Think I may know what happened but just as a sanity check and for your amusement. Haven't ridden much for the past 12 weeks due to having had knee replacement surgery. But there is a club breakfast meet this Sunday and I decided to attend on Silver my K75 and current main ride. So I pulled him out of the garage and got all suited up to take a check ride through the island and then some freeway. Bike started easily and I got about a mile down my street when I started getting the alternator light coming on and the bike stalling. Turned around to head for home and it stopped. Spent the next fifteen minutes starting the bike only to have it stop on its own as though it wasn't getting fuel. Checked the fuel, full tank. Continued to restart. The digital voltmeter showed the voltage dropping to 9 volts and then bouncing back up. Tried turning the key off and then back on. Finally it started and I kept the rpm's above 3K and I went for home. Wanting more of a feel for what was happening I looped around a few local blocks. Within pushing distance of home. Everything seemed ok other than the turn signals were either not working or working and not cancel-able. Deciding to pull it apart and check it out I pulled into the back yard by the garage and turned the key off. Bike kept running.  Put it in 1st gear and with the brake on let out on the clutch. It was possessed. The engine would slow down and stop. I held it stopped for a minute by the clock. But as soon as I pulled in on the clutch the bike restarted. Finally with the bike on the center stand I took out all the fuses. Didn't do a thing. Machine was still running. Finally I disconnected the battery and put it in gear and with the brake set let out on the clutch. It finally stopped. Checked the battery. Voltage down around 6 volts. Checked the positive wire off the battery (disconnected) and found it had 1 ohm resistance. Afterwards I put the battery on a charger and it reports it is back up to 12 volts.

My suspicion based on what I have read here and elsewhere is that I had a short due to carbon in the starter motor and the starter relay is probably fused. Haven't had time yet to pull it down and check. Wanted to ask if anyone has put together a check list of steps to clean the starter and any other relevant parts. I am assuming I will need to replace the starter relay and I've got to check all the local 2nd hand sources. Suggestions always appreciated.

thanks
J.

I imagine what happened is your battery was low are standing and you 'welded' the contacts in the starter relay. Its a well known happening due to low battery.

Battery back up to 12 volts means battery is goosed, it should be higher. 

I would not be buying a used starter relay, waste of money. 

Starter brush kit form BMW is silly money cheap, I buy spares all the time and keep brand new stuff like that, voltage regulators etc.

Well the starter relay doesn't appear to be the culprit. I pulled it and checked the ohms when the relay is energized the power contacts show one ohm resistance. When not energized the resistance is infinite. And multiple breaks in the energizing circuit result in the relay repeatedly closing circuit correctly. Next to pull the starter motor unless someone says that's not the problem.

Starter brush dust can be the ghost in the machine. Left turn signal press. Horn blows. Flash high beam to pass. Four way lights come on, & etc.

Have items 11 (BMW OEM 12 41 1 459 567) and 13 (BMW OEM 12 41 1 459 297) handy. A place like EME in Colorado might have it in kit form for less.

EME part number BMW-STRK007TK, currently selling for US$32.00
I've had K starters go for years further with just a brake parts cleaner or contact cleaner hose-out and new brushes.

Thanks Two Wheels, I've postponed the inevitable tear down for a day. But your comment about starter brush dust and ghost fits with what I've heard before. I will post my results. Thanks for the suggestion of EME.

jjefferies wrote:Wanted to ask if anyone has put together a check list of steps to clean the starter and any other relevant parts.

There's a starter motor cleaning tutorial on the site's Tech Page.

Before you strip the starter motor, be sure to mark which way round the end caps fit onto the body. If you don't and you get it wrong, it will try and rotate backwards. A scratch or sharpie mark underneath between the mounting tabs is a good place; out of sight when refitted.

Dai wrote:Before you strip the starter motor, be sure to mark which way round the end caps fit onto the body. If you don't and you get it wrong, it will try and rotate backwards. A scratch or sharpie mark underneath between the mounting tabs is a good place; out of sight when refitted.

Thanks, that's a very useful tip.

Pulled the starter motor and cleaned it. Didn't find anything obviously wrong. Put the starter back in and using jumper cables tried firing the bike up with the old battery out. Got the bike to start up but after a short run halted it and then tried restarting. The battery I was using didn't have enough power to handle jumper cables and start a second time. So changed battery and it appears to be working correctly. Next step is to replace two batteries and then I'll get the real answer.

It may just be that the battery was too far gone to  handle the initial problem, be recharged and go again. Despite the indicators from the battery tender(s) signals. So I'm going to be looking at a change in batteries.

Thanks for the good advice will repost if there is anything further to learn.

BTW, the local auto shops are selling batteries of the appropriate size with 325 CCA. I'm wondering if that is good enough or should I be heading out to a bike shop? Any idea of what the desired or minimal CCA is?

