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51Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:45 pm

MartinW


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There you go problem solved, not that there really was a problem. I picked the last 1/4" Bspt  Allen plug in the area. Picked up some stainless plate for the brackets,I now need to order a clinometer, and a boost gauge. Feeling a bit slack today so I might just paint it and do the brackets on Friday.
Regards Martin.

    

52Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:46 am

charlie99

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would it make sense that a temperature gauge could be fitted ??  or is that just being silly ????


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

53Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:36 am

MartinW

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Charlie I thought about fitting a temperature gauge but I couldn't find one that fitted in. I do however have a laser temperature gun and have been recording fuel rail and tank temperatures. Unfortunately since I have started recording we haven't had any real scorchers. I am going to hook it up at first so I can easily take the cooler in and out of line. If I carry my temperature gauge I should be able to get some sort of data on the cooler.
Regards Martin.

    

54Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:48 am

charlie99

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perhaps just tank temps would  be a good standard martin

I know my tank temps went from in the high 50s -low 60s down to ambient air temperatures , with my implementation

not sure that the available btu cooling effects of air along the cooler at an oblique angle , and behind a fairing structure will make a lot of difference , all of the time .

but at a minimum will make some difference


looking forward to see some results as they come in

good experimenting indeed ...enjoy


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

55Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:46 am

MartinW

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Where it is situated it does get air flow from forward motion and air off the fan when stationary. I also have room to mill fins into the back of it, if needed. I might even do that anyway to see if it further reduces temperatures. If it doesn't work there is always cooler MK2 in the wings.
Regards Martin.

    

56Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:26 am

blaKey

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"I do however have a laser temperature gun..."

Why don't you mount a leather holster using that spare hole so you can take the gun with you when riding?

I bet that'll get 'em talking!


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K100RS 1986 RED!

Dress for the ride and the potential slide.
    

57Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:28 am

MartinW

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I could do that, but I have a slight aversion to being shot at, and I don't like prison food.
Regards Martin.

    

58Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:21 am

MartinW

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After a lot of head scratching I decided not to mount the cooler off the stainless steel bar that runs across the front of the throttle bodies. The bolts are only 5mm and if mounted flush to the rail impede access to the vacuum ports. I was going to try heavy Velcro, so I had a look at what Bunnings had to offer and found something that has heaps more grip. Had a bit of stuffing around routing the hoses, eventually got something that worked. The return hose has not been altered in length and therefore the cooler can be taken out of the circuit at anytime. Even though the new type of Velcro is extremely good I added a safety strap as a precaution. I had a minor fuel weep on start up from one off the Allen plugs just required a minor nip up. The only problem was the paint which although drying for two days is still tacky, could have been the humidity. I will have to strip it and repaint at some stage. We are coming up to some hot days so I will take the laser temp gun with me and try and get some readings.
Regards Martin.


    

59Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:35 am

MartinW

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Bricks been playing up, battery going flat and running rough intermittently. A new regulator fixed the charging problem. I did a short run a mx of 60 and 80 KPH roads, and when I got home I checked the inlet versus the outlet temperature. Todays temperature was 29 deg the  comparison revealed a 4-5 deg drop. I'm not sure that is enough to cure the vaporization problem until I see what happens in traffic on a hot day. Further modification to the back of the cooler by milling more fins may reduce the temperature further. I will not be able to access the mill until early next year. In the meantime I will continue to monitor the temperatures. I don't have the time at the moment to chase the rough running and misfire, I need to do temperature reading on the header pipes, which requires removing the belly pan.
Regards Martin.

    

60Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:13 am

Point-Seven-five

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4-5C isn't bad.  Be aware that the cooling will increase as the approach temperature increases.  The hotter the fuel gets the more cooling you get.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1994 K75S
1992 K100RS

Past:
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

61Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:47 am

Laitch

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@MartinW wrote:Bricks been playing up, . . . running rough intermittently. . . . the rough running and misfire . . .
Did this performance issue exist before the cooler's installation?


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1995 K75T 68,000 miles
    

62Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:07 pm

MartinW

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No Laitch I suspect one of the injectors, it is intermittent, occasionally running fine. However the Honourable Ministers is flying down to Victoria to visit our son his partner and our newly arrived granddaughter. At the moment I don't have anytime to diagnose the Brick. We are having our Christmas day today with the rest of my family. Spent most of yesterday with the Lamborghini and whipper snipper doing edges and hedges. The Minister is gone for two weeks as of the 22 nd of Dec, the two daughters gave her a airline ticket for her birthday. I will then have time to properly diagnose it. santa rendeer
Regards Martin.

