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1Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Fuel pump frustration!!! Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:24 pm

swamp2

swamp2
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Took my '85 K100RT out for inspection today.  Less than 17k miles on it, was running perfectly yesterday, and then ran perfectly out to the inspection shop.  I was telling a guy there how it ran like a new bike, etc.  Passes the inspection.  I go to start it, fires for a second and dies.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Then I realize I'm not hearing the fuel pump running after the starter button is let off.  Pull the hose off the fuel rail, no pressure or spray when I crank.

My wife has to come out and pick me up, then I have to get my trailer and go get the stupid thing.  I have made no effort to diagnose other than disconnect/reconnect the tank connector to no avail.  I can hear the relay clicking.

I'm just pissed and frustrated right now and needed to vent! Fuel pump frustration!!! 61740

    

2Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:12 pm

Crazy Frog

Crazy Frog
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@swamp2 wrote:Took my '85 K100RT out for inspection today.  Less than 17k miles on it, was running perfectly yesterday, and then ran perfectly out to the inspection shop.  I was telling a guy there how it ran like a new bike, etc.  Passes the inspection.  I go to start it, fires for a second and dies.  Repeat.  Repeat.  Then I realize I'm not hearing the fuel pump running after the starter button is let off.  Pull the hose off the fuel rail, no pressure or spray when I crank.

My wife has to come out and pick me up, then I have to get my trailer and go get the stupid thing.  I have made no effort to diagnose other than disconnect/reconnect the tank connector to no avail.  I can hear the relay clicking.

I'm just pissed and frustrated right now and needed to vent! Fuel pump frustration!!! 61740
Before taking a sledge hammer on the pump, just disconnect the pug under the tank, clean it and reconnect.


__________________________________________________
Fuel pump frustration!!! Frog15Fuel pump frustration!!! Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

3Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:22 pm

swamp2

swamp2
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@Crazy Frog wrote:

Before taking a sledge hammer on the pump, just disconnect the pug under the tank, clean it and reconnect.
Yeah, I did that.  No satisfaction...

    

4Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:43 pm

Crazy Frog

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Do you get any power at the plug under the tank(purple and grey wire)?


__________________________________________________
Fuel pump frustration!!! Frog15Fuel pump frustration!!! Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

5Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:53 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Can you say with certainty which relay you heard clicking? Just curious because the fact you hear a click says your starter button is doing something and the known weak points are

the plug connector into the fuel tank, look inside it and adjust the pins to make a tight connection
the plug connector into the fuel injection control unit under the seat
battery earth to the lug on the gear box not being a good earth [also the earths under the fuel tank].
battery connections
battery itself being discharged...have heard of ignition being left on at some of these inspections so not enough to power the bike after and all you get is the starter relay clicking
break in wire between fuel tank and

By the sound of it your fuel pump is not getting any power either bad supply in or no earth allowing it to ground out.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

redrockmania

redrockmania
Silver member
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I am yet to try this BUT. met a K100 owner several years ago who had ditched the internal fuel pump and filter arrangement for an external pump and filter. He did some drawings and there are some obvious advantages such as easy accessibility, better visibility of these components and a small increase in tank fuel capacity. His drawing of the location of the external pump shows it mounted to the V shaped part of the frame proximate to where the battery is located. Although some purists may shudder, the fitting of a Lithium battery provides extra necessary space for fitment. I have a 1997 Moto Guzzi Daytona RS (Fuel Injected - similar pressures in the injection system) and Guzzi built them in the factory with an external fuel pump and filter - a delight to work on.
I am giving serious thought to trailing an external fuel pump and filter mod on my 1983 K100 for these reasons.

    

7Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:57 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Nest time you try it, something like this.

I had exactly the same problem, start and then died.

When you try again, hold the start button down and if it stays running then its a good sign its not the fuel pump.

The pump gets signal via 2 sources and one is the start button. But when the engine fires it gets its signal via the Hall Effect Sensors [HES] at the front of the engine. If it stays running while you are holding the start button then you know the fuel pump circuit is good and will stay running provided it has power.

Now have a look at your FICU under the seat and the plug into it. In my case this connection was the problem, due to a small crack on the clip that held the plug into the FICU. I did take it off to clean the connections and it was only on the second occasion I found the little crack. For the time I just swapped it with the one from my LT and glued the crack leaving it to sure.

