is that your problem and solution are now available to help others if/when they suffer the same problem. 

On the second point - don't even think about the "dump 'em and go" option! Life is a balance and hopefully you can get that balance right to be allowed to come out and play now and again, with her blessing. You'll enjoy it more and it is cheaper in the long run!


__________________________________________________
Starting issue.... - Page 2 Uk-log10 Starting issue.... - Page 2 Sco-lo15Starting issue.... - Page 2 Eu-log10
                              Paul  Starting issue.... - Page 2 905546712

"Heidi" K100LT 1991 (Grey) (VIN 0190172 Engine No. 104EB 2590 2213) - 5th owner. January 2014 (34,000 - 61,000 miles and counting....)
"Gretel" K100LT 1989 (Silver Grey) (VIN 0177324 Engine No. 104EA 2789 2211) - 4th+ owner. September 2015 (58,500miles and counting....). Cat C Insurance write-off rebuild Feb 17
"Donor" K100LT 1990 (Red)  (VIN 0178091 Engine No. 4489 2024) - 6th & final owner (crash write-off now donor bike).   June 2012 (73,000 miles) to November 2013 (89,500 miles)
    

76Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:26 am

Inge K.

Inge K.
VIP
VIP
@kioolt wrote:I was actually surprised when the problem turned out to be the starter relay.  I do see how it is possible but I didn't think it was probable.

+1.............and congrats with the result Starting issue.... - Page 2 112350 .


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

77Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:02 am

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
Very Happy Wise words all round! 
Regarding the relay...I read about diodes in some relays, and presumably, if the diode is toast then power can come and go as it pleases across it? This was informative:
http://www.bcae1.com/relays.htm
My daughter can't wait to get on the bike, but she's only 4. My wife...not so much! But I love her!!!

    

78Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:35 am

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
@BooG wrote:......
My daughter can't wait to get on the bike, but she's only 4. My wife...not so much! But I love her!!!
Maybe you could post a pic of you and your daughter on the bike on this thread...
http://www.k100-forum.com/t9370-like-father-like-daughter


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
  Starting issue.... - Page 2 Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

79Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:57 am

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
@BooG wrote:Very Happy Wise words all round! 
Regarding the relay...I read about diodes in some relays, and presumably, if the diode is toast then power can come and go as it pleases across it? This was informative:
http://www.bcae1.com/relays.htm
My daughter can't wait to get on the bike, but she's only 4. My wife...not so much! But I love her!!!
In the case of the diode in the load shed relay, if it were to short it would blow a fuse and also the headlight would not have been turning off as it did when it was starting.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

80Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:55 pm

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
Laughing Yeah...I know what you mean. I don't actually understand how the power gets through, but it has. The contacts were always working, so that only leaves the diode(s). I could probably explore the issue with the old starter; even try re-soldering a diode in!! I wouldn't have said that 7 days ago!!

    

81Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:51 am

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
@BooG wrote:Laughing Yeah...I know what you mean. I don't actually understand how the power gets through, but it has. The contacts were always working, so that only leaves the diode(s). I could probably explore the issue with the old starter; even try re-soldering a diode in!! I wouldn't have said that 7 days ago!!
Boog, I don't think you can say 100% the starter contacts were working. Logic says that the starter relay contacts had to be closed (ie OPEN circuit) to produce the symptoms you had. My post #52 suggested you should've used a meter to make absolutely sure. But even so, if the starter relay diode was faulty, I doubt it would be the cause of the symptoms you had. The diode in the starter relay is simply a surge suppression mechanism to protect both the ECU and ICU from back EMF generated in the coil. If the diode went CLOSED circuit the starter relay would not work because the control coil is now by-passed by the faulty diode to earth. If the diode went OPEN circuit the coil would work as normal (but any back EMF generated by the coil when it shut down, would be shunted back to the ICU & ECU causing possibe damage).

