BMW K bikes (Bricks)

You are not connected. Please login or register

View previous topic View next topic Go down  Message [Page 1 of 1]


1Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Starter warning light Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:35 am

viney

avatar
active member
active member
Hey guys
It hasn't happened to me (touch wood) but I have heard a few horror stories from various people who have gone for a ride only to learn when it came time to fire her up, turn around and come home they found their starter never disengaged for the whole outbound journey and got fried

Had a look around the forum but didn't see anything that jumped out at me on the subject so forgive me if I am starting up a well thrashed out topic

Has anyone had this problem and what preventative measures were taken to make sure this doesn't happen again?

Could it be as simple as fitting an LED light to the starter circuit (so when the light stays on you frantically jump off the bike and try pull the battery terminal off before the starter or battery die) or has a more practical solution been found?

cheers

    

2Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:55 am

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
wow what a solution viney .......from what i have read its the "sprag clutch " that becomes contaminated /gunked up causing it to lock in place durring the start process ......pity there isnt some sort of feedback about whether its engaged or not .

there are many folks in here that have had similar isues i think ...and i will pass the subject on to them ........

but i have to say what a brilliant idea led indicator for starter still engaged ....

hmmm come to think of it at some point when the starter is no longer activated by the start relay and should be spinning down .....if the clutch was locked on there would be a generator effect still happening whilst the field winding collapse.... sooo theoretically if we took a feed off the output of the starter relay ...and connected it to a led ....it may just illumiinate till the speed of the starter goes to nothing ...or in this case ...keeps spinning ...keeps the lled alight

wow just brilliant ......i think we need to explore this
maybe the 7 litre fuel warning indicator could be used for this task ????
when you see the light staying on ...hit the kill switch ????



thoughts gentlemen ?

    

3Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:41 am

ReneZ

ReneZ
Life time member
Life time member
The problem has nothing to do with the sprague clutch, as when that is gummed up the bike won't start (although the starter motor engages).

The problem with the starter motor continuing to run happens when one tries to start the bike with a (too much) discharged battery. As a result the starter relay contacts with weld together and result in continuous running of the starter motor, which will eventually cook the battery.

It would be a great idea to connect a LED to the starter motor lead as a check/indication, but it would already be too late when it stays on and then suddenly you need to quick-disconnect the battery or starter motor, which is not set up for that.

I have fitted a Volt gauge to ensure I don't try to start it when the voltage is too low. I think it it wiser to try to prevent the issue, but no doubt the question then is how low is too low. I don't know, but if the battery doesn't show more than 12V I won't start her and put it on the charger/maintainer first. Another way is when you plan a trip for the next day to put it on the charger overnight. As usual, this works for me until now, until it doesn't Laughing


__________________________________________________
Greetings from Florida! Having a 'new' K  :cyclops:    Surprised-o: 

Rene


BMW K100 - 1985 (0030029) Starter warning light Rain
BMW K1200GT - 2003 (ZK01223)
    

4Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:20 am

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
ah! excelent observation rene i had gathered the opinion that the clutch bound my mistake.. but we have seen a few posts regarding this relay binding /welding recently .. i guess the battery voltage could lead to a false positive ...measures 12 volts unloaded buy on start load could plunge dramaticaly .
i wonder if temperature has a relation to this ...either oil or whatever adding additional restrictions to the crank ability and thus current draw .

i wonder if we could establish what is a practicle but safe current draw on a reasonably cold motor .

maybe a circuit breaker in line with the starter relay would provide a suitable safety margin.
if so a led could be wired accross the contacts so that the open circuiit operation of the c/b would be indicated durring start process
.
circuit breakers are nice devices in as much ..as after operation there is a recovery time involved whilst it recovers and cools down .
but barstard things if you know you have to wait for it to reset ....lol
of corse there are many more acurate means of doing this .....but "keep it simple" is always a good policy .


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OStarter warning light Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

5Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:03 am

Crazy Frog

Crazy Frog
admin
admin
Starter warning light 212902 Starter warning light 39723
My 2 Ks have a flashing LED on the dash. Here is an example
it's hooked in parallel with the lead of the starter motor (directly on the relay).
As soon as the starter is energized (by pushing the starter button or if the relay is stocked), this red LED will flash. it really catch your attention!
i did it about 10 years ago on the K75 after I rode for a whole afternoon with the starter running.
I also have a 30A rocker switch on the negative of the battery. If the starter relay ever burn, I just have to flick this switch to isolate the battery. The switch is installed where the accessory plug normally fits.

Starter warning light Led_st10

Starter warning light Dsc_1510



Last edited by Crazy Frog on Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________
Starter warning light Frog15Starter warning light Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

6Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:10 am

Crazy Frog

Crazy Frog
admin
admin
@charlie99 wrote:
circuit breakers are nice devices in as much ..as after operation there is a recovery time involved whilst it recovers and cools down .

I always have a spare circuit breaker in my tool box.
Why?
If you have a short when riding, you may use all your spare fuses before finding the problem. Temporarily installing the circuit breaker in stead of a fuse will let you troubleshoot and find the problem while you electrical circuit is still protected.

Check this post to have a good idea of what you should have in your tool kit.


__________________________________________________
Starter warning light Frog15Starter warning light Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

7Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:49 am

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
your a smart frog ...bert ...goodonya


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OStarter warning light Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

8Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:07 am

viney

avatar
active member
active member
Hey Bert
I had a feeling you would have had this one sorted a while back. That is even better than what I was thinking about.