If when you hold the start button down the pump stays running and the bike cuts out then I would be looking at a loss of pressure inside the tank. In that case open the tank and look in as you fire it up. You should see the return fuel coming back to the tank. See where its bubbling because a pump working means the pressure must go somewhere.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

8Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:28 am

Dai

Dai
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@redrockmania wrote: I have a 1997 Moto Guzzi Daytona RS (Fuel Injected - similar pressures in the injection system) and Guzzi built them in the factory with an external fuel pump and filter - a delight to work on.

[off topic] Ooo... I remember thrashing the nuts off the 'B' version of the Daytona in mid '96 for one of the UK bike mags (okay, so it was supposed to be a 'road test'). It hit 250kph (134mph) and was still accelerating when I ran out of road. [/off topic].


__________________________________________________
1983 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec, 1987 K100RT
Others...
1978 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, 1979 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,1993 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California
2020 Royal Enfield Bullet 500
    

9Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:24 am

RicK G

RicK G
admin
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If  you do fit an external pump then don't forget that the pickup inside the tank will need to be modified so as to get all the fuel and have a filter before the pump. A pre pump filter will have to be a good one as an 8 micron particle will jamb the pump.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

10Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:46 am

swamp2

swamp2
active member
active member
I'm looking at the voltage between the green/white and brown wires on the 4 position connector.  When I press the starter button, I get voltage.  When I release the button, the voltage persists for a second or 2, then goes away coincident with the clicking of the relay.  So it looks to me that everything is ok up to the fuel tank.

When I said it started before after the inspection, I guess it wasn't really running so much as burning off the bit of residual fuel in the rail.

It's a new day, so my emotions have calmed down a bit, but I'm still more than slightly annoyed as I'm also in the process of replacing every single part inside the gas tank of a dead K100LT.  Not a cheap proposition! 2 of my 4 K bikes are currently dead with similar ailments.

    

11Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:55 am

swamp2

swamp2
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Well, I'll be a son of a b.... Was looking at the connector on the harness side... the sockets looked ok, but decided to mash the side of the sockets in a bit to force better contact... reconnect, push the button, hear the happy whine and she starts right up!

I'm happy and all, but WTF!

    

12Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:07 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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When you press the starter button you get voltage. Correct.

When you press the starter button you heard the pump run. Also correct.

When you release the start button the power supply from it dies in 1-2 seconds. Also correct.

But when the engine actually fires the pump connector should still have power but it does not get its signal from the same place. The signal for running the fuel pump when the engine is running is coming from the HES. You need to be sure this signal is also giving power to the fuel tank connector.

The short but cruel test I have with my BMW colleague here is to keep the finger on the start button for an extra 5-10 seconds after the engine fires. If it stays running ok the 95% [not 100%] assumption is that the in tank part is working and to look outside the tank. There are instances on the forum of the electrical boxes pin connectors needing cleaning and also broken wires into the FICE under the seat causing this.

You have a number of Ks so one at a time swap an FICU and an ICU [at the headstock] and see if you get a change.

In both cases I had issues like that swapping these boxes cured it. One as I mentioned a hard to see crack in the FICU and the other well I never found out but put it down to dirty pins on the ICU. On my RT the tank plug checked out fine but there was enough wiggle room for it to break the connection and cut he engine. A reworking tightening up of the pins cured it

If you have similar tanks try a swap of your tank onto one of the other Ks.

The K tank system does sound a curse but in fact when you get used to it its quite easy to work on.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

13Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:09 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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@swamp2 wrote:Well, I'll be a son of a b.... Was looking at the connector on the harness side... the sockets looked ok, but decided to mash the side of the sockets in a bit to force better contact... reconnect, push the button, hear the happy whine and she starts right up!

I'm happy and all, but WTF!

That's worth a $100 contribution to the beer budget! Happy days and good to see it. Even better is that a lot of K issues can be fixed at the roadside if you know the bike well enough.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

14Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:09 am

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
Life time member
Hey, Swampster!  Where are you located?  I am about an hour from Ra-Cha-Cha and would be up for a ride to have a beverage and talk bricks.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS
1988 K100RS SE

Past:
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

15Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:24 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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@Point-Seven-five wrote:Hey, Swampster!  Where are you located?  I am about an hour from Ra-Cha-Cha and would be up for a ride to have a beverage and talk bricks.

