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Inge K.


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Ì use double glasses when I read my analogue meter Very Happy .
Some of the deal was also to test out the difference between used and unused cables.

Way back when only copper was used for these ones, it was said that one of the reasons to change them after this and that amount of km`s, that the resistance in the copper did rise over time due to the high voltage passing.

But have never tested if this was true, or just hear say.

On the other hand, my multimeter also isn`t a expensive one, so I don`t know how accurate the readings is.

.........OK, next test.....#4....measured with different meters.

    

MT350Explorer

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I tell you what Inge, you send me those nice, shiny new leads and I'll send you my old, broken burned, buthcehered and blackened ones. We can then test each others leads on our respective meters and take the average of the two readings to gain an accurate result. Of course I would quite understand that you would then prefer to keep my leads and their superior 'higher' rsistance! Twisted Evil.
Just kidding
Cheers!
Dave


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1991 K100 RS 16 valve
    

Inge K.

Inge K.
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Thank you very much for your kind offer, Dave........
but I`ve allready got cables similar to the quality of yours on my K11.

Now I have measured cable #4 with 5 different meters and the difference is 20 ohm.....exept my oldest analogue one which have a very rough scale....
was just below the 6K mark.....~5950 (double glasses woudn`t function on this one.

16 valve vibration - advice on priorities please - Page 2 Hpim0916

My conclusion would be that earlier values is pretty accurate,......
a bit fun can`t remember that I ever have compared all my different meters.


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

54Back to top Go down   16 valve vibration - advice on priorities please - Page 2 Empty Spark Plug Leads and Coils Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:34 pm

K-BIKE

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I don't believe the resistance of copper leads can rise just due to high voltage passing but often copper leads have carbon resistors in the plug caps. The carbon resistors however I can envisage those breaking down and failing over time. If the leads are subject to lots of unrestrained vibration so the lead is
oscillating back and forth that can definitely cause the copper strands
to break one by one until when the last strand breaks it then starts arcing between
the broken ends inside the insulation but my guess is that would be a
very rare occurrence, more likely on a car where the leads often dangle over the engine down to the spark plugs.

The biggest enemy of ignition leads is often their owners who yank them off violently pulling partly on the lead and straining the connection to the plug cap, the genuine K caps have a neat tab on top which can be gripped with pliers allowing a direct pull off without straining the lead.

A common problem we see here on the list is people buy bikes where someone has changed the plugs and screwed new ones in with no little bobbins on the top of the plug just the bare thread so the spark has to jump across inside the plug cap to earth out via the spark plug. That puts an unnecessary strain on the ignition system insulation and leads to erosion inside the plug cap. Never run the ignition when turning over the bike on the starter without plugs in because that puts a huge electrical stress on the coils and can cause them to break down inside. If you have the plugs out and want to turn the bike over pull the low voltage supply off the coils first to stop them generating the high voltage pulse (don't forget to reconnect them Embarassed BTDT)

In general our ignition systems work well what tends to fail is the supply to them so that they stop getting fed volts so cannot produce any. Treatment of every connection in the bike with DeoxIT will pay dividends especially if the full Gold followed by Shield is done and avoid putting dielectric grease (silicone) on any electrical connector except inside the spark plug cap to help stop the rubber moisture shield inside bonding to the clean spark plug ceramic of a new plug.

Huge numbers of ignition leads get changed on cars and bikes when they don't need to be making huge amounts of dosh for the people in the parts business. When measuring resistance in leads of identical length a few tens of ohms variation is nothing to worry about but one thing to beware of in K75 plug leads is that they have a spark gap built in so when you measure them they will read infinite resistance when measured.
Regards,
K-BIKE

    

Inge K.

Inge K.
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@MT350Explorer wrote:Just thought - the resisitance on the 4 v is in the plugs not the caps like the 2 v so I could get some bog standard HT leads and swap them out and look for improvement? Is this right?

It would be likely that I`m the source for that wrong info, and I feel sorry about that. Embarassed

After all this fiddlin with the 4V cables this evening, I did take my reading glasses on
and did examine them a bit in detail.
And they got exactly the same resistors as the 2V cables, 5K ohm at the cap and 1K ohm at the coil end.

The difference between them is the connector at the coil end.


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

charlie99

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dave ...whilst you getting some more bits to fix the lead ...have a look around for a cheapie digital meter ...these days you can buy them for about $10 aussie ...(6 pounds maybe )

it would be verry usefull on things that have a static resistance ....meaning it wont change much ...analogue meters are great for looking at something that varies, like in use ...

even the cheep digital meters are reasonbly accurate

just a suggestion


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O16 valve vibration - advice on priorities please - Page 2 Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

K-BIKE

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But don't throw your analogue meter away because they are great for reading out ABS fault codes if you have any. A good miniature DVM is great to put into the tail section since it takes up very little room and can really help with a breakdown.
Regards,
K-BIKE

    

MT350Explorer

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Cheers Guys,
Yeah I bought the meter for ABS troubleshooting and it has been useful for that although I find that most times a reset sorts the flashing lights and it is simply the 'brain' being a bit sensitive.

I have a feeling that my electrical trouble shooting competence will neccasarily grow with this bike given its relative complexity so will probably supplement my meter collection with a digital one somewhere down the line!

Cheers Very Happy
Dave


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1991 K100 RS 16 valve
    

ReneZ

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Dave and all, one of the changes through the years was that the original cables with the resistance in the caps and used with a standard spark plug were replaced by cables without resistance, which then had to be used with spark plugs with a resistance build in (identified with an 'R' in the part identification). If you look at the ignition system page in realoem.com it'll show you the part number of the 'ignition wire' but also the plug it is intended to be used with so you can see the combination. In the end it is important that the overall resistance is correct. So if you make your own cables and use caps without the resistance make sure you use plugs that do, or the other way around.


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Greetings from Florida! Having a 'new' K  :cyclops:    Surprised-o: 

Rene


BMW K100 - 1985 (0030029) 16 valve vibration - advice on priorities please - Page 2 Rain
BMW K1200GT - 2003 (ZK01223)
    

Two Wheels Better

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5K ohms (5000 ohms) is the resistance. NGK sell an ideal cap with non-stud terminal (like OEM) that I use successfully on my 8V. I rode down to my local auto parts shop, Repco, and bought generic 8mm silicone leads of the approximate length and snipped them to equal the OEM length (cost was about $6 to $8 per lead), screwed on the NGK caps, and pressed them onto the plugs and into the coils. VD05F is the part number and I paid about $5 per cap. Result, a high quality lead set (in blue) for less than $50. Too easy.

Here's a link to what the caps look like:

http://www.gsparkplug.com/shop/ngk-vd05f-blac.html


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1970 R60/5, OZ '77 R75/7-R100, '85 K100'87 K75C, OZ '87 K100RS, '93 K11-K12 Big Block, '93 K1100RS, '95 R100-Mystic, '96 K1100RS, '98 K1200RS, '00 K1200RS, '02 K1200RS, '03 K1200GT, '04 R1150R'04 R1150RT, '05 K1200S, '06 K1200R, '07 K1200R, '09 K1300GT & 2013 R1200RT-Polizei  - Beemers owned still or sold.

~We all believe what we want to believe in - Rob Dickinson
    

Inge K.

Inge K.
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@ReneZ wrote:Dave and all, one of the changes through the years was that the original cables with the resistance in the caps and used with a standard spark plug were replaced by cables without resistance, which then had to be used with spark plugs with a resistance build in (identified with an 'R' in the part identification). If you look at the ignition system page in realoem.com it'll show you the part number of the 'ignition wire' but also the plug it is intended to be used with so you can see the combination. In the end it is important that the overall resistance is correct. So if you make your own cables and use caps without the resistance make sure you use plugs that do, or the other way around.

Agree with this when speaking about 2V`s.

Way back I did read somewhere, that 4V`s didn`t need resistance cables since
R plugs where used.
And that did make sense to me, since caps and plugs have the same resistance....
no further investigation needed.

So I was quite surprised when measuring the cables for a 4V yesterday.

Conclusion is that the 4V`s using both resistance wires and plugs.
4V`s also have other coils, with less resistance both primary and secondary.

And since this thread is about a 4V........................


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

ReneZ

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And that 4V had the right cable, right? Very Happy

Advise still stands; if you make your own cables make sure you duplicate the overall resistance as original.


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Greetings from Florida! Having a 'new' K  :cyclops:    Surprised-o: 

Rene


BMW K100 - 1985 (0030029) 16 valve vibration - advice on priorities please - Page 2 Rain
BMW K1200GT - 2003 (ZK01223)
    

Inge K.

Inge K.
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@ReneZ wrote:And that 4V had the right cable, right? Very Happy

Correct part #, 2V / 4V have different part # due to different connector at coil end. (4V`s got 4mm threads, by judging the connector at the cable end).


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

mike d

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Dave,

When you say are needing timing equipment. Is it like in post 16 of:

http://k100rt.aforumfree.com/t3752-bmw-dial-gauge-extension-part-no-00-2-580

If so I have my own set (as well as having them for the UK BMW Club), which I could let you borrow.

Mike

    

MT350Explorer

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@mike d wrote:Dave,

When you say are needing timing equipment. Is it like in post 16 of:

http://k100rt.aforumfree.com/t3752-bmw-dial-gauge-extension-part-no-00-2-580

If so I have my own set (as well as having them for the UK BMW Club), which I could let you borrow.

Mike

Mike
Thank you, yes that is the kit. It is a very generous offer, thank you. I will PM you.
Cheers
Dave


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1991 K100 RS 16 valve
    

MT350Explorer

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Guest in the House wrote:5K ohms (5000 ohms) is the resistance. NGK sell an ideal cap with non-stud terminal (like OEM) that I use successfully on my 8V. I rode down to my local auto parts shop, Repco, and bought generic 8mm silicone leads of the approximate length and snipped them to equal the OEM length (cost was about $6 to $8 per lead), screwed on the NGK caps, and pressed them onto the plugs and into the coils. VD05F is the part number and I paid about $5 per cap. Result, a high quality lead set (in blue) for less than $50. Too easy.

Here's a link to what the caps look like:

http://www.gsparkplug.com/shop/ngk-vd05f-blac.html

Thanks GITH mate, I've looked in to this but it's the coil end that is different on the 16 valve they have what are known as M4 connectors (a kind of latched spike arangement) I believe and I cannot find any of these as components from a UK retailer. I'm erring towards a set from Realm Engineering - £60 for 4.

Cheers
Dave


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1991 K100 RS 16 valve
    

MT350Explorer

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Well I got bored waiting for my new leads to arrive and decided in the interests of advancing scientific understanding -(or at least to kill a spare hour) to take apart a 2 valve and a 4 valve lead..... Very Happy

So here is the 2 valve (right) and 4 valve (left). You can clearly see the difference; the 4 valve is a female connection to a spike in the coil; the 2 valve a more conventional spring fit.

16 valve vibration - advice on priorities please - Page 2 00110

But you just know that they're gonna be the same apart from the coil end plug, right? So I had to find out

16 valve vibration - advice on priorities please - Page 2 210

So the spring clip holds the coil end plug to the body of the lead - other than that the leads are identical I believe and so potentially interchangeable although you have to hack off the insulation on the lead to get at the spring clip

As you can see - bloody well made these leads.
16 valve vibration - advice on priorities please - Page 2 310

Once I understood where the spring clip was located you can cut the insulation off with less damage

16 valve vibration - advice on priorities please - Page 2 410

So after swapping plug ends, taping
the insulator in place and fitting the rubber cover I plugged it on the bike and in the garage in the dry it all worked fine. Might be useful to know if you were in a tight spot with a knackered 4 valve lead as 2
valve leads are more numerous than 4 valve.

Personally I wouldn't
use it as a long term fix - there's enough electricity to kill
you in these wires and I want the best insulation and connections possible.

Now where are those new leads......... Very Happy

Cheers
Dave


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1991 K100 RS 16 valve
    

MT350Explorer

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Well I did the timing yesterday - could have done with a third arm Very Happy but pretty straightfroward really. Really big thanks to Mike for loan of the timing kit

The good news is that the timing was out and now that it's set correctly the vibration has improved - but not gone. No vibes until 3K, gone again at 3500. - i.e normal and an improvement. BUT they do come back at 5K and stay.

