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1Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty A whole new set of problems... Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:15 pm

Bikesmith

Bikesmith
Silver member
Silver member
Hi everyone!
    Well, I got my bike running. It's a 1985 K100rs that my wife gave me for my birthday. I spent the last three weeks getting it running. Hall sensor, fuel pump, bad wiring connections, relays, tires, switches, final drive splines. I've been all over that thing.
    So I got it running a couple days ago. The first couple of rides revealed a new batch of problems and questions:

  1. Here's the big one. It won't start when the bike is hot. The starter is turning the engine. The fuel pump is pumping. But it doesn't start. I can think of lots of things that would cause that, but most of them would also cause the bike to run badly. Before I shut it down the bike was running GREAT. Smooth solid idle, up to tons of power at high RPM, and everything in between. It seemed to run perfectly until I shut it down, and then 20 seconds later it would not start. I tried just starter, starter with a bit of throttle, a lot of throttle, some choke, full choke. Nothing. And it starts instantly when cold. The only thing I can think of is vapor lock. It is winter gas and I did get the bike pretty darn hot. Do Ks even suffer from vapor lock? What else could it be?
  2. The rear shock is leaking BADLY. I don't need any help with this issue. Just sympathy. The shock is already in the hands of UPS on its way to Works Performance. They say they'll need it for 3-4 weeks. Crying or Very sad 
  3. The engine got quite hot while I was riding. I suspect this isn't a problem. I've heard the Ks get pretty hot. And it reached a hot temperature and then just stayed there. It cooled down on long descents. I feel pretty sure that it was normal. I'm just wondering how to differentiate between normal hot and problem hot. Does the temperature light on the dash light up for too hot in addition to cold? If the engine was too hot, could that have caused issue #1?
  4. Is my battery charging? While I was trying to start the bike as described in issue #1, I noticed that over the course of a dozen attempts to start the bike the starter sounded noticeably less emphatic. Is that normal? Should a battery be able to power minutes of starting attempts without diminishment? How can I check that the battery is charging while riding? The battery light turned off while the bike was running. Is that a solid indication that everything is okay? Or could I still be having alternator/charging issues even if the light turns off?


   Other than those things, the bike ran INCREDIBLY. The engine sounded so, so smooth. Man, what a fun bike. I can't wait to take it out again (I don't suppose anyone in the Boulder, CO area has a rear shock I could borrow for a few weeks?).
   Thanks, as always, for all your help! This community is fantastic!


__________________________________________________
Jon
Mechanically competent, electrically idiotic
------------------------------------
1985 BMW K100rs
1940 Royal Enfield WD/CO
1968 Honda CL125
    

2Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:10 pm

K75cster

K75cster
Life time member
Life time member
Commiserations on the shock, One always wants a perky tight bottom yes?
I'd expect the battery to say stop doing that I'm getting tired after the 5th or 6th attempt, you then wait for it to rest and re-energise (no its doesn't recharge but seems to) What battery did you put in it, most of the 30Amphour batts are fine with it, some of the 19amp hour batts would start to complain.
Running hot? only if the fan comes on is it running problem hot, the rest is normal hot, then again the fan is designed to come on in warm weather, to assist with heat dissipation. So if it didn't come on all should be good but first make sure the fan works. Then you will know what is normal on your temp dial.
Starting issue sound like the hall effect sender, but that don't mean it is, others will chime in when they read it, but does it start after two or three hours without issue?


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

3Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:22 pm

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
@Bikesmith wrote:Hi everyone!
    Well, I got my bike running. It's a 1985 K100rs that my wife gave me for my birthday. I spent the last three weeks getting it running. Hall sensor, fuel pump, bad wiring connections, relays, tires, switches, final drive splines. I've been all over that thing.
    So I got it running a couple days ago. The first couple of rides revealed a new batch of problems and questions:

  1. Here's the big one. It won't start when the bike is hot. The starter is turning the engine. The fuel pump is pumping. But it doesn't start. I can think of lots of things that would cause that, but most of them would also cause the bike to run badly. Before I shut it down the bike was running GREAT. Smooth solid idle, up to tons of power at high RPM, and everything in between. It seemed to run perfectly until I shut it down, and then 20 seconds later it would not start. I tried just starter, starter with a bit of throttle, a lot of throttle, some choke, full choke. Nothing. And it starts instantly when cold. The only thing I can think of is vapor lock. It is winter gas and I did get the bike pretty darn hot. Do Ks even suffer from vapor lock? What else could it be?
    If the engine over heats it will keep running but if stopped it will not restart until the temp falls to within the operating range because the FICU disables the start circuit. So, one of two possibilities. Your engine is over heating or the Temp sensor is kaput and gone closed circuit. First test the resistance between pin #10 and #13 on the FICU plug. When cold should be 2.5KΩ @20 ̊C. Then test when the engine has over heated (won't restart). Should be around >200Ω. If it's zero the sensor will be dud.
    If the sensor is ok, your engine could be overheating. Valves, air leak, coolant obstruction (thermostat), fan not working. Have you removed/tested the thermostat?