+ 1 for the forum and how it leads to this.  Chatter Fuel pump frustration!!! 39723


A great outcome.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

16Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:35 pm

RicK G

RicK G
admin
admin
@swamp2 wrote:Well, I'll be a son of a b.... Was looking at the connector on the harness side... the sockets looked ok, but decided to mash the side of the sockets in a bit to force better contact... reconnect, push the button, hear the happy whine and she starts right up!

I'm happy and all, but WTF!
Get rid of that pissy little 4 pin connector they are nothing but trouble. I use a 4 terminal 6mm spade connector.
Fuel pump frustration!!! 4_pin_10


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

17Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:33 pm

swamp2

swamp2
active member
active member
@Point-Seven-five wrote:Hey, Swampster!  Where are you located?  I am about an hour from Ra-Cha-Cha and would be up for a ride to have a beverage and talk bricks.
Hey .75, I'm in Penfield, eastern suburb of Rochester.  But yeah, would definitely be up for an outing!  I'm a recently retired old (59) fart so have some flexibility, let me know what might work for you

Steve

    

18Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:36 pm

swamp2

swamp2
active member
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@RicK G wrote:

Get rid of that pissy little 4 pin connector they are nothing but trouble. I use a 4 terminal 6mm spade connector.
Fuel pump frustration!!! 4_pin_10
I was thinking the same thing earlier today - it's a pretty wimpy little connector given the critical nature of the electrons that need to pass through it.  I will likely try to find a suitable more robust alternative.

    

19Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:53 pm

swamp2

swamp2
active member
active member
Grrr! Stopped working again!!!! Hadn't used it for a couple weeks, went to ride it today and she wouldn't start.  The familiar lack of fuel pump noise after releasing the starter button.  So I connect/reconnect the 4 pin a few times, mash the sockets a little more - nothing.  Finally cut the connector out of the circuit and hard wire it (ok, with wire nuts...) - still nothing.  Direct connect the fuel pump wires to the battery - still nothing.  So it seems like my fuel pump bit the dust?  Before when it came back after fiddling with the connector, I guess that was just coincidence?

I still need to check that the +12v is actually making it to the fuel pump in the tank - I realize that can be an issue as well...  Just was too annoyed at the moment to drain a nearly full tank of gas to get at it...

    

20Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:31 am

blacKbricK

blacKbricK
Silver member
Silver member
:hp:While we are on the subject of Fuel pumps......I have been looking on ebay at 38mm Bosch for AU$57......a 36mm Kemso for AU$40. What is the verdict on what is best to replace the original with?  There is also a Denso and a VDO for around AU$70.


__________________________________________________
1987 K100RS VIN. 0143696K100 RSCJ ---- 1987 K100RT (Police) VIN 0095288 (Adopted from blaKey)  Plus 1998 R1100GS,   1980 Z1000ST, 1980 CB750,2005 Honda XL650V Transalp,1993 KLX650, 1998 DR250,1977 CR125 Elsinore and looking for more K bikes.( I'm hooked).
    

21Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:06 am

RicK G

RicK G
admin
admin
Get a VL Commodore pump 6 or V6 they are right size etc


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

22Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:40 pm

duck

duck
Life time member
Life time member
@RicK G wrote:
@swamp2 wrote:Well, I'll be a son of a b.... Was looking at the connector on the harness side... the sockets looked ok, but decided to mash the side of the sockets in a bit to force better contact... reconnect, push the button, hear the happy whine and she starts right up!

I'm happy and all, but WTF!
Get rid of that pissy little 4 pin connector they are nothing but trouble. I use a 4 terminal 6mm spade connector.
Fuel pump frustration!!! 4_pin_10
Or use a flat trailer wire connector - the colors even work:
Fuel pump frustration!!! Fls.co1


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
98 Taxi Cab K1200RS
14 K1600GT
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

23Back to top Go down   Fuel pump frustration!!! Empty Re: Fuel pump frustration!!! Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:55 pm

blacKbricK

blacKbricK
Silver member
Silver member
@RicK G wrote:Get a VL Commodore pump 6 or V6 they are right size etc
Thanks for that Rick G


__________________________________________________
1987 K100RS VIN. 0143696K100 RSCJ ---- 1987 K100RT (Police) VIN 0095288 (Adopted from blaKey)  Plus 1998 R1100GS,   1980 Z1000ST, 1980 CB750,2005 Honda XL650V Transalp,1993 KLX650, 1998 DR250,1977 CR125 Elsinore and looking for more K bikes.( I'm hooked).
    

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