RicK G wrote:Gees guys an over reaction to an over reaction to a post that was a bit of a mess because it didn't copy paste well. Take a deep breath have a joint or a beer and relax and put it behind you. It isn't worth the oxygen or photons used.

I agree.
I'm sorry if I am to blame for this situation.
Sometimes we become passionate about a topic and let emotions take over.
I stand by my posts.
Who knows, maybe Motorworks advice/information needs to be updated.
After all, this forum is about learning and respecting people's opinions.
Woodcutter, I think people took offence to your comment about my post been a joke.
The instructions to soak in oil for two hours, was that written by them or the oil seal manufacturers?
I know who's word I believe....and it's not Motorworks...
I suggest people have a read of the website I mentioned. How wrong can companies like Victorreinz and KSF be?
anyway, please pass the joint....

Ta

As a moderator on this here friendly, funny, advice-filled forum I suggest a good thrash of the throttle is what's required to ease tensions. In fact, that's what's currently got me occupied.

One thing I've always (well, almost always, but for those seldom few who are long gone from here) appreciated about this particular forum, as compared to most, it's stocked mainly with growed-ups who don't have to display their ego. Thanks for at least attempting to keep it civil, gents.

Two Wheels Better wrote:As a moderator on this here friendly, funny, advice-filled forum I suggest a good thrash of the throttle is what's required to ease tensions. In fact, that's what's currently got me occupied.

One thing I've always (well, almost always, but for those seldom few who are long gone from here) appreciated about this particular forum, as compared to most, it's stocked mainly with growed-ups who don't have to display their ego. Thanks for at least attempting to keep it civil, gents.

here here , there there , well said daz  i was trying hard not to let my collection of profanities  emerge from the keyboard, looks like you and nigel had a good thrash on the highways and bi-ways  that surround sydney i assume you are the distinguished gent on the left [ correct me if im wrong ] i think ill refrain from entering into posts henceforth , prefer to just sift through the additions absorb what i feel is necessary and delete the rest in the scrap bin hope you have a safe and enjoyable trip to rellies @ clunes  and onto the moto-gp at PI

Jeeez!!!!!, seems that it's not only the seals that are weeping!! Seems this is not much different from just about every other Forum that I've ever dipped into or subscribed to, someone (or two or three) grabs the wrong end of the stick, or misreads a typo, or gets all damn PC about something, or gets a different view from their lofty ivory tower . Maybe it's in the nature of keyboard communication? Hang in there guys, the bad smell will soon blow away!

Hang in there indeed, Kando.

One of the great things about this forum is that arguments are pretty rare, though polite differences of opinion do happen.

At the risk of upsetting some (because of the origin of the next statement), many here exemplify "a soft answer turns away wrath."

Bill

Ha-ha Bill! Just as well that you didn't also post the second line!

   One thing that could should be done in every single forum there is, is to do away with the utterly stupid ''star'' system, where some old duffer who's been posting both gems of technical wisdom and drivel of inconsequential matters for the past goodness knows how long is accorded the term ''Senior Member'' or some such accolade and has his avatar followed by a mass of symbols. Ye gods, it's like a school playground 60 years ago. In my 55 years of aircraft engineering I've met/worked with lots of guys with real broad based knowledge backed up with hands on practical experience, and also far too many old hands who've read the manual and the procedure  but in such a varied discipline, never tackled some particular task. I guess motorcycles are no different .

   Anyway without going off topic in my next parts order I'm going to get a couple of seals, dig out a spare engine core, clutch carrier and any other bits required and test out this seal destroying theory. I'll be back with the results, but in the meantime my engine stays together, if it weeps or even bawls its eyes out, I'll deal with it then.

woodcutter wrote:

Point-Seven-five wrote:42mm??? Are we talking about the rear main seal?  The Max BMW parts fiche lists that seal as TEFLON 50x80x10.

When I installed mine I just lubed it up with a thin wipe of engine oil and slipped the clutch hub into it.  8000 miles later it is still working fine.

exactly what i did to my seal ,was your's the one from motorworks  or a genuine one from MAX BMW

No parts sources in my neighborhood so I got mine from a local bearing supply house.  From what I have read here, it appears it was not a teflon seal.

woodcutter wrote:

mike d wrote:There is a major Classic bike show in Stafford (UK) this weekend. The guys from Motorworks will be there, so I will have a chat about the teflon seal advice that you have been given. 

Mike

hi mike when you talk to the guys from motorworks  this weekend can you ask them if their rear main seals are teflon lip or viton lip ones  as i've been told 2 versions so far from my correspondence with them and quiz them on the correct method of installation im curious to know how they would install one  to many versions on the forum  cheers and best regards

Mine was from motobins. Soaked it in oil for a while, installed it. All good.

Kando wrote:Ha-ha Bill! Just as well that you didn't also post the second line!