  2. The rear shock is leaking BADLY. I don't need any help with this issue. Just sympathy. The shock is already in the hands of UPS on its way to Works Performance. They say they'll need it for 3-4 weeks. Crying or Very sad Bugger.
  3. The engine got quite hot while I was riding. I suspect this isn't a problem. I've heard the Ks get pretty hot. And it reached a hot temperature and then just stayed there. It cooled down on long descents. I feel pretty sure that it was normal. I'm just wondering how to differentiate between normal hot and problem hot. Does the temperature light on the dash light up for too hot in addition to cold? If the engine was too hot, could that have caused issue #1?...Yes. If the engine is actually overheating the FICU will prevent restart
    The temp warning lamp lights up when too hot. Mine has never come on except for initial ignition/engine not running.

  4. Is my battery charging? While I was trying to start the bike as described in issue #1, I noticed that over the course of a dozen attempts to start the bike the starter sounded noticeably less emphatic. Is that normal? Should a battery be able to power minutes of starting attempts without diminishment? How can I check that the battery is charging while riding? The battery light turned off while the bike was running. Is that a solid indication that everything is okay? Or could I still be having alternator/charging issues even if the light turns off? Not a good idea to keep turning the starter over too much. If your battery sounds like its getting tired put it on the charger.
    To check the alternator voltage output just measure the voltage across the battery terminals at >2000rpm. If voltage drops while riding, the charge warning lamp will light up.



   Other than those things, the bike ran INCREDIBLY. The engine sounded so, so smooth. Man, what a fun bike. I can't wait to take it out again (I don't suppose anyone in the Boulder, CO area has a rear shock I could borrow for a few weeks?).
   Thanks, as always, for all your help! This community is fantastic!


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  A whole new set of problems... Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

4Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:48 pm

Bikesmith

Bikesmith
Silver member
Silver member
From Kaptain Holister:
If the engine over heats it will keep running but if stopped it will not restart until the temp falls to within the operating range because the FICU disables the start circuit. So, one of two possibilities. Your engine is over heating or the Temp sensor is kaput and gone closed circuit. First test the resistance between pin #10 and #13 on the FICU plug. When cold should be 2.5KΩ @20 ̊C. Then test when the engine has over heated (won't restart). Should be around >200Ω. If it's zero the sensor will be dud.
If the sensor is ok, your engine could be overheating. Valves, air leak, coolant obstruction (thermostat), fan not working. Have you removed/tested the thermostat?


I haven't done anything about this issue yet. Is there a way to check the temp sensor without the bike running? With no rear shock, it'd be tricky to get the bike hot. Can I just put the sensor in hot water? Can I do the same with the thermostat? It seems that the sensor being faulty might explain why I'm not getting a temperature warning light. Am I correct in thinking that?

If the engine is actually overheating the FICU will prevent restart
The temp warning lamp lights up when too hot. Mine has never come on except for initial ignition/engine not running.


My temperature light is on when I first turn on the ignition, then goes off shortly after I start the bike. It never came on after that.

Not a good idea to keep turning the starter over too much. If your battery sounds like its getting tired put it on the charger.
To check the alternator voltage output just measure the voltage across the battery terminals at >2000rpm. If voltage drops while riding, the charge warning lamp will light up.


I know. I don't like stressing the starter. I wasn't running it continuously. Just a few seconds at a time, with 10-20 seconds break between attempts. So, checking the voltage across battery terminals: what will I expect to see if all is well, and what will I expect to see if there's a problem?

Thanks so much!


__________________________________________________
Jon
Mechanically competent, electrically idiotic
------------------------------------
1985 BMW K100rs
1940 Royal Enfield WD/CO
1968 Honda CL125
    

5Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:22 pm

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
Life time member
Hot start problem:  How long do you have to wait before she'll start?  Can you get some freeze spray?  Take the cover off and run the bike until it's hot enough to not start.  Shoot some freeze spray on the hall sensors and if it starts right away that is your problem. 

High temperature:  Is there mineral buildup in the overflow tank?  If so, I would guess that at some point someone was using tap water in the cooling system.  The proper coolant mix is 60% distilled water and 40% long life antifreeze.  I had problems with my K100 until I took the radiator and hoses off and did a thorough cleaning.  I soaked everything in white vinegar for a couple days and flushed well with the final flush of the radiator with distilled water.  Then I put it all back together and refilled with the proper mix. Don't forget to clean the bugs out of the fins.

While the radiator is out you might want to check the fan.  They are known for melting the brushes and seizing.  you may want to be proactive and replace the oem fan with this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SPAL-USA-6-5-Straight-Blade-Low-Profile-Cooling-Fan-12-Volt-Puller-PULL-/301723133219?hash=item464019a523:g:K-YAAOSwkNZUjkeG&vxp=mtr

There is a link to an easy retrofit at reply #18 on this thread:

http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,4313.0.html

With the radiator out, it only takes about an hour to modify the bracket and solder the wires to make the new one work.  You can do it while the radiator is soaking.

Rear Shock:  I suspect that Works Shocks don't like to not be used.  I bought a brick last fall that had not been used for a couple years.  Within a few miles of the first ride, it started leaking and by the time I got the bike home 2000 miles later all the shock fluid was on the rear end of the bike.  Since it was rebuilt, the bike feels better than my other bricks.  A rebuild is money well spent. 

If your battery is an AGM sealed type, it takes a little time between starts for electrons to migrate through the mats to the plates.  Constant cranking will risk welding the start relay.  Give a minute or so between start attempts.  While a 22amp hour battery will have no trouble starting a good engine, when there are problems, a 30 amp hour would be a better choice for it's reserve capacity.

As far as charging, if you put a voltmeter across the battery terminals with the engine running above 1500 rpm you should see something more than 13.8 volts.  Anything less than 12.8 volts means that the alternator isn't putting out.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS
1988 K100RS SE

Past:
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

6Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:35 pm

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
@Bikesmith wrote:From Kaptain Holister:
If the engine over heats it will keep running but if stopped it will not restart until the temp falls to within the operating range because the FICU disables the start circuit. So, one of two possibilities. Your engine is over heating or the Temp sensor is kaput and gone closed circuit. First test the resistance between pin #10 and #13 on the FICU plug. When cold should be 2.5KΩ @20 ̊C. Then test when the engine has over heated (won't restart). Should be around >200Ω. If it's zero the sensor will be dud.
If the sensor is ok, your engine could be overheating. Valves, air leak, coolant obstruction (thermostat), fan not working. Have you removed/tested the thermostat?


I haven't done anything about this issue yet. Is there a way to check the temp sensor without the bike running? With no rear shock, it'd be tricky to get the bike hot. Can I just put the sensor in hot water? Can I do the same with the thermostat? It seems that the sensor being faulty might explain why I'm not getting a temperature warning light. Am I correct in thinking that?... not sure about that. The feed for the temp warning light comes from the temperature controler in the electrical box and the controller is on a different circuit off the sensor (it has two connections plus the earth body). I'm on the road atm and away from my resourses so maybe someone else can chime in on that.
You can test the sensor in hot water but you'll only get it to 100 ̊C. Engine can get a little higher than that under pressure. I can't remember what temp it cuts the starter circuit. Anybody?? The temp sensor is a little difficult to remove anyway.
Just run the motor for 10 to 15 mins at idle with a little choke to get her up to operating temp and see where you get to from there. Switch her off and try to restart. Have a few attempts. Measure the pins on the FICU plug.
Remove the thermostat and stick it in a sausepan on the stove with a themometer and see what temp it opens at. The manual will have the service specs for that. I can't remember and I'm on the road atm.


If the engine is actually overheating the FICU will prevent restart
The temp warning lamp lights up when too hot. Mine has never come on except for initial ignition/engine not running.


My temperature light is on when I first turn on the ignition, then goes off shortly after I start the bike. It never came on after that.
That's how it works A whole new set of problems... 112350


Not a good idea to keep turning the starter over too much. If your battery sounds like its getting tired put it on the charger.
To check the alternator voltage output just measure the voltage across the battery terminals at >2000rpm. If voltage drops while riding, the charge warning lamp will light up.


I know. I don't like stressing the starter. I wasn't running it continuously. Just a few seconds at a time, with 10-20 seconds break between attempts. So, checking the voltage across battery terminals: what will I expect to see if all is well, and what will I expect to see if there's a problem?
13.6V to 14.4V. Typically around 14.0V. Things that will affect the alternator output voltage will be the voltage regulator. Remove from the back of the alternator, check the length of the brushes (refer to manual for service specs), give it a clean, replace. Try cleaning the alternator connector. Good earth connections are needed for the charge to get to the battery terminals. If voltage is sustantially lower the rectifier diodes are probably gone.


Thanks so much!


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  A whole new set of problems... Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

7Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:11 pm

RicK G

RicK G
admin
admin
With regards to overheating the fan comes on at 103°C the light comes on at 111°C and the no start activates at 113°C. It is possible that the engine is overheating but not getting to the light coming on stage but when you stop it the heat in the cylinder head is enough to send the temp past the 113°C mark and prevent starting. To check this stop the engine then immediately try to restart before the heat can build up and if it starts do it again but wait 30 seconds and see if it starts, if it doesn't start then that is the problem. The temp should stay around the 1/3 in the gauge and up to the 1/2 on a hot day the fan on my K1100 cuts in at around the 3/4 mark and I have never had the light come on so I dont know about that.
Did you replace the Hall sensors or just test them but usually they will just stop the engine when they get hot and not wait for the restart.
I would suspect the radiator being the problem so as 0.75 said a good clean inside and out probably would help. I spray a degreaser into the fins and let it soak for a while then hose it clean, you will be very supprised at jusy how many decaying bugs come out. Then use compressed air and maybe even get a piece of high tensile wire like 0.8mm mig wire to get into the fins to get some of the grains of sand and well cooked bugs out.
A leaking fork seak will send oil back into the radiator and then it collects dust like a well oiled air filter.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

8Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:27 pm

Bikesmith

Bikesmith
Silver member
Silver member
Thanks, guys! Man, you people are seriously a wealth of info. I couldn't manage all of this without you.

