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1Back to top Go down   Starter motor wont stop............. Empty Starter motor wont stop............. Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:53 am

andyb

andyb
Gold member
Gold member
Hi all, a couple of weeks ago I went to start the bike in the morning to go to work, and the starter wouldnt stop.
the only way I could stop it was to rush and grab an Allen key and remove the earth lead off the engine case.

I replaced the starter relay under the tank with another, 2nd hand unit, and all was good for a week, then its done it again.  Now I'm wondering if the 2nd hand unit is also buggered or maybe the problem is lying elsewhere?

I've Looked through some of the posts.....to test the starter relay do I just put the mutli meter onto its posts and if I get 12v its fried?

Reading the posts I'm wondering should I be going into the starter motor to give it a good clean? Its used almost daily to get to work, battery is strong it must have cranked for a good 3-4 minutes while I accessed the Allen keys without slowing down.......

where else can it go wrong - almost too afraid to get this bit answered....;-)

advice on what else to check? starter switch?

thanks heaps!


__________________________________________________
AndyB
'03 K1200GT,

'88 K100 RT
Chassis number: 0097248 ; Vehicle code: 0504; Series: K589
Model: K100RT 84 (0504 (0505) Body Type: K100RT 84 (0504)
Catalog Model: ECE; Engine: (0504); Production: 1988/9
Starter motor wont stop............. 13763011
    

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
probably outside the starter switch andy

but wouldn't be a bad idea to clean the contacts ...and check that the spring is returning the pushbutton to the right place ...deteriorating plastics could let it bind a bit ...so lubricate that

more than likely the brushes in the starter is the issue ...causing big currents in the starter motor relay .... which we all know causes some welding of the contacts to happen ...in bad cases  the kit for the brushes ...( 2 bits ....plate and brush and positive brush ) aren't expensive to replace - purchase


can I add that many of us have upgraded the negative cable from the battery to the gearbox connection point to overcome the voltage drop under starting conditions ...that particular cable is woesome after many years and possibly some corrosion between the surfaces ...and breakage off some of the cores of the copper along the path ..resulting in more current being drawn .

a disassembly of the starter relay and a little light buffing of the contact surfaces might help ...be careful not to gouge big bits of contact plating out of the points contact area

hope that helps ...

and good to see you still riding the k mate ...cheers


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OStarter motor wont stop............. Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

Dai

Dai
Life time member
Life time member
You're right in that it's either the starter switch or the starter relay. One way of checking the starter relay follows:

Disconnect the wrires from pins 85 and 86 (red-brown and black yellow - they're the two with the 1/4" / 6.25mm spade terminals) and also pin 87 (the one that goes to the starter motor). Earth pin 86, then with another piece of wire,  briefly connect pin 85 to pin 30. Each time you do this, you should hear the starter relay make and break. It's an operational test only.

As it happens, for once I don't agree with Charlie. I think your culprit is the starter switch; quite possibly a broken return spring that's allowing it to make intermittant contact from road vibration.

So now prove me wrong... Starter motor wont stop............. 44271


__________________________________________________
1983 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec, 1987 K100RT
Others...
1978 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, 1979 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,1993 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California
2020 Royal Enfield Bullet 500
    

Brad-Man

Brad-Man
Life time member
Life time member
You may want to check your battery - if it is not up to snuff it can cause the contacts in the relay to weld together...



Last edited by Brad-Man on Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:25 pm; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________
Toys don't make the man - Man makes the toys....
Starter motor wont stop............. Usa-lo10
    

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
@Dai wrote:As it happens, for once I don't agree with Charlie. I think your culprit is the starter switch; quite possibly a broken return spring that's allowing it to make intermittant contact from road vibration.

So now prove me wrong... Starter motor wont stop............. 44271
If the starter switch is the problem then the key switch would be able to turn it off.  The OP said the only way he could stop the starter was to disconnect the ground.  That equals starter relay or some short on the relay control wires (small wires) to some unknown circuit.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

andyb

andyb
Gold member
Gold member
Thanks guys, starter button itself seems ok but i'll check it out anyway.....
Does the relay come apart fairly easy to check it? I'm thinking the starter motor route.
When I get time I'll whip it out and have a squiz at it. Let you know what I find......

Yes Charlie, she get used equally as much as the K12GT, actually I find it easier in the city traffic stop start, and I still am very attached to her Smile. Now that Ive done the 12 rivet shaft and all things on the way to it she purrs like a kitten, as she should!


By the way, is there an alternative relay we can get in Oz that doesnt cost the earth???