That looks fine. Full list here, post 4:

http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=15052.0

325 CCA is fine.

Well I purchased and installed the battery from Sierra BMW that Duck pointed me to and took the bike outside to try it on the center stand. Cranked up beautifully and ran it up to 3k  until I hit the front brake and the d*mn think stopped. Tried to start it again but it wouldn't just made weird little sounds. Turned the key to off and back on and it would try to crank but nada and after a couple of sounds the voltage dropped to 8 volts. I turned the key off and back on and retried a few times. Finally it cranked and ran up very nicely. But when I stopped it, turned key off, it would make those silly sounds and I had to try turning the key off and back on a number of times and then it would crank and run nicely at 3K. Couldn't get it to stop due to the front brake being pulled though. I'm going through the circuit diagrams. Anyone got suggestions on where to look or what to look for?

thanks
J.

Video with silly sounds please?

Dai wrote:Video with silly sounds please?

Duh, and I have issues with just posting photos. Will try tomorrow after a good night's sleep. But I have continued to experiment. And have found that if I turn the beast on (just  the battery, i.e. no charging devices) the headlight and running tail light will show and all the instrument lights (oil pressure, alternator, throttle advance) show. This is before hitting the start button. If I grab the front brake handle at this point all the lights mentioned turn off. And the brake stop light does not light up. The running tail light also goes out. The voltage at the battery remains at 12.x volts but voltage at my light takeoff drops to 7-8 volts.

If I just run the standard startup scenario without grabbing the front brake handle, I get loss of voltage i.e. the lights dim, I get the minor noises I mentioned but no start. Something in the chain of relays seems to have changed.

And the puzzle continues.
thanks for looking at this
J.

You also have a current instrument cluster thread/s. From those l gather you have removed the cluster and bolted it back on. I think you have also recently removed the right foot peg plate, and bolted it back on. It's possible that for example a positive brake wire was pinched when tightening the bolts. Could be the cluster bracket. There have been a few cases in the past where the positive brake wire behind the foot peg plate was not clear of the plate before the plate was bolted back on, causing a short when the brake is applied. Or the cluster bracket, or something close to the handlebar. 

This could explain all the problems in your current threads, the drunken behaviour of the speedo needle, the wonky indicator behaviour, the stalling, the starter relay jamming, the battery draining problem, and the gear indicator faults. The voltage getting pulled down by a short could be making all these things go wonky. I think it would be worth looking at this possibility before opening up the instrument cluster.

daveyson wrote:You also have a current instrument cluster thread/s. From those l gather you have removed the cluster and bolted it back on. I think you have also recently removed the right foot peg plate, and bolted it back on...

Hi Daveyson, sorry for the confusion. There are two projects. I'm resurrecting a K75S that was left in a shop for over 10 years. That one involves the instrument pod/cluster issues. And I've found a possible replacement for the instrument pod which has the minor problem that the speedometer needle is a couple of degrees or mph below where it should be. Dai has suggested a possible cause and I've not yet had time to test and implement the suggested fix.  This is the orange (Marakesh Red) bike.

The other project is my K75C (Silver) which has been running fine for the past several years (65K miles) but has developed classic starter gremlin ghost issues. I took the starter out, cleaned it and re-installed it. But there is a concern that the battery was damaged in the initial damage. So I've located a replacement (Duck gave a good lead to a decent replacement at a reasonable price). But now I'm running into other issues that may be damages that occurred in the initial starter motor failure. But I don't remember removing the right foot peg of either machine but will check that.

thanks
J.

A poor starter earth doesn't shorten the circuit, at worst it's an open circuit. That shouldn't drain the battery, a short would though. Some of your symptoms sound like a starter motor problem, but that shouldn't be pulling the volts down while riding, a short would though.

Pulling the front brake lever causes the lights to cut out, that's a problem. I'm thinking there might be a short in this circuit. Do the lights come back on when you release the front brake lever?

I would disconnect the battery negative lead from the battery and check the amps. With ignition on, engine off, check the amps, check again with the front brake applied, check again with it released. Then repeat for the rear brake.

daveyson wrote:A poor starter earth doesn't shorten the circuit, at worst it's an open circuit. That shouldn't drain the battery, a short would though. Some of your symptoms sound like a starter motor problem, but that shouldn't be pulling the volts down while riding, a short would though.

Pulling the front brake lever causes the lights to cut out, that's a problem. I'm thinking there might be a short in this circuit. Do the lights come back on when you release the front brake lever?

I would disconnect the battery negative lead from the battery and check the amps. With ignition on, engine off, check the amps, check again with the front brake applied, check again with it released. Then repeat for the rear brake.

Hello daveyson, apologies for the slowness in response. But this is one of several projects and believe it or not it's cold out there in the garage. Anyway:

1. Hitting either the front or rear brakes has the same effect, the lights all go out and turn back on when the brake, front or rear, is released.
Per your suggestion I disconnected the negative lead from the battery at the point where it is bolted to the engine and inserted my multi-meter:
Situation                                                                       Voltage(battery + to ground)       Amperage
A. ignition off, no used power other than clock                 12.67V                                          .64milli-amps
B. Ignition on - motor not running                                      12.27V                                     3.24 Amps
C. Ignition on - motor not running front brake applied      12.50V                                      .56 Amps
D. Ignition on - motor not running, rear brake applied      12.54                                        .56 Amps

With power on but not running the headlight is the main draw. I also checked the turn signals and they
respond as does the headlight. I did note that the "RED" light indicating the check of the brake/running
lights is slow to come back on after the brakes are release. And I as I noted the voltage off the battery
is around 12.74 volts with no load other than the clock. Clock also goes out.
Addendum: I should add that the starter no longer starts or even makes noise whereas before it was.
I do hear what I think is the fuel pump making sounds.

Does this suggest anything to Daveyson or anyone else?

thanks for looking
J.

jjefferies wrote:

daveyson wrote:A poor starter earth doesn't shorten the circuit, at worst it's an open circuit. That shouldn't drain the battery, a short would though. Some of your symptoms sound like a starter motor problem, but that shouldn't be pulling the volts down while riding, a short would though.

Pulling the front brake lever causes the lights to cut out, that's a problem. I'm thinking there might be a short in this circuit. Do the lights come back on when you release the front brake lever?

I would disconnect the battery negative lead from the battery and check the amps. With ignition on, engine off, check the amps, check again with the front brake applied, check again with it released. Then repeat for the rear brake.

Hello daveyson, apologies for the slowness in response. But this is one of several projects and believe it or not it's cold out there in the garage. Anyway:

1. Hitting either the front or rear brakes has the same effect, the lights all go out and turn back on when the brake, front or rear, is released.
Per your suggestion I disconnected the negative lead from the battery at the point where it is bolted to the engine and inserted my multi-meter:
Situation                                                                       Voltage(battery + to ground)       Amperage
A. ignition off, no used power other than clock                 12.67V                                          .64milli-amps
B. Ignition on - motor not running                                      12.27V                                     3.24 Amps
C. Ignition on - motor not running front brake applied      12.50V                                      .56 Amps
D. Ignition on - motor not running, rear brake applied      12.54                                        .56 Amps

With power on but not running the headlight is the main draw. I also checked the turn signals and they
respond as does the headlight. I did note that the "RED" light indicating the check of the brake/running
lights is slow to come back on after the brakes are release. And I as I noted the voltage off the battery
is around 12.74 volts with no load other than the clock. Clock also goes out.
Addendum: I should add that the starter no longer starts or even makes noise whereas before it was.
I do hear what I think is the fuel pump making sounds.

Does this suggest anything to Daveyson or anyone else?

thanks for looking
J.

Clock going out is interesting, it's a permanently live circuit. 

Could there be an alternator issue, as in regulator which also has the brushes. I have bought brand new ones for about €10, not an expensive fix and very easy to do.

Ok so the problem is even worse now, with a total failure somewhere in the starting circuit. Maybe there's a poor connection somewhere that's still good enough for the running lights, but adding the brake light is the straw that brakes the camel's back. 

One thing I remember when I got my brick on the road was that it had a tiny tiny earth wire from the battery negative post to the gearbox, I replaced it with a normal looking one. One quick way to check, if you have jumper leads, run a lead from battery negative to a good frame earth, and see if the problem goes away.

92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:
Clock going out is interesting, it's a permanently live circuit. 

Olaf, I stand corrected. After your post I went and double checked the clock. It does not go out. My error. Need more sleep.

daveyson wrote:One thing I remember when I got my brick on the road was that it had a tiny tiny earth wire from the battery negative post to the gearbox, I replaced it with a normal looking one. One quick way to check, if you have jumper leads, run a lead from battery negative to a good frame earth, and see if the problem goes away.

Wowza Daveyson, I tried that and DAMN she fired up and ran like a CHAMP. Oh, but in order to do that I had to disconnect the underseat connector and then plug it back in with the computer box outside of its usual location. So I tried it again without the additional ground. And she fired up again. Oh Oh, so which is it, the connector or the ground. Once in the misty past I had a ghost issue with that connector on my Red bike. The solution then was to tweak each spade connector by a couple of degrees.  So before reassembling the whole I sprayed contact cleaner on the connector and spades and reassembled it again. Like I hadn't done it before. And now it fires up like it should. I do feel like an idiot but out of an abundance of caution I will replace the ground wire and tweak the spades. Hopefully that will fix this problem.

thanks again for your suggestions.
J.

jjefferies wrote:

Wowza Daveyson, I tried that and DAMN she fired up and ran like a CHAMP. Oh, but in order to do that I had to disconnect the underseat connector and then plug it back in with the computer box outside of its usual location. So I tried it again without the additional ground. And she fired up again. Oh Oh, so which is it, the connector or the ground.