So from what you are saying you are not attaching the LED directly to the positive of the starter but to the relay in the box under the tank. Am I right?
Does the circuit breaker fit onto the neg of the starter between it and the battery or does it totally isolate the battery from everything?

cheers mate

    

9Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:28 am

Crazy Frog

Crazy Frog
admin
admin
I attached the wire on the positive of the starter but inside the electrical tray where the starter wire is connected to the relay . The reason why I chose this location is because it's protected from the weather and it's not any extra external wire going to the starter.
I don't have a circuit breaker on the starter. This is a good idea, but it would have to be at least 60A (the starter motor is 600w) and I don't think you can find a small unit supporting such a high power.
I solely rely on the LED to warn me and the rocker switch to shut off the negative from the battery if I ever have a problem.


__________________________________________________
Starter warning light Frog15Starter warning light Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

10Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:32 pm

Crazy Frog

Crazy Frog
admin
admin
oh, by the way, the shiny thing on the handle bar (on the left of the ignition key) is a strong magnet (See here) . I use it to stick my quarters when I am planning to pass a toll road. this is a 3/4" diameter and it will hold up to 22 lbs (you can easily stick 3 quarters on it - I know, the Canadian $ has a good value, but doesn't weight so much). The 3/4" magnet comes with a holder that you can screw on the handle bar.



Last edited by Crazy Frog on Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Magnet is on the left and not on the right)


__________________________________________________
Starter warning light Frog15Starter warning light Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

11Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:21 am

viney

avatar
active member
active member
Hey Bert
yeah I was wondering what that was mate your dash looks a bit different to what I am familiar with but I am sure it suits your needs well. One thing for sure having the magnets beats rummaging around in your pockets with gloves on searching for change while dropping it all on the road

having worked out that it is probably a worthwhile job i went down the local electronics store (jaycar here in Melbourne, aust is pretty good) but the switches they had were only a few amps (about 5A).. not sure if they would be able to handle the current. But I am no expert ... maybe they don't need too much beef being on the earth side of the circuit. what do you recommend to be suitable?
cheers

    

12Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:12 am

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
verry definatly steer away from low current switches viney ....well for this application

better to look more "automotive " types ...where the contacts are rated higher ....did bert say 30 amps ? i should think that this would be more acceptable and ruged as well .
btw i have seen rubber toggle caps more available these days and might be a benifit if the switch is going to be mounted "in weather affected" areas .
just a thought


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OStarter warning light Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

13Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:15 pm

Crazy Frog

Crazy Frog
admin
admin
Here is a type of switch that would be perfect for this application (500 amp).
You could also look at switches for marine application as it would definitely be water proof.



Last edited by Crazy Frog on Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:50 am; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________
Starter warning light Frog15Starter warning light Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

14Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:33 pm

viney

avatar
active member
active member
Hey Bert
Thanks for that mate have ordered the part and awaiting it's arrival
I spent a good couple of hours scouring the internet and these guys are a fraction of the price i can get it for down here in Australia

    

15Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:06 am

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
good work viney ...let us know how it fitts up ......er and the price too huh??


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OStarter warning light Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

16Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:41 am

Adiwan Djohanli

Adiwan Djohanli
Silver member
Silver member
Well guys, I guess I am luckier in this case.

I did turned on the starter switch many times till the battery flat, but the starter relay is still in good working order.

I have a brand new good MF sealed battery 40 Amps on the bike.

Cheers


__________________________________________________
Adiwan Djohanli
Jakarta-Indonesia[i]
    

17Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:36 pm

Crazy Frog

Crazy Frog
admin
admin
Here is where I connected the flashing LED to warn me when the starter is energized:

Starter warning light Dsc_1526


__________________________________________________
Starter warning light Frog15Starter warning light Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

18Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:58 pm

kevin_stevens

avatar
active member
active member
Just trying to learn something here - how the heck would you not hear that if the starter kept running, engaged or not?

KeS

    

19Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:03 pm

Crazy Frog

Crazy Frog
admin
admin
When the engine is running and you have your helmet, you don't really hear it.
Since the starter is not driving the crankshaft, its not louder than the electric motor on the cooling fan. In fact, the cooling fan is louder.
Just take a K100 starter and make it spin when not mounted on the bike. It's very quiet.


__________________________________________________
Starter warning light Frog15Starter warning light Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

20Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:17 am

Adiwan Djohanli

Adiwan Djohanli
Silver member
Silver member
I may need to recheck the starter motor of my bike.

Thanks.


__________________________________________________
Adiwan Djohanli
Jakarta-Indonesia[i]
    

21Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:50 am

WayneDW

WayneDW
Silver member
Silver member
Great ideas, guys.
More to put on my "to-do" list. That's OK, the winter just keeps getting longer, which gives me more time to work on the bike before riding season.

I'm a little surprised that the kill switch on the handle bar doesn't do the same thing as the proposed kill switch on the negative side of the battery. I guess not...? I also see the extra switch as a theft deterrent as well.

http://www.fossilapostles.com
    

22Back to top Go down   Starter warning light Empty Re: Starter warning light Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:19 am

viney

avatar
active member
active member
Thanks for the advice Bert
I see your starter relay is made in Germany.Noticed that mine is still bosch but is made in Malaysia
anyway fellas it has all been hooked up for the price of about $60 AU which comprises of
marine safety switch $20 plus about $30 shipping to Australia (forget the actual amount must be getting old)
$10 for the LED light and a few electrical connectors
all of you northern hemispherians will get the safety switch delivered much cheaper than us guys down under
all up it took 2-3 hours to finish the job and it's nice to know that if there is ever a problem with the starter I will know about it before the thing totally shits itself
It is good piece of mind and I recommend it to anyone who is interested
will post a couple of photos shortly
cheers

    

View previous topic View next topic Back to top  Message [Page 1 of 1]

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum