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1Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:29 am

MartinW

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I built a rig to test injector spray patterns. I did a bit of research on what pattern I should be expecting, and found two conflicting views. One suggests that it should be a straight jet, this jet is atomized by hitting the back of the hot inlet valve. The other states it should be a cone shaped fine spray. After a fair bit of ultrasonic cleaning, and flushing and reverse flushing, I have two straight jets and one cone spray, initially the sprays were all over the place. As a weird aside the new conflicting spray patterns have eliminated back firing on over run. Previously this could be induced by giving it a bit of stick, and backing off now it doesn't even do it on over run with a partially opened throttle. Does anybody know what the correct spray pattern is for standard OEM injectors, I am leaning towards the cone spray.
Regards Martin.

    

2Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:33 am

Dai

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__________________________________________________
1983 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec, 1987 K100RT
Others...
1978 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, 1979 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,1993 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California
2020 Royal Enfield Bullet 500
    

3Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:58 am

charlie99

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yep straight martin
if you observe the hole for the injectors into the head , with valves fitted you might observe that it should surround the inlet valve close to the stem junction on 8 valve models (obviously the valve stem gets in the way of some of the spray pattern )

as an aside the actual path of the induction is slightly kinked- offset as it gets further away form the valve seat , i guess this acts to create the tumbling effect as it enters the cylinder ..by design that bmw have employed on the pre 16 valve models

good luck with the cleaning process ...it doesn't seem to be as straight forward as it might first appear, if you are seeing weird - inconsistent spray patterns

just a question ...are you sure that you are comparing apples with apples ...ie getting consistent fuel pressure and delivery for the comparison ?  sometimes the fuel delivery dimensions can restrict the actual flow pressures and supply quantity expected

keep at it mate

any feedback is good stuff


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OOEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

4Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:28 am

MartinW

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Thanks fellas it looks like I have two good ones and one that is a cross between #2 and #6. Initially very poor patterns,  it looks like now I just have one to clean. I checked the individual header pipes with a laser temperature gun and I have two the same and one hotter, probably the cone pattern. I might have to use a stronger cleaner have been using Valvoline injector cleaner 50-50 mix with petrol in the pattern tester and straight Valvoline in the ultrasonic cleaner ( Aldi jewelry cleaner purloined from the Honorable Minister for Finance and Recreation). I have been told by the place I got the filters and "O" rings to use lacquer thinners so I will probably give that a try.

I am determined to get them clean, I have found out a mates son is building a even more sophisticated rig with graduated vessels and an auto pulse system. He is also apparently using potassium hydroxide as a cleaner, I don't know whether it is up and running as he is down south and won't be back for a week. At the moment I can only do one injector at a time but I might try and do all three on the weekend. Charlie rough drawing attached, I can vary the pressure by adjusting the regulator on my compressor. The rig is a work in progress and hopefully will evolve with time.OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Inject10
Regards Martin.

    

5Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:09 am

Holister

Holister
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The oem #210 is a type 'A' injector which has a conical spray pattern of 13º. Yep.... it looks straight because 13º is pretty narrow and most of the spray falls in the centre part of the pattern anyway.

OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern 274049843


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

6Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:35 am

charlie99

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hi mate
I made a simple 12 volt sequencer out of some electronics...the pulse rate can be varied across the 4 injectors

the reason for this is to see the flow passed after a measured time  given constant pressure .
so that  percentage difference of  flows could be observed ..and if needed further cleaning performed , also the spray pattern to be observed

in the past we have used carbi cleaner to release  the gunge off the flow path of the injectors ...and after a bath in the ultrasonic cleaner
which worked pretty well

at one time I had what I could describe as a valve follower failure on the motor , but after more consideration likely to be a failed spray pattern on an injector
but long story short  I modified the head on a gift unit and installed newer injectors of the 4 hole type ...which to date have served well .