So valve clearances and injectors next.

How do you assess an injectors performance? I can remove them on the fuel rail and spray petrol in to a bucket to look for a dribbly one?

Cheers
Dave


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1991 K100 RS 16 valve
    

mike d

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Hi Dave,

Glad the timing gear was of use!

Mike

    

charlie99

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its not just about whether they dribble dave ...its spray pattern ....and ....delivery of fuel .....you would need to activate the injector whilst under pressure ...and measure the actuall volume of fuel through the injector for a given time .....then relate that back to the ratings for the injector i guess ...cant think of the number at this moment .

i think we noticed that some of the input side filters on the injectors had some crap in them ....and thats after the fuel pump and filter in tank ....! ...could certainly affect the flow rates ...

heres a thought ...when next you have your throttle bodies out ...check the intake ports/valves for accumilation of crap ...stuck to the inlet valve stem ,faces and the general port area , this could indicate whether you have had a faulty injector or non sealing valve in the past .....things will change given that you correct those delivery issues .

for us 2 valvers mob we have the luxury of the injectors all hitting a spray into the inlet port whether the valve is opening or not ..which might sound counterintuitive ...in any case it works well and we get what we get as far as fuel economy goes ....but in real time the spray is still atomised and active as the next cycle comes around a few milliseconds later

theres just so many things that will affect the vibes ol mate ....crud in the inlet manifolds throttle bodies and inlet path from the airbox etc and exhaust pipes . overall balence of all that mooving mass of the engine and driveline ..(and all dynamic) the fact that there is a power stroke every half cycle of the crank ...i guess what we're looking for is as best as we can get in terms of even delivery and exhaust ..to balence out the whole 2 rotations of power to the transmission line ...you may even find that with your ignition timing now correct, that over time it may clear some crap from the induction /exhaust lines .

go give her a good right hand throttle frenzied run ol mate with some hitest /premium fuel in her ......dont forget that time of running has an important factor of allowing things to burn off you may not notice a change in 20 ks but certainly 200 ks you will see a change


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O16 valve vibration - advice on priorities please - Page 2 Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

MT350Explorer

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Hi Charlie!

Wise words mate and some good things to think about doing. I often say to myself - just RIDE the bloody thing! But it's probably a personality trait of quite a few of us- the perverse pleasure of a long, dogged and often ultimately fruitless quest (arguably life in a nutshell!). My mental health is not helped by almost 6 weeks of solid, heavy rain when we should be having what passes for summer here - it's bad even by UK standards - meaning too much time mooning around the garage thinking and tinkering and not enough riding! I'll say one thing though, I am learning a lot about the bike and bikes in general!

Cheers
Dave


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1991 K100 RS 16 valve
    

sidecar paul

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Be optimistic Dave, tyres last much longer when you only ride in the rain. 16 valve vibration - advice on priorities please - Page 2 112350


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'84 K100RS (0014643) (owned since '85), 86 K100RS (0018891) with Martello sidecar (built as an outfit in '88),
'51 Vincent (since '67),'72 Montesa Cota (from new), '87 Honda RS125R NF4 (bought 2015) 
....No CARS never ever!
    

73Back to top Go down   16 valve vibration - advice on priorities please - Page 2 Empty Scotland weather Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:12 pm

ReneZ

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Dave, I'm confused; when the weather forecast says it'll rain on the West coast I have rain here. When it says rain on the East coast I have rain here. When it says rain in the South I have rain here, just like when they say It'll rain up North it is raining here. Even when they say it'll only rain in the central belt it's raining here.
I filed a help call with our IT department (our team in Aberdeen) that they were running the wrong program. They have started autumn after spring instead of starting summer..................... Evil or Very Mad


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Greetings from Florida! Having a 'new' K  :cyclops:    Surprised-o: 

Rene


BMW K100 - 1985 (0030029) 16 valve vibration - advice on priorities please - Page 2 Rain
BMW K1200GT - 2003 (ZK01223)
    

charlie99

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raining datsuncogs out here too rene ...most unusuall ...we usually have glorious blue dry sunny days here durring our winter ....

about 3 inches of water in my fairing pockets ......giggles ...


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O16 valve vibration - advice on priorities please - Page 2 Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

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