There is an easy way to test the diode. The diode and coil are connected in parrallel with each other. With the relay disconnected, measure the impedance (ohms) from one side of the coil/diode to the other (term 85 & 86). Then reverse the meter leads and measure again. If the readings are different the diode is ok. If the readings are the same the diode is Kaput.

If the load shed relay was faulty in some way, there could be a possibility of power to the starter motor bypassing the start button. Possibly a dud diode might do that??? scratch

One thing I'm not clear on. You replaced both load shed and starter relays?? Did you work out for sure which one was the culprit?

Cheers mate
Enjoy the ride


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
  Starting issue.... - Page 2 Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

82Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:04 am

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
you probably wont be able to detect the diode  by that measurement  as the coil is lower impedance than the diode ... the meter may not  see the difference as they are in parallel .

you may have to get into the relay  to lift one end of the diode and take it out of circuit (or cut one lead of it ) to measure it




more likely that the contacts of the relay have become high resistance ( most likely ) from  heat distortion and arcing

would be a good idea to inspect the contacts on the relay with a good closeup view ...;or with the relay removed from the system ...just measure the resistance across the contacts  with the meter set for low ohms ...I wouldn't be surprised to see a couple of ohms resistance with the contacts closed

you could activate the relay with a battery whilst testing ? 

just a heads up


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OStarting issue.... - Page 2 Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

83Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:18 am

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
I'm assuming you're referring to the power coming through the key switch then to the load shed relay coil then through the shorted diode and then to the starter.  There is also a fuse in there somewhere.  Under this scenario I believe one of several things would happen.

1.  The small gauge wire in this circuit path would melt, or
2.  The fuse would blow, or
3.  The diode would visibly blow open.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

84Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:40 am

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
some times they just don't show that they have gone open circuit ...except for measuring

a reverse polarity blow a diode apart ....but a piv ( peak inverse voltage ) small amount of verry high voltage ) can break the diode junction internally  with no obvious clues  from the outside

cheers



Last edited by charlie99 on Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:23 am; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OStarting issue.... - Page 2 Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

85Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:52 am

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
@kioolt wrote:I'm assuming you're referring to the power coming through the key switch then to the load shed relay coil then through the shorted diode and then to the starter.  There is also a fuse in there somewhere.  Under this scenario I believe one of several things would happen.

1.  The small gauge wire in this circuit path would melt, or
2.  The fuse would blow, or
3.  The diode would visibly blow open.
Yeah... Probably right there. It wasn't something I'd seriously concidered
I'm just wondering why both relays were replaced
EDIT: and what was really wrong with the starter relay?



Last edited by Kaptain Holister on Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:58 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added a question)


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
  Starting issue.... - Page 2 Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

86Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:46 pm

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
To be honest, it was real cheap to replace (load shed), so I replaced it because it was part of the circuit I was working on...not because I had any evidence it was faulty. As such, I have no clear indication of where the fault really was, but it seems reasonable to think it was with one of the relays.
So nice to be back on the 75 today. Starting seems very eager now with a fully charged battery/new relays and arguably the cleanest r/h switchgear in the world!!
I'll try and do some diode testing at some stage...playing catch up at the moment!

    

87Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:26 am

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
Just for everyones information... Been doing a bit of fact finding on this starter relay/diode thing. I took mine out to have a look. The circuit diagram printed on the side indicates no diode and I could find no diode inside... only a resistor.
Apparently the original starter relay in the Ks had no diode, however, newer Bosch/Tyco relays for the K Series which has 2 diodes to prevent damage to the electronics are available from euromotoelectrics.com  
The price seems pretty good too.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
  Starting issue.... - Page 2 Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

88Back to top Go down   Starting issue.... - Page 2 Empty Re: Starting issue.... on Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:32 pm

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
Shocked Well, I'd better work it out, coz it just happened again!! Running fine till yesterday, then for no apparent reason: same 
thing again! Bike started though, and I actually ran her down the road and back, but really "lumpy", (no pick up in first gear), and my apparent triumph has been short lived. Here we go again!! At least I can make a headstart this time as I know where to look!

    

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