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1Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Ignition cylinder Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:59 pm

87m6chris

87m6chris
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1990 K75s,
Something strange happened this morning, just got the bike back together after some major and minor work but was having a hard time getting it going. I suspected the fuel pump so pulled the injectors/fuel rail as a unit and directed them into a catch can and hit the starter button, no fuel was coming from them and could hear no real pump type sound from the opened tank. So I turned the ignition key off but the starter kept cranking, I hit the kill switch, the starter keep cranking, I ran and grabbed a screw driver and disconnected the positive battery terminal to shut it down.
Could the this be a bad ignition cylinder?
The battery is new and fully charged, starter relay is new, starter was rebuilt in the fall with clean grounding surface on the base and contact areas?
As always, all advice is welcome.
Thanks,
Chris

    

2Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:08 am

blaKey

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Well, I was reading the post and thought of the dreaded "fused contacts in the starter relay" until I read that it was brand new.
Even if it was new, there may be a (slim I know) chance that it may be a faulty unit. Stranger things have happened.

May I suggest you take apart your ignition switch and check/clean it? Not hard to do, but there are a few small parts.
Do you need an ear-bashing about how good DeoxIT is?

I'm sure there is a write-up about this in the download section with a few photos.

Oh and check your starter relay to make sure the contacts are not still fused.

I hope this helps.


__________________________________________________
Neil
K100RS 1986 RED!

Dress for the ride and the potential slide.
    

3Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:52 am

K-BIKE

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Hi Chris,
The problem sounds very much like the welded relay contact problem which can affect all K's and the newer the relay potentially the more likely it is. What happens is the relay contact arcs and the current draw is huge because the commutator segments are across the brushes longer so current is high and the contacts weld together and it keeps cranking. Fix is to disconnect the relay, open it up clean up the contacts, preferably with a diamond contact file, charge the battery and reinstall the relay whilst the battery is charging. All should be fine then. I personally doubt the ignition switch is a problem from the description.
Regards,
K-BIKE

    

4Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:23 am

87m6chris

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Okay, will try that. -25C in the garage at the moment but suppose to be warmer tomorrow.

    

5Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:34 pm

Crazy Frog

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@87m6chris wrote:Okay, will try that. -25C in the garage at the moment but suppose to be warmer tomorrow.

🆒
I should go to check the K100 in the shed. It was -20c this morning.


__________________________________________________
Ignition cylinder Frog15Ignition cylinder Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

6Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:55 pm

charlie99

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minus 25c ......omg ....no wonder it welded the contacts .... good greif !!!


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OIgnition cylinder Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

7Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:45 pm

87m6chris

87m6chris
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@charlie99 wrote:minus 25c ......omg ....no wonder it welded the contacts .... good greif !!!
Charlie, are serious? could the cold affect it like that or are you pulling my leg?

    

8Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:20 pm

charlie99

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honestly ...not living in an as cold climate it would be hard for me to judge chris ...but if my metalurgy is correct , i would be thinking the engine would be "tight " way tight at those temperatures .

i seem to recall stories of heating engines up before attempting to start them because of that fact ...not counting the oil properties below freezing ...but maybe some other members can shed light on this subject ...

it is unfortunate that the k bikes dont have a kick starter to judge just how tight the engine is at different temperatures .
but i do remember having to attempt to start my suzuki after it had snowed the night before (camped out on an alpine rally ) i found it verry difficult to turn it over . this was a totally reliable bike in all conditions other wise with usually just a half crank to get it motoring .

thus my thinking of the added amps required to get the rotation happening ?


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OIgnition cylinder Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

9Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:01 pm

japuentes

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Hi there, regarding the very cold engine start, I live in a tropical desert, but 10 hours from the venezuelan andes, and remember that once stay to sleep in a hotel over 3500mts by the morning the temp was minus 8 or something and the car´s oil was so thick the starter wouldnt turn the engine, local guys told me to wait until the sun gets the car warn. Also remeber a time wen my sisters in Montreal did not have a closed garage for the cars and they have to plug a car´s device to keep the engine warm.
Best regards
JAP

    

10Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:48 am

K-BIKE

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Any vehicle that is kept and started at -20 needs synthetic oil otherwise the thickening of the oil will slow the cranking and potentially lead to a welded relay especially if the battery is at -20 since the battery output plummets at those sorts of temperatures. I strongly suggest synthetic lubricants all round and a proper battery tender type charger designed to be left connected whilst parked, that will keep the battery just warm enough to be good to go.
Regards,
K-BIKE

    

11Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:35 pm

studebaker8

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Had the same problem but destroyed the starter motor after riding about 50 miles with the starter turning.Found that the relay 0 332 002 156 orignal germany, replacement from Portugal has an additional diode fitted and causing the problem.Cleaned the original and refitted.5000km since and no problems.

    

12Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:45 pm

87m6chris

87m6chris
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@studebaker8 wrote:Had the same problem but destroyed the starter motor after riding about 50 miles with the starter turning.Found that the relay 0 332 002 156 orignal germany, replacement from Portugal has an additional diode fitted and causing the problem.Cleaned the original and refitted.5000km since and no problems.
Studebaker8, welcome aboard,
Just took apart the new starter relay that was made in Portugal and the contacts weren't welded together,
they are very clean. I didn't see a second diode but the new relay has 4 contact areas, 2up 2 down, the original made in Germany has 1 up 1 down. That might be part of the problem?
Anyway, it will be mild tomorrow so will start warming up the shop early and I guess I'll pull the fuel pump and see why that is not working.
Thanks Gents

    

13Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:55 pm

charlie99

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good luck chris ...hope you find the problem



Last edited by charlie99 on Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:24 pm; edited 2 times in total

    

14Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:20 pm

87m6chris

87m6chris
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I will, nothing I hate more than multiple faults at the same time.
Such a bugger to sort out sometimes.
But thanks

    

15Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:26 pm

charlie99

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just a thought

diode in there ? is that normal ? might be a good idea to have a look at the old relay as well .......not knowing for sure but if there was a diode in there it could create a latch situation ..ie once initiated the diode could be a feed to hold the relay energised ......sorry just thinking out aloud ...corse it depends on the way its done

but id be checking the starter switch contacts as well ...maybe it would be a good idea to take off the starter feed cable from the relay till you get it right - during testing maybe use a globe as a load / indicator ?


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OIgnition cylinder Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

16Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:35 pm

87m6chris

87m6chris
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Success!
Not sure which one of these fixes did it, possibly all of them.
-removed the new starter relay and re-installed the old one but cleaned up
-dismantled the ignition switch,cleaned and lubed it,
-cleaned all the electrical connections again,
-warmed up the oil with a light bulb touching the oil pan all night.
Started right up with no problem.
Thanks again guys, you're the best.

    

17Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:31 am

charlie99

charlie99
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yay ,,,,!!!!


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OIgnition cylinder Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

18Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:18 am

blaKey

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Well, if it wasn't the ignition switch, you won't have to touch it again for a few years!

Good work.


__________________________________________________
Neil
K100RS 1986 RED!

Dress for the ride and the potential slide.
    

19Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:20 am

K-BIKE

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Great news. Seriously if it is still in those low temps change to synthetic like Mobil 1 ASAP and it will flow just fine down to well below the temperature you were experiencing.
Regards,
K-BIKE

    

20Back to top Go down   Ignition cylinder Empty Re: Ignition cylinder Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:22 pm

ReneZ

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Or indeed keep a light under the pan and keep the oil warm overnight Very Happy


__________________________________________________
Greetings from Florida! Having a 'new' K  :cyclops:    Surprised-o: 

Rene


BMW K100 - 1985 (0030029) Ignition cylinder Rain
BMW K1200GT - 2003 (ZK01223)
    

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