  Here's my plan during the 3-4 weeks I'm waiting for my shock Crying or Very sad : First, I'm going to drain the cooling system and remove the radiator. I'll check for deposits like point-seven-five suggests. If needed, I'll do that vinegar flush. While I have the radiator out I'll check the fan. I've been able to confirm with it in place that it spins. Can I just hook it straight to the battery to confirm that it's working?
  Also, while I have the radiator out, I'll check the thermostat. The Clymer manual has a procedure for that.
  I figure that even if the cooling system is fine, I might as well check everything, give it fresh fluid, and learn a new part of my bike.
  Once I get the cooling system back together and filled, I'll check the temperature sensor output while cold, then run the bike for a few minutes to bring it up to temp. While doing so, I can check if the alternator is giving me a charge. I suspect that it's fine since I'm not getting a battery light. I bet the battery just needs a charge; While I've been trying to get the bike running, there's been a lot of starter cranking and very little riding/charging. I'll also look into getting a 30 amp hour battery if I don't already have one.
   Then! Once the bike is hot I'll check the temp sensor output again. I kind of suspect I have some issue in that area. Whether it's correct or not, the bike thinks it's too hot to start, right? If the temperature is fine, the why does the FICU think there's a problem? Probably temp sensor, right? If the temperature actually is too hot, then why is my temperature light not coming on? Has to be either the sensor or the temperature switching unit, right? So something's gotta be wrong in that area. Though, like Rick G said, it could be that it's hitting the no-restart temp after I shut the bike down. We'll see. Once I know that the cooling system is working, it should easier to track down the fault (if there is one).
  Does this all sound like a good plan? Hopefully I can have everything working by the time my rebuilt shock arrives.


__________________________________________________
Jon
Mechanically competent, electrically idiotic
------------------------------------
1985 BMW K100rs
1940 Royal Enfield WD/CO
1968 Honda CL125
    

9Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:20 pm

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
Life time member
You can test the fan out of the bike by connecting it to the battery.  A better test would be to have it plugged into the harness and then ground the terminal on the temperature control relay that goes to the temperature sender.  I believe the correct pin is the one with the violet/green wire on it. 

If you can afford it, replacing the old fan may be a good move at this time.  These fans are notorious for failing.  One of the failure modes is where the blades slide forward on the shaft and wear a hole in the radiator core.  The Spal fan is a common replacement and is much better quality than the original Bosch fan.  If you follow the directions in the post I referenced it is a pretty straightforward job. 

BTW, normal operating temperature is around 185 to 195 F.  On a hot day it can go as high as 210 to 215 without the fan going on.  The engineers want them to run hot, that's how they are designed.  Running cool is worse for them than hot.  It's something you get used to, like running at 4000 rpm and up.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS
1988 K100RS SE

Past:
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

10Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:53 am

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
whilst you have the radiator out ,,,,the temp sensor is right in front of you

I would remove that clip connector and clean the terminals regardless ......then undo the sensor from the water stub and clean the threads ...then reinstall it with a new brass or copper washer ....dissimilar metals tend to corrode up ...especially at the threads .
before doing this measure the under seat computer terminals )pin 10 and pin 13 ) with a good ohms meter ...your looking for about  2 to 3000 ohms

after the work on the stub and sensor recheck your work  to confirm any difference ....a higher resistance than what is expected will make the bike run rich ....and too low will lean it out ....even give a false hot reading ?/...check any cables for shorting to frame (under bolts -washers etc ) also .
don't forget that sensor is double ended device ...there are two terminals and a ground that are the important things ...each terminal has its own sensor to ground .

good luck we have seen many issues right there .


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OA whole new set of problems... Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

11Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:56 pm

Bikesmith

Bikesmith
Silver member
Silver member
One more quick question:
   I want to check if I have a 30 amp hours, but I actually can't figure out whether I do or not. I have this battery (https://www.batteriesplus.com/productdetails/cyl10020 ) Is it 30 amp hours? Is it an adequate battery?

  Also, Charlie99, thanks for the heads-up about doing a physical check of the temp sensor while it's accessible. I'll definitely do that.


__________________________________________________
Jon
Mechanically competent, electrically idiotic
------------------------------------
1985 BMW K100rs
1940 Royal Enfield WD/CO
1968 Honda CL125
    

12Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:02 pm

Motorbike Mike

Motorbike Mike
Life time member
Life time member
Thanks fella's!!
I'm reading through this thread and get to Charlie's last post then begin to think  "Did I put my temp sensor back in with PTFE tape?" which in this case isn't the done thing.
Shit, I'd better check. My minimalist Brick allowed me to get on with a 19mm deep socket and 2 extensions.
I hadn't used thread tape and all is well.