__________________________________________________
AndyB
'03 K1200GT,

'88 K100 RT
Chassis number: 0097248 ; Vehicle code: 0504; Series: K589
Model: K100RT 84 (0504 (0505) Body Type: K100RT 84 (0504)
Catalog Model: ECE; Engine: (0504); Production: 1988/9
Starter motor wont stop............. 13763011
    

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
If you've got a multimeter you can check the relay while it's installed.  You can check for voltage on the coil circuit (2 small wires).  Measure the voltage across the two wires, not to ground.  Voltage should be zero when not trying to start and 12v when trying to start.  My bet is that you will find zero there when not trying to start.  Next step would be to unhook the starter wire from the relay and measure the resistance.  You should have an open circuit across the two big terminals.  If you have anything but zero at this point, your starter relay contacts are welded together.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

andyb

andyb
Gold member
Gold member
@kioolt wrote:If you've got a multimeter you can check the relay while it's installed.  You can check for voltage on the coil circuit (2 small wires).  Measure the voltage across the two wires, not to ground.  Voltage should be zero when not trying to start and 12v when trying to start.  My bet is that you will find zero there when not trying to start.  Next step would be to unhook the starter wire from the relay and measure the resistance.  You should have an open circuit across the two big terminals.  If you have anything but zero at this point, your starter relay contacts are welded together.

Thanks for that info Kioolt!

So I can do this without the batt. earth connected yes? or else she'll be trying to start........


__________________________________________________
AndyB
'03 K1200GT,

'88 K100 RT
Chassis number: 0097248 ; Vehicle code: 0504; Series: K589
Model: K100RT 84 (0504 (0505) Body Type: K100RT 84 (0504)
Catalog Model: ECE; Engine: (0504); Production: 1988/9
Starter motor wont stop............. 13763011
    

RicK G

RicK G
admin
admin
Do the tests with the wire fron relay to starter disconnected.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
The earth ground will have to be hooked up for the relay test.  Unhook the starter wire, tape it up and do the checks.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
@kioolt wrote:The earth ground will have to be hooked up for the relay test.  Unhook the starter wire, tape it up and do the checks.

a good suggestion

not to hard to prove andy ...  and the relay is pretty easy to open up ...once out

don't have a aussie equivalent link mate ...but young mr alby  did buy a locally sourced item at a reasonable cost from memory ... ebay sometimes can be a friend .

cheers


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OStarter motor wont stop............. Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
@kioolt wrote:....
Next step would be to unhook the starter wire from the relay and measure the resistance.  You should have an open circuit across the two big terminals.  If you have anything but zero at this point, your starter relay contacts are welded together.
kioolt, I know you meant to say "If you have anything but infinite at this point, your starter relay contacts are welded together."

Andyb, although you're measuring resistance you're only interested in 'infinite' resistance (1 on your DMM) = contacts open. ie, open circuit = Relay good (providing there's zero voltage on the coil).
'Zero' resistance (or very small reading on the DMM) = contacts closed (welded). ie, closed circuit.

Gets a little confusing so I like to use the diode/continuity setting on the DMM. Beep means contacts closed. No beep means contacts open.

If you buy a secondhand relay best to open it up when you get it to make sure the contacts are in good condition or ask the seller to check.

Find the cause of the welded contacts before attempting another start otherwise you'll just fry the contacts again. Bad battery (pretty common), worn starter brushes or poor starter earth return (corrosion).


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Starter motor wont stop............. Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
Yes you're right Kaptain Hollister.  This stuff is second nature to me.  I guess I was tying to make sure I gave complete enough instructions that I lost sight of what I was tying to say.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

andyb

andyb
Gold member
Gold member
Hi, these are more like a reasonable price............Same???

Starter motor wont stop............. _1411

Starter motor wont stop............. _1510

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/291109710293?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT



And also this site looks promising for parts at a good price too:

http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/


__________________________________________________
AndyB
'03 K1200GT,

'88 K100 RT
Chassis number: 0097248 ; Vehicle code: 0504; Series: K589
Model: K100RT 84 (0504 (0505) Body Type: K100RT 84 (0504)
Catalog Model: ECE; Engine: (0504); Production: 1988/9
Starter motor wont stop............. 13763011
    

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
That's the right one. Looks like a really good price.
The relay from EME will be about twice the price by the time you add shipping to Oz, but it has diodes to protect the ECU from back emf. They weren't originally like that and its not totally necessary. Just a precaution.

Did you find the fault because if you have to order starter brushes the best place is from EME.
Starter Repair Kit

Cheers


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Starter motor wont stop............. Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

andyb

andyb
Gold member
Gold member
Kaptain Holister wrote:That's the right one. Looks like a really good price.
The relay from EME will be about twice the price by the time you add shipping to Oz, but it has diodes to protect the ECU from back emf. They weren't originally like that and its not totally necessary. Just a precaution.

Did you find the fault because if you have to order starter brushes the best place is from EME.
Starter Repair Kit

Cheers


G'day Kap. Nope, havent had a chance to get into it, the work/life balance is up the creek at the moment, so I thought I'd start looking for parts in the meantime......

Starter motor wont stop............. 797640


__________________________________________________
AndyB
'03 K1200GT,

'88 K100 RT
Chassis number: 0097248 ; Vehicle code: 0504; Series: K589
Model: K100RT 84 (0504 (0505) Body Type: K100RT 84 (0504)
Catalog Model: ECE; Engine: (0504); Production: 1988/9
Starter motor wont stop............. 13763011
    

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
keep at it andy

that one should do the job

cheers


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OStarter motor wont stop............. Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

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