    

63Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:22 pm

Laitch

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@Laitch wrote:
@MartinW wrote:Bricks been playing up, . . . running rough intermittently. . . . the rough running and misfire . . .
Did this performance issue exist before the cooler's installation?
Because you answered "No", if it were my bike I'd bypass the cooler and take it for a nice warm ride to see if it acts up. Turbulence or obstruction within it might be causing problems.

It was -2ºF here this morning, but it has been a beautiful windless day. Smile


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1995 K75T 68,000 miles
    

64Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:20 pm

MartinW

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Thanks Laitch bypassing the cooler is on my list, but I have already blown it out. As all the galleries are 10mm I don't believe it is restricted, but weird things can and do happen. I've already changed the spark plugs, so my next step will be to take it for a ride without the cooler and belly pan and if it's still playing up check the header temperatures. I have spare injectors and access to other parts if I have to do the replacement test. This is the first time in twenty years that it has given me trouble aside from the two temp sender faults. But it has always got me home.
Merry Pre Christmas and a Happy New Year. santa rendeer

    

65Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:31 pm

Point-Seven-five

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How is that darn four pin fuel tank connector???   Did you remove the tank to install the cooler?  

One of the problems I had with the connector on my RS was intermittant hesitation and stumbling when the connection wasn't bad enough to kill the engine entirely.  Vibrations from the engine and road probably caused the problem.

I had to crimp the female connectors a bit to get a better connection.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1994 K75S
1992 K100RS

Past:
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

66Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:38 pm

MartinW

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Thanks Gryph I'll add that to the list to check. I might be able to get onto it on Monday.
Regards Martin.

    

67Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:03 pm

Point-Seven-five

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Good luck!


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1994 K75S
1992 K100RS

Past:
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

68Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:59 pm

MartinW

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I went for a test ride minus the belly pan. It was still occasionally misfiring but would still manage to get up to speed I clocked 140 Kph and still accelerating. Put the temperature gauge on the headers all even, pulled the plugs and they were black sooty and dry. Check the spark intensity which was good. Removed the cooler to take it out of the equation, then tried to start it. It would fire and try to run but after a few tries it would not even cough. scratch 

Listened for the fuel pump but I couldn't hear it, so I disconnected the fuel line and placed it in a container to be sure. No fuel flow so I went straight to the 4 pin connector and found no power. Went to the fuse and no power, popped the tank up and pulled the relay. Which tested as faulty so I replaced it with an old scungy one that tested OK and the pump sprang to life.

This whole saga was a bit strange normally relays either go or don't go? And why did it start to fail after I had just fitted the cooler? Also to add to the slight confusion was the alternator playing up and failing to charge. The battery is still not as good as it used to be so it maybe getting replaced.  I did however learn a bit more about fault finding, go step by step and follow the logical path even if it doesn't seem logical at time.  And follow the K bike flow chart.
 
I am going to have to wait until the honourable Minister gets home so I can go and get a new relay. And hopefully it will now behave itself. however it is the original relay.
Regards Martin.

    

69Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:49 am

MartinW

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I ended up with a 40 amp relay from the local Repco. I fitted it and it fired right up, battery is still not real good so I'm going to charge it overnight. I will give it a run tomorrow before I refit the cooler and put it fully back together. Sometime during the week I'll order another battery probably a DynaVolt as Revplus don't make the one that suits the Brick anymore. I did look at Motobatt but found a couple of articles saying that the quality has dropped and they now used recycled lead in their batteries.
Regards Martin.

    

70Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:05 am

charlie99

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the fuel relay really doesn't only control the pump ..the under seat efi controller as well  and if getting intermittent voltages can really give interesting to say the least, operations

good luck with the battery  and charge system

cheers


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

71Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:02 pm

MartinW

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Problem solved, but really confusing at times. I am the second owner I've had it for twenty years, as an act of presumed kindness the previous owner had marked all the relays with stick on paper labels. All the small relays were marked incorrectly, so when I was checking what was marked as fuel pump it was actually the horn relay. Inge set me on the correct course, thanks Inge. Now with the relay correctly identified the next problem occurred, the fuel pump relay had been replaced with a Narva relay.