Ooooh you guys! A whole new set of problems... 167893

A whole new set of problems... Cimg3239

    

13Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:37 pm

Inge K.

Inge K.
VIP
VIP
@Motorbike Mike wrote:I hadn't used thread tape and all is well.

Ooooh you guys! A whole new set of problems... 167893

Doesn't matter on a Motronic equipped model, where the temp sensor isn't connected to ground.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

14Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:39 pm

Motorbike Mike

Motorbike Mike
Life time member
Life time member
Now you tell me. 
Now then, where's that PTFE tape.

    

15Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:46 pm

Bikesmith

Bikesmith
Silver member
Silver member
Hey guys,
   I just tested the temp sensor at the FICU plug at room temperature. I got a consistent reading of 1.2K. The temperature/resistance graph on this page (http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/K100/download/bike-wont-start1.htm ) says that that resistance corresponds to a temperature of about 45C. It's definitely not that warm in here. The bike is fully cool, hasn't run in two days. I checked it using ground at the FICU plug and at a couple other spots. Same reading across the board.
   Is that a definitive indication of a faulty temp sensor? Could a bad connection give that reading? It seems to me that a bad connection would be reading more resistance than standard, not less. But, as I've mentioned, I'm not exactly a rocket surgeon when it comes to electricity.


__________________________________________________
Jon
Mechanically competent, electrically idiotic
------------------------------------
1985 BMW K100rs
1940 Royal Enfield WD/CO
1968 Honda CL125
    

16Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:21 pm

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
Providing you've probed the correct pins (see diagram below), there's the problem. That would lean the fuel mix at startup and also give a super low ohms value to the FICU when hot so it thinks its overheated.

This is not a connectivity issue. The sensor itself is defect. When you get the new one test it with your meter before you install it. They have been known to be dud out-of-the-box. Measure between the threaded body and each of the two top contacts.

A whole new set of problems... Test-FI%201


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  A whole new set of problems... Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

17Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:58 pm

Bikesmith

Bikesmith
Silver member
Silver member
Update!
   So I ordered a new temp sensor. When it arrived, I tested it right out of the box, as Kaptain Holister recommended. It was reading 1.2K at room temp, exactly the same as the old one. Suspicious! So I bought a new multimeter. Both temp sensors registered 2.5K at room temp. D'oh! Well, I guess I have a spare temp sensor now.
   Finding out that the temp sensor was good lead me to believe that I had an actual overheating problem, so I pulled the radiator. It was full of bugs and there were a few bent vanes. But nothing that struck me as out of the ordinary, not really knowing what ordinary is. I cleaned the bugs out, straightened all bent vanes, and replaced the fan with a Spal. The old fan was working fine, but I decided to replace it just to get everything as good as possible.
   The thermostat tested a little bit hotter than the Clymer book said it should, but in a separate thread (Thermostat Question) you guys said it was fine.
   The coolant that came out was clean and clear of debris. There were no mineral deposits. So I put everything back together, flushed it three times with distilled water, then filled it with low silicate coolant (as recommended by Clymer).
   I fired the bike up and let it run for a while. Every few minutes I would shut it down, check the resistance from the temp sensor at the FICU, and then try to start it up again. Initial resistance reading (cold) was 2.5K, then .93K, then .56K, then .33K. Seems normal, right? The bike started instantly each time.
   It really seems like everything is working fine. The fan never came on, but I wouldn't expect it to. I tried to confirm that the pump was working. I'm not totally sure about it, but I think it's working. The radiator hoses all got hot, and there was a surge of fluid at the filler neck. Also, the oil pressure idiot light turned off as soon as the bike started. As I understand it (though I'm open to correction), it's the same pump, so if I'm getting oil pressure I'm getting coolant pressure, too. It seems like the pump is fine. Do you agree? Is that worth more investigation?
   So, I'm left with inconclusive results. Everything seems to be working fine, but I never actually found a problem to fix. I kind of just rebuilt the cooling system, confirming that everything was fine along the way.
   Here's a question I never asked about the hot start issue: Is it possible that all systems were working properly, and I actually just got the bike hot enough that it wanted to cool down for a few minutes before starting again? Or is getting the bike that hot always a sign of a problem? If there was a problem, is it possible I fixed it along the way without noticing? Is there anything I'm not thinking of?

   Next issue: The battery. As a couple of you suggested, I checked voltage at the battery while the bike was running. At 2000 RPM, I'm getting about 13.3 volts across the terminals, which seems to be lower than you've said I should see. I was mostly seeing the same voltage when I revved even higher, except for one time when the voltage dropped to about 12.5 (fluctuating) at 3000 RPM. That time, though, could have been just because of my inability to hold the meter leads steady. Mostly it was staying at right about 13.3 no matter how high I revved. But overall, it seems low. Is it problematically low? If so, what's my next step for addressing that?