I have yet to revisit the pulled injectors to establish the failed unit . but will be happening some time in coming months as I try to assemble another machine .

unfortunately I blew up 1 of the output controls of the sequencer for one the injectors ...but will replace the faulty component soon  so that all 4 rattle away again

the cycle of the sequencer gives about 50 duty cycle ...so to me that sounds about right to exercise  and test the operation ...rather than 80% and greater duty cycle

if you want to borrow it for a while,  after I fix it ...no problems ,,,the interest might get me working on it again


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OOEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

7Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:35 pm

MartinW

MartinW
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Again thanks fellas, I'll give the carb cleaner a try. I would love a sequencer,  I might be able to get the plans off my mates son, a lot hinges on what happens this weekend. I need to get more injector filters, the shop I got them off this time might be a bit reluctant to keep on supplying parts. I am not sure I can clean out the final injector without damaging the filter and whether carb cleaner will clean the final injector. Also not sure about the recommendation to  use acrylic thinners as a flush and cleaner. And if I can't get it clean whether my mates son got his rig going and will it clean the final injector. Charlie I would love to see your sequencer  when you get it going.
Regards Martin.

    

8Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:40 am

MartinW

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I decided to remove the belly pan in order to get better shots at the header with the laser temperature gun. I took it for a hard run and I am now showing all header temperatures pretty well equal. Pulled the spark plugs and all showing the same grey tan colour. Went over to a mates place in order to have a look at an old K75 engine he has got. I wanted to see what colour pintle caps it had, they are yellow, and I do believe my original ones were yellow. The one I have just removed were green and they have been replaced with blue ones. When I tried to get some the other day I tried to get yellow ones but he didn't have any so I am using the blue ones. The green ones are not counter sunk at the orifice the yellow and the blue are. I am not sure what the differences are beside the obvious ones such as length and the counter sinking. What are the correct pintle caps opinions very welcome.

At the moment I still have not had any backfiring just the normal rumble gurgle on overrun even with a partially open throttle which previously invoked large back fires. My brick has always had a slight supposedly normal backfiring problem. The problem has been minimized by keeping the mixture, and TPS adjusted. I have used Caltex Techron once or twice a year and cleaned my injectors with the ultrasonic cleaner, every few years. It was not until I built the test rig that I became clear the ultrasonic cleaner while it will clean them you don't know when they are clean unless you test them. And it seems that you may be able to cure K75's backfiring in some cases.

I was going to ask Charlie for his sequencer plans but I found one on EBay cheapish $37.00, I could of got one cheaper same brand from China but impatience set in. As Repco has a 30% off sale on Sunday I'll buy some carby cleaner tomorrow. I'm going to keep chasing a local source of pintle caps, "O" rings and filters so far no luck. I will continue testing when the sequencer arrives.
Regards Martin.

    

9Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:41 am

charlie99

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hi martin we lot have bought injector repair kits from Melbourne before

from memory about $20 for a set of 8 (likely from a v8 kit ) but in any case the fit and work

heres the link if your interested ....oops

bugga the link is no longer valid

but this might help

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HOLDEN-BOSCH-FUEL-INJECTOR-REPAIR-KIT-SUITS-VN-VP-VR-VS-VT-V8-5LTR-/222631019384?hash=item33d5d7c378:g:rdkAAOSwCL9ZqUv ~


probably worth investigating how the pintle caps but we did do some experimenting up at albys place on a "work shop  weekend" a few years ago now

the "after" spray patterns seemed pretty good for the setup we had at that time  

try searching for workshop day  ?

unless someone has a link for back then ?


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OOEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

10Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:53 am

MartinW

MartinW
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Charlie after heaps of searching I came across one site that states yellow pintles were OEM Bosch, blue are universal Bosch. I've ordered an 8 cyl set off Ebay, and I'm waiting for my mates son to get back from Melbourne apparently he might be able to get the yellow pintle caps and other injector parts.
 
The mate has also given me four old 3.9 Lt Falcon injectors to play with, all four show 15 ohms. However there was no action or sound with the solenoids. After quite a few cycles in the ultrasonic bath and a day of soaking in injector cleaner one has freed up slightly. Seeing as I don't know anybody with a 3.9 falcon I might try using lacquer thinners on them. The shop I got my original kits off said that is what they use. Mate reckons it might damage them, I can't see how.