When I got my Brick it came with heaps of goodies and assorted bits which include a relay which I recovered out of my spares. It to had a paper label marked as load shed relay. I was still not sure so I went around to a mates place, he is a Sparky and has a collection of Bricks and parts. He ran a meter over the Narva and the OEM relay marked load shed and confirmed different configurations. Further testing confirmed the Narva relay was occasionally cutting out. The OEM however appeared to be OK but he gave me a spare relay that he had, so the fog is finally lifted.

Rob also came up with a non OEM replacement which can be used with slight modification. With the new OEM relay the Brick fired up I went for a short ride and no missing or cutting out which I am now assuming was caused by the faulty Narva relay. I'll still have to replace the battery as it doesn't seem to be holding it's charge as well as it used to. It is 5-6 years old so I am going to order a Dynavolt,
I was going to try a Mottobat but apparently their quality has fallen off. Thanks to Inge and Rob.
Regards Martin.

    

72Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:12 am

MartinW

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Had a busy day up at 0200 am took the Honourable Minister for Finance and Recreation to the airport. First I repainted my fuel cooler and as soon as the shops opened went and picked up my new battery Dynavolt. Fitted the new battery with a bit of stuffing round with the connections 90 deg out. Put the tank back on and went to fire it up and now had a bad 4 pin connector. It rarely plays up it has only happened a couple of times previously. I ran out of DeoxIT a couple of years ago, so I bit the bullet and went down to Jaycar and bought the new DeoxIT two very small cans $30.00 Au and a 4pin waterproof connector $20.00 Au. I was going to change the connector if the DeoxIT didn't work, but it did. I've only used the one tin type the new one has gold protector in the second can. It fixed the problem so I will leave the connector for another time. The paint seems to be drying better this time, but I'll wait till morning before refitting it.
Regards Martin.

    

73Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:44 am

charlie99

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yeah good advice to wait a little longer for the paint to dry

good luck


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

74Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:41 am

Dai

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@MartinW wrote:This whole saga was a bit strange normally relays either go or don't go?
If only that were true. If a coil wire breaks where it's soldered, good old vibration can give you an infuriating intermittant fault.


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

75Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:52 pm

MartinW

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True Dai, but I now have a source of relays. Rob has one that requires a wiring plug wire switch https://kisantech.com/mag/h0004.html and I have found  https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DME-Fuel-Pump-Relay-BMW-E36-E39-E38-E53-X5-Z3-12631711266/252650083537?  A mate who has a  son that's an auto electrician has said a few models of Holden Commodores may have the same relay. If and when I find the particular model I'll post it.
Regards Martin.

    

76Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:22 pm

MartinW

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Refitted the newly painted cooler. And I encountered a slight side effect from fitting it. When the fuel level drops, but not low enough to activate the low fuel light the pump starts to scream like a banshee. I removed the filler cap and had a look, the bottom half of the pump was fully submerged. I was wondering whether the pump had picked up something? It has got a fully intact OEM screen. I decided the first thing was to eliminate the cooler as a problem so I removed it first. As soon as it was removed the noise disappeared.   It is weird it didn't do it with a full tank. On my first test run it made that noise as I was on my way to fill up with fuel it stalled just before the service station and refused to start. With great effort and nearly blacking out I managed to get it to the servo. Once refuelled it fired right up rode it home  no noise.  This was the first time I had ever run out of fuel on the Brick and there was no warning light. When I got it home the relay and four pin connector saga started. I tried to look up where the return line comes out in the tank, I was going to try and add a bit of hose tomorrow to see if that makes any difference. At the moment the solution to the vaporization problem, seems to be a double edged sword. Low fuel with no cooler vaporization, low fuel with a cooler screaming banshee. 
Regards Martin.

    

77Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:16 pm

Dai

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@MartinW wrote:few models of Holden Commodores
Better grab them quick off the Aussie ones then Razz Razz Twisted Evil


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

78Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:08 pm

MartinW

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Thanks I now have two OEM relays stored in the relay box under the tank.
Regards Martin.

    

79Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:11 am

Andrew2

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Could it be that the pump noise is always there and being dampened by the full tank.



Last edited by Andrew2 on Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:30 am; edited 1 time in total


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1987 K100RS
    

80Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:05 am

MartinW

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With the cooler removed the noise disappears.   I've got a pulled shoulder at the moment which I made worse by going for a ride and then fitting the cooler. I'm still trying to work out what's going on I can't work out why the cooler in the line would cause this. At the moment without the cooler and with the same level of fuel it is dead quiet. The galleries in the cooler are 10mm but the 8mm barb fitting could be causing a restriction, might have to drill them out. The only other possible solution may lie in relocating where the return line dumps the fuel. Early next year I will have access to a mill and I could make another cooler with radius turns instead of the right angle ones
Regards a perplexed Martin.



Last edited by MartinW on Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

    

81Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:51 am

Point-Seven-five

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Is it possible there is some resonance in the cooler's mounting?

Regarding turbulance, it's your friend in a heat transfer situation.  Laminar flow can reduce heat transfer by significant amounts.  I doubt there is enough energy in the turbulant flow to make the cooler vibrate.  Possibly the hoses connecting it to the tank. 

Is the cooler cantilevered out by it's mount allowing it to flex the mount?  What does the noise do if the cooler is still in the fuel circuit but not firmly attached to the bike?  If anything, I would suspect engine vibration shaking the cooler and feeding that vibration back into the frame or whatever the cooler is attached to.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1994 K75S
1992 K100RS

Past:
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

82Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:26 pm

MartinW

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The cooler is mounted to the air box with heavy duty mushroom headed Velcro. I do not believe vibration could be transmitted to the frame. I went and got extra fuel so I can play with fuel levels, but changing levels does not really solve the problem. Against the advice of the absent Minister for Finance and Recreation I might have a play with it today. If I can I will try and record the sound and download it. The only thing that I can think might be causing the noise is the cooler is acting as a restriction. This increases the output pressure and this is disturbing the flow in the tank causing a vortex around the pump causing it to suck air. But this sounds a bit like I sense a disturbance in the Force Luke.
I am now going out to refit it which is a pain, literally. I need to find my Light Sabre.
Regards Obi Wan Martin.



Last edited by MartinW on Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

    

83Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:04 pm

indian036

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It would be a bit of mucking around with hoses, but it would be interesting to see what happens if the cooler is on the return line rather than the pressure line.  Smile

Bill


__________________________________________________
1985 K100RT  VIN 0028991  My original Very Happy   (Historic rego)
1985 K100RT  VIN 0029036  BOB the Blue Old Bike  (Historic rego)
1990 K100LT  VIN 0190452  Work in progress
1984 K100RT  VIN 0023022  Work needing lots of progress

1986 K100RT  VIN 0090542  Work needing lots and lots of progress
1993 K1100LT  VIN 0183046  Work in progress
1993 K75S  VIN 0213045  Newest toy, slightly non-original
    

84Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:32 pm

MartinW

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Bill it is in the return line. However with the aid of my trusty Light Sabre (screwdriver ) the disturbance in the Force been vanquished. I changed the following things I substituted the top right angle cooler fitting for a straight one. Switched over the in and out lines. Rerouted the lines to eliminated any possibility of a kinked line when pushing back the tank in position. This now involved having to loosen the fairing (K75s) in order to tighten the return line hose clamp. On start up the Force was calm and silent. So fellow Jedi what do you think caused the disturbance in the force. It was not Darth Vader.
Regards Obi Wan Martin.

    

85Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:39 pm

indian036

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I remembered seeing your pressure gauge in an earlier post, and didn't go back to read the text, assuming a pressure gauge would only be useful in the pressure line.  Smile

Glad to hear all is well.

Bill


__________________________________________________
1985 K100RT  VIN 0028991  My original Very Happy   (Historic rego)
1985 K100RT  VIN 0029036  BOB the Blue Old Bike  (Historic rego)
1990 K100LT  VIN 0190452  Work in progress
1984 K100RT  VIN 0023022  Work needing lots of progress

1986 K100RT  VIN 0090542  Work needing lots and lots of progress
1993 K1100LT  VIN 0183046  Work in progress
1993 K75S  VIN 0213045  Newest toy, slightly non-original
    

86Back to top Go down    Re: K75RT Fuel Cooler on Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:35 am

charlie99

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the fuel pressure regulator pulses the high pressure line with the port vacuum from the throttle bodies activating it  but I think there may have been a restriction going on , which you have removed by the sound of it , good luck


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

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