   Bonus New Issue! When I pulled off the engine spoiler cover, I discovered I've got some pretty significant oil leakage. Oh, boy! It seems to be pretty evenly coating the entire bottom of the engine. I know the trick of washing the oil off, then running the bike and watching for where it comes out. I'm not going to be able to get the bike to a place where I can wash it any time soon, though. If possible, I'd like to deal with this while the bike is laid up waiting for its rebuilt shock to arrive.
   So are there any common leak points I can check? The next item on my service list is greasing the transmission splines, so I'll check the rear main seal at that time (I really hope it isn't that). Is oil pan gasket a likely culprit? That's the only thing I can think of that would give such an even layer all over the bottom of the engine.
A whole new set of problems... Oil
You know, looking at the photo, it kind of looks like it might just be the drain plug not sealing right. You think? Also, I just checked the inside of the cover and it's pretty clean actually. Just a few drips right under the drain plug. Hey, maybe I solved this problem while typing it out!

  Wow! That was more of a wall of text than I intended. Thanks for reading it and thanks in advance for all your help.
   -Jon


__________________________________________________
Jon
Mechanically competent, electrically idiotic
------------------------------------
1985 BMW K100rs
1940 Royal Enfield WD/CO
1968 Honda CL125
    

18Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:30 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Mmmmmm.....


If you can, use tissue as best you can to clean around the sump plug and the circular cover that's under the oil filter.

Get them clean as you can and then run the bike and see what happens. Maybe leave it for 24 hours. In both these locations the oil is not under pressure, you should not get a drip off either of these joints but if you do an oil change will clear it because you will be fitting a new O ring on the circular cover and a new crush washer on the sump nut......If you are 100% confident on the O ruing and sump nut washer then next paragraph MAY kick in.

Now, back to your post about the oil and the water pump being the one and same thing and if oil pressure is there water pressure is also there. Not quite.....yes its a single shaft driving both, The cover at the front of the engine is your way in. Not the T shape, its the 'round' one. Behind the cover is the water pump impeller which is bolted on to the end of this shaft. Its not unknown, especially on the early Ks, for this impeller to degrade to the point of being useless, or to fall off, or the bolt to corrode if no coolant is put in if its been sitting years.....You will still get good oil pressure but your coolant circulation will be severely compromised.

The shaft wears, the seals fail and this is the third place you can end with oil under the engine even though all appears to be working ok. There is a little weep hole as you go behind the water pump and it can leak oil or coolant. Its usually the tell tale sign. That's why I say check the other two first as they are routine.

While you are there check the hole under the clutch/bell housing a the back of engine, follow the engine number around to the bottom of the engine and its just rearward of the joint. Please tell us its dry.......

There is a good thread on doing the water/oil pump but first go check out those other two and come back to us.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 40,490 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

19Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:44 pm

Bikesmith

Bikesmith
Silver member
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Here's the more complete oil leak situation:
A whole new set of problems... Oil1
The pump housing looks relatively dry. There isn't anything coming out from under the cover.

A whole new set of problems... Oil2
Here's where the trouble starts. The whole bottom half of the engine block seems coated. Is that hole at the bottom the drain hole you mentioned? If yes, it's oily there, but it doesn't seem to be a source. it's as oily on the front of that part as it is at the opening.

A whole new set of problems... Oil3

A whole new set of problems... Oil4
The filter cover doesn't appear to be a source. It's actually one of the less oily parts under the bike.

A whole new set of problems... Oil5
The drain plug is oilier than other parts. Maybe just because it's a low point?

A whole new set of problems... Oil6
The bell housing. Lots of oil on it, but very little at the front. Just oil being blown back from further forward?

A whole new set of problems... Oil7
The drain hole you mentioned in the bell housing? Oily, for sure, but it doesn't look to me like a source. It's no oilier at the hole than it is just in front of it.

A whole new set of problems... Oil8
There's definitely a leak from under the valve cover. A new gasket should take care of that, right?

A whole new set of problems... Oil9
The inside of the spoiler cover. A little oily, but not terrible. Seems like those drip spots might be under the drain plug. Overall, though, it seems to me like it's coming out at the front of the block and being blown over the rest of the engine. Actually, could this just be a bad oil pan gasket leaking at the front and then blowing back over everything else?

  I think realistically I'll just have to wait until I get my shock back and I can bring the bike somewhere I can wash it to really see where the leak is.

  Back to the overheating issue, That bad water pump impeller sounds like it could be my culprit. Can that fail in such a way that I'd get some cooling action, just not enough? If I open up that cover (the one in the first photo of this post, right?) what should I be looking for?