I'll hit Repco tomorrow for carby cleaner I got a voucher for 30% off the other day but only applies to Sunday. I'll use that on the BM injectors until I find out whether the thinners is OK to use. I intend to pull my injectors once I have the sequencer and recheck the patterns. I am hoping that with consistent header temperature and plug colour the patterns will be right. Floyd has also offered up some old K100 injectors for me to play with which will come in handy. 
Regards Martin.

    

11Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:21 am

charlie99

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yes your right the colours of the plugs show the correct volume is being injected

but the spray pattern could make a fair bit of difference in the feel of it all

good luck on the experimentation mate


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OOEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

12Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:58 am

MartinW

MartinW
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Another day in the lab.I've recently  been playing with injectors, and cleaning them. I decided to try three different cleaning solutions and the outcome on totally blocked injectors.  A mate loaned me six injectors these injectors were showing 15 ohms on three Bosch 3.9 Falcon and 12 ohms on three OEM k75 the second type. All these injectors were totally seized no clicking. First solution was a mixture of Valvoline injector cleaner and petrol 50-50. This is what I had used on my partially clogged injectors on my Brick using my test rig and ultrasonic. Valvoline petrol 50-50 multiple runs and soaking cleared the blockage eventually on one Falcon injector. Straight injector cleaner failed to clean any after multiple baths and soaking for 24hrs. Repco carby cleaner sprayed into the injectors and left to soak for 24 hrs no change. Repco cleaner followed by the Valvoline mix in the ultrasonic 6 cycles and soaking failed. Acrylic thinners cleared the three OEM injectors after 4 ultrasonic cycles and one Falcon. It took six cycles to clear the next and eight to clear the last. Each cycle was three minutes long set on high. Although the injector solenoids are now functioning it might take either more cycles or flushing and back flushing to get correct patterns. All cleaning was done with the internal filter baskets in place, and thinners will make the "O" rings swell. Further testing will be done when I get the sequencer.
Regards Martin

    

13Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:09 am

MartinW

MartinW
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Received the sequencer pulsar on Wednesday, came home from dump day and decided to have a play. Two of the borrowed K75 injectors just dribbled on the tester, one totally blocked. So back in the thinners filled ultrasonic bath with the sequencer attached, two came good after one bath. The last one came good with three baths sequencer attached, patterns on all three look good. Until I know what the pattern is on the Ford ones are I will leave them alone.

So the total cost of setting this up MAP bottle and hose and some of the fittings I already had $20.00 for the ones I didn't have. Three bottles of injector cleaner I've had in stock for a year bought for $2.00 Au a bottle, one can carby cleaner $7.50 Au, 600ml of thinners $10.00 Au, sequencer was $37.00 Au. "O" rings, filters, pintle caps $15.00 Au. I would not use injector cleaner carby cleaner again, on totally frozen injectors. The thinners was the only thing that cleared them quickly. With more time maybe the cleaners might have worked.

I'm still chasing a source of yellow pintle caps, mates son is back and he's going to question him about a source for injector parts. The total cost for the rig and cleaning six injectors has been $75.50 Au. And I'm not including the three Falcon ones which are partially done. Even with the parts I already had I wouldn't have exceeded $100.00 Au. The fuel filter is one I removed from my Brick on the last service and kept for use in the rig.

Even though the Brick is running better than it has ever run, and no matter what I try I can't induce a backfire. On Monday for the sake of thorough testing I will remove my previously cleaned injectors,  and put them on the rig with the sequencer. Due to the way it's running I'm expecting to see good patterns. The mate who has lent me his spare injectors is highly sceptical of my Brick no longer backfiring after cleaning the injectors. He had his injectors cleaned and tested by his son when his son worked for another company. And after cleaning, his brick still backfired on overrun. Maybe I have just been lucky, anyway I will post the results when I do the next test.
Regards Martin.

    

14Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:07 am

charlie99

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good effort martin '


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OOEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

15Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:53 pm

MartinW

MartinW
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Source of the pulse unit for those who don't want to make one, it's working well does what it's supposed to do. They sent it pretty fast and comes with a nifty zip up bag. The connectors to the injectors are too large so I made up some adapter leads with smaller connectors.
Regards Martin.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Australia-Stock-All-Sun-EM276-Injector-Tester-Fuel-System-Diagnostic-Scan-Tool-/152681840818?

OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Fuel_i10

    

16Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:26 am

k-rider

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The connectors to the injectors are too large so I made up some adapter leads with smaller connectors


or you could use an ev1 connector with some male spade connectors on the other end , then its plug and play 😋


k-rider


17Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:45 pm

MartinW

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Thanks K I have tried a couple of car wreckers for a connector but the two I tried were unwilling to sell me one connector, they wanted to sell me a complete harness. If I decided to modify the rig to do four injectors at the same time four comparison it might be worthwhile. In the meantime it is not that much of a chore. I have also found a source of a 250ml glass graduated vessel so I can compare and match timed flow rates. I ended up getting one from the local DIY home brew shop.
Regards Martin.
OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern 250_ml10

    

18Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:47 pm

MartinW

MartinW
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Just finished putting the Brick back together after testing, all injectors displaying an excellent pattern. And the flow rates with what testing equipment I've got are the same. I have found out something that should have been obvious don't spill thinners on a cheap Aldi ultrasonic cleaner. Still trying to find a local source of yellow pintle caps and "O" rings and filters. I will post if and when I find a source.

As far as the test rig and the injector pulsar sequencer goes I am extremely happy. I have however changed the way I attach the hose to the injector, for speed I have done away with the machined up part with the bolts. I now use a hose reducer and attach the hose directly using a hose clip you can also reverse the connection to back flow the injectors.
Regards Martin.

    

19Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:33 am

Holister

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@MartinW wrote:.......
Still trying to find a local source of yellow pintle caps and "O" rings and filters. I will post if and when I find a source.
.....
As far as I know the colour makes no difference. If you buy a kit for EV1 'pintle' injectors they should be ok. The pintle cap is only for protection as the pintle valve itself opens out and because it's so fine it can be easily damaged. I think the pintle cap has a 1.5mm hole Vs the 4 hole cap which has a 3mm hole.
Also some caps for different styles of pintle injectors have longer caps. Make sure the ones you use are seated properly over the pintle valve.
This is the kit I use for my K100 injectors and I've never had any problems.
Injector sevice kit

    

20Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:42 am

MartinW

MartinW
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Thanks Holister good to know. The old K75 is running better than it's ever run, and since the clean seems to hustle a bit better. I'm glad that I stuffed around and did it. And I still can't get it to backfire.
Regards Martin.

    

21Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:50 am

MartinW

MartinW
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The Brick has definitely got more grunt and is quite noticeable after cleaning the injectors. I have now got a source of "O" rings, filters and caps. The mate rang tonight and told me I can get them though his sons company. He told me to work out what I want and he'll get me a price, so I'm going to put an initial order in to cover twelve injectors. I'll put the order in on Wednesday and I'll get back with the prices when I get them. 
Regards Martin.

    

22Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:47 am

charlie99

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OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern 112350

good work


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OOEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

23Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:50 am

blaKey

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Is there any rich bastard (Oz term of endearment) out there wanting to buy me this ?

You'll go on my Christmas card list for at least a year or two...


__________________________________________________
Neil
K100RS 1986 RED!

Dress for the ride and the potential slide.
    

24Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:16 am

Dai

Dai
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Ask Charlie about the cheap way to do it. I'm sworn to secrecy... OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern 44271


__________________________________________________
1983 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec, 1987 K100RT
Others...
1978 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, 1979 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,1993 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California
2020 Royal Enfield Bullet 500
    

25Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:20 am

blaKey

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I know of the "cheap" method, but this would look nice in the man cave!


__________________________________________________
Neil
K100RS 1986 RED!

Dress for the ride and the potential slide.
    

26Back to top Go down   OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Empty Re: OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:45 am

charlie99

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OEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern 44271

sorry Blakey mate

all I can offer is a simple injector sequencer ...(it fires one injector then the next in the series of 4 ) with adjustable speed on the sequence rate

but that bit of machinery does look the goods eh?


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OOEM Fuel Injector Spray Pattern Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

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