And now it fires up like it should. I do feel like an idiot but out of an abundance of caution I will replace the ground wire and tweak the spades. Hopefully that will fix this problem.

Agree, I think that will fix the problem. Unplugging the fuel injection computer shouldn't prevent the starter from turning. Instead of saying I feel like an idiot, you should be saying wow I fixed it, I've just earned myself a whiskey.

I reckon I'll pour a short single malt for myself in celebration. Slàinte mhath.

I'm easily convinced, I'll have a whiskey too, for the forum. How good is the forum, that a brick rider from some small town somewhere, can chew the fat with other brick riders, at just about any other points on the planet.

All glory to the forum. I thank you guys and I'll have a Dr. Pepper if you please.

Have a look at the gearbox end of the original cable and check the gearbox threaded spigot too. I'm guessing corrosion (aluminium oxide), if only because I've seen it on a K and cleaning it up improved starter performance. I can't remember now whether it was one of my bikes or someone else's K I was working on.

daveyson wrote:I'm easily convinced, I'll have a whiskey too, for the forum. How good is the forum, that a brick rider from some small town somewhere, can chew the fat with other brick riders, at just about any other points on the planet.

It takes a village to raise a K.

Glad for you! This K forum is really a great source of knowledge and experience, and most of all, the willingness and patience to help is amazing. 

3 Cheers.

Dai wrote:Have a look at the gearbox end of the original cable and check the gearbox threaded spigot too. I'm guessing corrosion (aluminium oxide), if only because I've seen it on a K and cleaning it up improved starter performance. I can't remember now whether it was one of my bikes or someone else's K I was working on.

Dai, this sounds interesting. But I'm concerned I'm misinterpreting. But you are speaking of the ground cable (from the negative end of the battery) to where it attaches to the engine, Right?

BTW, I went to the hardware store this morning and picked up a couple of appropriate sized terminals and will make up a new grounding cable with the terminals soldered to the cable.

I ain't gonna have no more bad cables. Bad Cable BAD! BAD!

thanks
J.

The earth cable also attaches - besides the negative of the battery - to the left hand side of the gearbox, not to the engine.

Any upgrade over BMW's original - stingy - gauge wire will be an improvement.

Two Wheels Better wrote: Any upgrade over BMW's original - stingy - gauge wire will be an improvement.

Well, just measured the wire I'm intending to use before soldering it to the terminal. It is stranded, 5 mm in diameter, copper. The terminal isn't copper but does seem to have been prepped for soldering.

J.

The sheath over the earth cable on Big Block measures 9mm which is 00 gauge. Given the thickness of the sheath that might make it 0 gauge. 5mm strand is somewhere between 4 & 5 gauge. This should be adequate. I don't have a factory earth strap handy to measure it.

While you're at it, here's another thing to consider, including a battery isolator switch. That way if the starter relay gets stuck on again, you just turn the switch off and your bike stops. It's only a few dollars and you can turn it off while you're still on the seat. I bolted one to the gearbox lug for the earth strap, then bolted the earth strap to the switch, as in the photo, it's the green knob.

daveyson wrote:...as in the photo, it's the green knob.

Who's the green knob? 

Yeah, I'm having problems putting the photo on, I think it's too big. I'll probably try again later.

There's a photo of it here:
https://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=12430.msg123237#msg123237

Hi, got distracted with another problem. But the idea of a disconnect is sensible to me. But the links to the battery isolator are expired. The ones I was able to find are Chinese. Could it be that Trump has already moved to block Chinese products? Anyway I think I will need three.  Suggestions as to which ones are most convenient or better appreciated.

J.

One option, go to your local hardware shop or auto shop, and you will probably have three in your hands for small money, in twenty minutes, I'll guess.

Battery cutoff-disconnect-isolator switch.

Laitch, thanks but all the ones from TEMU are "Sold Out". The same exact item picture on Amazon is x3 the cost and I almost couldn't get out of the Amazon website. They were going to get my business and shipping costs NO MATTER. I think we're now seeing the initial results of Trump's opening moves here in the US. I'll keep looking but the Temu items look like what I would want. But it was a little daunting when I couldn't get free of Amazon.

thanks and best regards. I will keep looking or even make my own if forced to.

J.
Wowser, found the same thing on ebay. They promise to get it to me by ?March 26?
Didn't notice that until I hit the buy button. Oh well. fun and games.

jjefferies wrote:Dai, this sounds interesting. But I'm concerned I'm misinterpreting. But you are speaking of the ground cable (from the negative end of the battery) to where it attaches to the engine, Right?

Yep