__________________________________________________
Jon
Mechanically competent, electrically idiotic
------------------------------------
1985 BMW K100rs
1940 Royal Enfield WD/CO
1968 Honda CL125
    

20Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:15 pm

Holister

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@Bikesmith wrote:.....
Every few minutes I would shut it down, check the resistance from the temp sensor at the FICU, and then try to start it up again. Initial resistance reading (cold) was 2.5K, then .93K, then .56K, then .33K. Seems normal, right? The bike started instantly each time.
   It really seems like everything is working fine. The fan never came on, but I wouldn't expect it to.

......
The readings look good. Did you put the new one in or put back the old sensor?
If you leave your enginge idling for about 10 to 15 mins while stationary the fan should come on. If it doesn't, I'd check out the Temperature Controler (the fan's been replaced, the sensor checks out).
If your engine IS overheating, that could be difficult to track down.... so many possibilities. Look to valve clearances, air leaks etc. What do your spark plugs look like?

Cheers


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  A whole new set of problems... Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

21Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:26 pm

Bikesmith

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Kaptain Holister wrote:The readings look good. Did you put the new one in or put back the old sensor?
If you leave your enginge idling for about 10 to 15 mins while stationary the fan should come on. If it doesn't, I'd check out the Temperature Controler (the fan's been replaced, the sensor checks out).
If your engine IS overheating, that could be difficult to track down.... so many possibilities. Look to valve clearances, air leaks etc. What do your spark plugs look like?

Cheers
   I left the old sensor in. Since it was reading perfect, there didn't seem to be any reason to pull it. I removed the connector and cleaned the contacts. Definitely seems like there's no problem there. I was also using an infrared thermometer on the exterior of the engine at various points and getting readings 15-20 degrees lower than what the temp sensor said, which seems consistent.
   I'll try another idle test and leave it running long enough to get really hot, but do you think there's any reason to suspect the temp controller switch? Or is that just a test to be thorough? It is turning off the temperature idiot light as soon as the bike is running, which seems to suggest that it's functional.
  Olaf suggested checking the impeller on the water pump. Is that something where I can pull that cover, check quickly whether it's good or not, then just put the cover back on (if good)? Or is it one of those situations where if I'm going to pull the cover I better have a rebuild kit in hand?
  So far, I've been thinking of this situation as either a faulty measurement of temperature or a failure of the cooling sytem. I haven't even begun to investigate causes of the engine actually running hot. The plugs are fine, not burned. I haven't checked valve clearances yet. The previous owner is a friend of a friend, and is vouched for by my friend to be a very competent mechanic. Everything I've seen so far backs that up, so overall I've been checking everything that would deteriorate from the bike sitting for over a year, rather than questioning his adjustments. But I will check valve clearances. What air leak would cause hot running?

  Any thoughts about the alternator situation? My gut feeling is that my battery is giving out. It strikes me as weak even after being freshly charged. the best I can get in a static test is just a touch over 12 volts. If the battery is going, would that give me a low voltage reading at 2000rpm?

   Thanks!
   -Jon


__________________________________________________
Jon
Mechanically competent, electrically idiotic
------------------------------------
1985 BMW K100rs
1940 Royal Enfield WD/CO
1968 Honda CL125
    

22Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:40 pm

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
Life time member
Judging from the photos, it looks like the oil is leaking between the lower crankcase and the oil pan.

The oil pan does not have a gasket.  The joint with the lower crankcase is sealed with Permatex.  It is probable that at some point someone went in there and didn't seal it properly.  Drop the pan and clean it well and then seal the joint and do an oil change.  Dust the bottom of the engine with spray on talcum powder and run the engine.  If the leak is still there it will be easy to spot in the white powder.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS
1988 K100RS SE

Past:
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

23Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:40 am

RicK G

RicK G
admin
admin
The hole where the oil is coming from is the vent for the air space between the water and oil pumps, the oil pump seal is leaking. There are heaps and heaps of posts and threads about oil pump fixes so it looks like you have lots of reading ahead of you.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

24Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:21 am

Holister

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Bikesmith - #21 wrote: I left the old sensor in. Since it was reading perfect, there didn't seem to be any reason to pull it. I removed the connector and cleaned the contacts.
No problems with that but probably better to install the new one and keep the old one as a spare. Better and more reliable service life in the short term.
@Bikesmith wrote:Post #17
Next issue: The battery. As a couple of you suggested, I checked voltage at the battery while the bike was running. At 2000 RPM, I'm getting about 13.3 volts across the terminals, which seems to be lower than you've said I should see. I was mostly seeing the same voltage when I revved even higher, except for one time when the voltage dropped to about 12.5 (fluctuating) at 3000 RPM. That time, though, could have been just because of my inability to hold the meter leads steady. Mostly it was staying at right about 13.3 no matter how high I revved. But overall, it seems low. Is it problematically low? If so, what's my next step for addressing that?
Post #21
Any thoughts about the alternator situation? My gut feeling is that my battery is giving out. It strikes me as weak even after being freshly charged. the best I can get in a static test is just a touch over 12 volts. If the battery is going, would that give me a low voltage reading at 2000rpm?
The battery begins charging at 13.6V.... So Yes, 13.3V is problematic.