   One thing that could should be done in every single forum there is, is to do away with the utterly stupid ''star'' system, where some old duffer who's been posting both gems of technical wisdom and drivel of inconsequential matters for the past goodness knows how long is accorded the term ''Senior Member'' or some such accolade and has his avatar followed by a mass of symbols. Ye gods, it's like a school playground 60 years ago. In my 55 years of aircraft engineering I've met/worked with lots of guys with real broad based knowledge backed up with hands on practical experience, and also far too many old hands who've read the manual and the procedure  but in such a varied discipline, never tackled some particular task. I guess motorcycles are no different .

   Anyway without going off topic in my next parts order I'm going to get a couple of seals, dig out a spare engine core, clutch carrier and any other bits required and test out this seal destroying theory. I'll be back with the results, but in the meantime my engine stays together, if it weeps or even bawls its eyes out, I'll deal with it then.

hi kando i've had enough of this  "we did" , "you should"  scenario i thought about while the motor / gearbox assembly is on the bench to strip it back to the  crankcase or at least remove the clutch and clutch carrier / basket  and visually see the seal in question  its only spanner time and a 19mm x 4mm O-ring which i have 3 of spare and photograph it and put up post of my findings , then the otherside of me says i did the job properly and i should let sleeping dogs lie . I would be keen to hear the results of your proposed seal destroying theory, and im of the same frame of mind " if it weeps or bawls its eyes out, deal with it then . Maybe someone  local [UK] should approach motorworks and get them to revise the listing for the seal ans state " tis is a teflon seal and it should be installed according to the following instructions - - - - - - - - ] cause i also got a seal from moto -bins and they stipulate that it must be soaked for 2 hrs in oil feel free to check it out , and was told by the staff at motorworks to lube up the seal in oil and install it as i did and your self  well hope you took no offence at my posting re weeping main seal unfortunately for some i am straight forward in my approach and don't mince my words  hope your seal stays high and dry and give many miles of trouble free riding                  steve

Rockman wrote:

woodcutter wrote:

mike d wrote:There is a major Classic bike show in Stafford (UK) this weekend. The guys from Motorworks will be there, so I will have a chat about the teflon seal advice that you have been given. 

Mike

hi mike when you talk to the guys from motorworks  this weekend can you ask them if their rear main seals are teflon lip or viton lip ones  as i've been told 2 versions so far from my correspondence with them and quiz them on the correct method of installation im curious to know how they would install one  to many versions on the forum  cheers and best regards

Mine was from motorworks. Soaked it in oil for a while, installed it. All good.

hey rockman i did the same as per motorworks instructions , so how many klms have you done on your  seal so far ?? i looked at the attachment gabriel posted and yes they use the white plastic ring to install the new seal onto a shaft and use an expensive $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ seal driver  to install the seal all the way home into the housing but on the k bikes it is im possible to do it that way as you have to install the seal first then introduce the clutch basket into the seal so what they were saying to use your finger to expand the seal lip to facilitate easier installation of the shaft of the clutch basket holds some water  anyway will see what evolves with time cheers

mike d wrote:

woodcutter wrote:

mike d wrote:There is a major Classic bike show in Stafford (UK) this weekend. The guys from Motorworks will be there, so I will have a chat about the teflon seal advice that you have been given. 

Mike

hi mike when you talk to the guys from motorworks  this weekend can you ask them if their rear main seals are teflon lip or viton lip ones  as i've been told 2 versions so far from my correspondence with them and quiz them on the correct method of installation im curious to know how they would install one  to many versions on the forum  cheers and best regards

It's on my list of things to do/see. Just arranged to meet a friend at the Motorworks stand so will ask then.

Mike

hi mike hope you had pleasant weather at the bike show , curious to know the outcome of the meeting with the guys from motorworks  re the k rear main seal cheers  steve

Well, I did get to the show, and meet up with Nord from Motorworks. He said that the seals (speaking specifically about the K rear main seals) in stock are t he later Teflon lipped version and come supplied with a protector, which can be used to preform the seal.

Before going, I hadn't seen the posts about what was said on theirs and the Motobins websites, about soaking the seal for 2 hours, otherwise I would have raised this as well.

As has been said, some of the information on oiling the seals (Viton or Teflon) has been around a while, in fact an old Haynes manual I have says it, but then that would have been before the later Teflon seals were introduced.

I run the BMW Club UK tool hire facility, and quite some time ago, changed my notes that accompany the rear main seal tools (primarily airhead boxer) from needing to be oiled, to no oil (or a smidgen on the periphery to aid pressing it into the crankcase. For the K series, having seen the Technical Bulletin years ago about the change in depth (due to the later seal type, I had the insertion drifts modified accordingly.

Mike

What I will do is email Nord at Motorworks and suggest they update their notes on bathing the seal in oil for x number of hours, and attach the Glaiser.es link to the PDF supplied on this forum, and see if they have any comment to make.

Mike

Glad to hear that you're still here woodcutter(oops! after posting this I go to New Posts and see that you're banned- tough), no apologies needed mate, I've got no problem for me with your posts! I've done exactly the same as you and anyway in my very first post - whatever that number was- in this thread I only asked for opinions , not advice, I make my own advice determined from what I read, see and hear, I don't have any problem accepting responsibility for anything that I do I'm old enough to carry my own can!
  Some of my reading on this seal issue might be of interest to others........ 

http://www.skf.com/group/products/seals/industrial-seals/power-transmission-seals/radial-shaft-seals/seal-installation-heavy-industrial-applications/ptfe-seals/index.html

  reading through 'installation procedure fig3 represents the situation of 'our' seal I do have a bit of a problem understanding how this thread has run though when,

  1/ here we have a seal which is pretty much the same layout as all lip seals, in that the lip faces the source of whatever it is designed to contain and is presented with a retainer to hold it thus until fitting.
  2/ when the seal is inserted into it's housing there is nothing opposing the lip to 'turn the lip inside out' nothing contacts it at all- - until
  3/ when the clutch carrier is slid onto the splines and the shoulder passes through the seal,  if someone is so ham-handed that they cannot gently push the shoulder through the seal but instead 'punch it out', then they really ought not to maintaining an engine but turn to some sort of macho physical labour instead.
  4/ whatever the seal is made from, even as I facetiously put it 'fairy feathers', it is still going to work in an oil mist environment, so oil will not instantly destroy the seal

  Your post #59 mike d seems like the right way to go regarding the suppliers who are probably more conscious these days of 'product liability ' issues.

Kando wrote:Glad to hear that you're still here woodcutter(oops! after posting this I go to New Posts and see that you're banned- tough), no apologies needed mate, I've got no problem for me with your posts! I've done exactly the same as you and anyway in my very first post - whatever that number was- in this thread I only asked for opinions , not advice, I make my own advice determined from what I read, see and hear, I don't have any problem accepting responsibility for anything that I do I'm old enough to carry my own can!
  Some of my reading on this seal issue might be of interest to others........ 

http://www.skf.com/group/products/seals/industrial-seals/power-transmission-seals/radial-shaft-seals/seal-installation-heavy-industrial-applications/ptfe-seals/index.html

  reading through 'installation procedure fig3 represents the situation of 'our' seal I do have a bit of a problem understanding how this thread has run though when,

  1/ here we have a seal which is pretty much the same layout as all lip seals, in that the lip faces the source of whatever it is designed to contain and is presented with a retainer to hold it thus until fitting.
  2/ when the seal is inserted into it's housing there is nothing opposing the lip to 'turn the lip inside out' nothing contacts it at all- - until
  3/ when the clutch carrier is slid onto the splines and the shoulder passes through the seal,  if someone is so ham-handed that they cannot gently push the shoulder through the seal but instead 'punch it out', then they really ought not to maintaining an engine but turn to some sort of macho physical labour instead.
  4/ whatever the seal is made from, even as I facetiously put it 'fairy feathers', it is still going to work in an oil mist environment, so oil will not instantly destroy the seal

  Your post #59 mike d seems like the right way to go regarding the suppliers who are probably more conscious these days of 'product liability ' issues.

Hi

I had a closer look at the rear main seal, and I agree the plastic sleeve has less relevance.
Most of the literature found on the websites refer to a situation where the seal is pushed onto a shaft.
in this situation, the shaft is inserted after the seal is installed, which makes me think is it possible for the stub shaft to punch out the centre of the oil seal?
I would consider a nitrile seal to be more appropriate for this application.
-I don't consider it necessary to soak oil seals in oil. Perhaps it's time for Motorworks and Motobins to update their instructions.
Nitrile seals should be lubed.
Regarding the k bikes, there isn't any option other than to push the stub shaft thru the oil seal.
If I was installing a teflon oil seal, I would remove the plastic sleeve when I am ready to replace the clutch basket carrier and lube the outer edge of the seal.
-I also think it's silly to refer to the positioning of the inner lip as hocus locus. If it's not facing in the right direction, it will leak.
I don't know if it's possible for the cluck basket carrier to punch out the centre of the oil seal.
Just my opinion.

Gabriel, I have no intention of getting wound up over this subject and going the same way as woodcutter, so I'll leave this subject now and eventually this Forum of my own free will. Bye

Kando wrote:Gabriel, I have no intention of getting wound up over this subject and going the same way as woodcutter, so I'll leave this subject now and eventually this Forum of my own free will. Bye

Hi
sorry you feel that way.
I was simply saying there is merit in both arguments.

Ta

Is the advice still to install the output shaft/clutch seal (on a '91 16V) 1mm proud of the housing and dry?
My new one from Motorworks is the one pictured at #19 in this topic (link below), but no installation instructions provided.
Thanks.


https://www.k100-forum.com/post?p=139923&mode=quote