First check your alternator warning light. If its off when it should be on and on when it should be off, then you have a problem. Although a properly functioning warning light does not necessarily mean the alternator is good.

Check/clean all your earth connections particularly the GB earth on the left.

Make sure the alternator connector is clean and secure.
DO NOT RUN THE ENGINE WITH THE ALTERNATOR DISCONNECTED


But sounds like the voltage regulator has gone. It unscrews from the rear of the alt. You need to take out the battery first to get to it. Check the brushes for length. Service specs are in the manual. If ok give the contacts a clean and try it again. If its dud you can buy another here EME K100 Voltage Regulator


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  A whole new set of problems... Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

25Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:44 am

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
just going back wards a bit
that temp sensor

almost sounds to me like  the two conductors going to the temp sensor ...are shorted somewhere
it would be interesting to disconnect the temp sensor  and measure between the temperature relay and pin 10  on the underseat ficu   or even just do that measurement between those conductors .

could the cable going to the sensor be damaged somewhere ?

as we know the return path is via the chassis - earth

yes it will run but might run lean when hot ...or fail to start when warm- operating temps ?


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OA whole new set of problems... Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

26Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Bikesmith

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Silver member
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Regarding the overheating:
   The readings I'm getting at the FICU connector seem just right. I think the temperature sensing system is fine. Once I started thinking about what might be causing the engine to run hot, it hit me: After I installed a new hall sensor, I didn't set the ignition timing. I put in the sensor, the bike started and ran, so I forgot about the adjustment. I'm planning on spending all of tomorrow working on the bike. Ignition timing is first on the list. I bet I have it too advanced. I'll report back after doing that adjustment.

A couple questions about the battery/alternator issue:
   First, The Clymer manual says that at 2000rpm, any reading between 13 and 14 volts is fine. Is that wrong? Does it definitely need to be at least 13.6?
   Second, my battery seems only borderline. Fresh off the charger, it's putting out only 12.1 volts. Could that be the only problem? Could a bad(ish) battery explain the low charging voltage?
  
   -Jon


__________________________________________________
Jon
Mechanically competent, electrically idiotic
------------------------------------
1985 BMW K100rs
1940 Royal Enfield WD/CO
1968 Honda CL125
    

27Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:42 pm

Beamer_Bill

Beamer_Bill
active member
active member
healthy, properly charged battery should be 13.2 Volts.  12.1 is not good and probably won't have much capacity and likely not hold a charge for more than a day or 2.

    

28Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:20 pm

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
@Bikesmith wrote:.........

A couple questions about the battery/alternator issue:
   First, The Clymer manual says that at 2000rpm, any reading between 13 and 14 volts is fine. Is that wrong? Does it definitely need to be at least 13.6? Yes.   You'll see 13-14V across the interweb on various sites but its not correct and I'm surprised to see that in the Clymers manual. For a standard automotive battery/charging system like we have on our Ks, the alternator output has to be 13.6V to 14.4V. Below that and the battery will begin to discharge as it's used for starting etc. Once it cycles down to empty the battery plates will be damaged and the bat will never be the same again. Over 14.4V and the battery begins to out gas hydrogen. That will eventually lead to a damaged battery but is also potentially dangerous. At 14.6V the electrolyte will begin to boil. Around 14.0V is the norm. My alternator is consistently on 13.9V at 2k rpm. My static battery charge (after a good rest) is always 12.9V. I never need to use a charger to top up but I ride most days. I have an AGM battery
   Second, my battery seems only borderline. Fresh off the charger, it's putting out only 12.1 volts. Could that be the only problem? Could a bad(ish) battery explain the low charging voltage? No.  The exact opposte. The low charging voltage from the alternator explains the bad battery. 12.1V is not "badish"... it's practically dead. A 12V (nominal) battery is considered empty at 75% charge which is 12.45V. Below that the battery begins to sulphinate leading to rapid degradation. At 12.1 your battery has 25% charge and is damaged. That's why it won't hold a charge. If you use the battery in this state to crank the motor you run a good risk of frying your starter relay. Very common.
Sounds like the votage regulator is kaput which has led to a damaged battery. The VR is reasonably cheap. I posted a link in my previous post. Replace the battery with something like a 25Ah AGM type for trouble free electrics. There are quite a few recent posts on the forum about battery selection.

  
   -Jon



Last edited by Kaptain Holister on Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:25 pm; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  A whole new set of problems... Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

29Back to top Go down   A whole new set of problems... Empty Re: A whole new set of problems... Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:01 pm

Bikesmith

Bikesmith
Silver member
Silver member
Wow! That's super helpful!


  Sounds like a clear course of action on the battery issue. New VR and new battery. Fortunately, not too expensive.

  -Jon


__________________________________________________
Jon
Mechanically competent, electrically idiotic
------------------------------------
1985 BMW K100rs
1940 Royal Enfield WD/CO
1968 Honda CL125
    

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