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1Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Bike will not start for me. Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:49 am

1987k100rt

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Hello all. I hope you can help with my new dilema. I have a 1987 K100rt with 47k miles. I have posted here before and your suggestions have helped me in the past. My bike has gone for a "start on the first or second try" to not starting at all.

Symptoms. Will crank over just fine. Battery is less than 6 months old and has been on tender and has plenty of voltage. The last few times I tried to get it running over the last couple months I had a progresivley harder time getting it started and once it did start it ran very rough below 2000rpm, In fact I had to keep the RPM's up above that to keep it going initially. The first time this symptom arrived I was able to get it running after changing the plugs with new ones, warming it up for quite some time and then took it for a ride and it seemed ok. A few weeks later I started the bike and ran into the same trouble. I was able to get it running after considerable time in starting and still had trouble keeping it from stalling. Had to keep the revs up. Then yesterday I could not get it started at all.

This starting problem occured with and without the choke on.

I changed the plugs out on the first sign of this problem because I have seemed to have problems with plugs fowling in the past but they look ok to me. I changed them anyway and still had trouble getting it running so I do not think that is the problem. I tried hitting the starter with the throttle wide open which will not let the bike start. My guess is that would let fuel build up in the cylnders. I would try a start right after doing this and the bike would almost make a start and then die. My question is, If there is not enough fuel going to the cylnders or not enough fuel pressure, how can I determine that. Is there a way of testing the fuel pressure regulator without taking the bike apart to get to it. All of the fuel hoses have been repalced on this bike, including the ones in the tank along with the filter about a year ago. The crank case breather hose and all vaccumn hoses have been replace. I believe the fuel pressure regulator is original to the bike. I can here the fuel pump working in the tank when trying to start so I dont think that is an issue. What would the symptom be if the Fuel Pressure Regulator was bad.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, James.

    

2Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:22 pm

nino

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Hi James, I propose one simple test of fuel circulation without dismantling all stuff. Turn the key on, put left palm on tank - rail hose and then hit the start button. If you feel fuel circulate through that hose (tank - fuel rail) it means pump send fuel to rail. If not check the pump, filter and hoses

Regards

    

3Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:09 pm

RicK G

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Put a new fuel filter in for starters, I reckon it will go then.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

4Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:28 pm

krambo

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You might want to check out the following somewhat lengthy thread - it details all of the great advice given by the helpful members here that eventually resulted in a positive outcome and I am pleased to report that the old K100 is still running sweetly and functions as intended.

K100 FPR Issues


__________________________________________________
1984 BMW K100RT, 1993 BMW K1100LTIC,1982 Kawasaki KZ1100 Spectre
"Aut viam inveniam aut faciam." Bike will not start for me. Uk-bmw12
http://www.its-personal.net
    

5Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:30 pm

1987k100rt

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Thank you for the advice fellow k bike enthusiasts. I am going to look into the FPR and also the tank and see if I am getting any fuel coming back into it from the return line. Some good advice and ideas here. If anyone else has any ideas please advise. This bike went from starting great reliably everytime to not starting at all over 1 months time. It is a little mind boggling and I am hopping it is a simple and in-expensive fix. The FPR is likely orignal and if it has any kind of rubber inside the diaphram I know what time and fuel will do to that. Just ask my orignal fuel pump housing dampener, oh, you can't because it turned to mush. I am going to check electrical connections and I know I replaced the crankcase breather hose a year or so ago but I will check that too. At this point I cannot get the bike started and running at all so I can try to diagnose the problem. Thanks for any help.

    

6Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:59 pm

charlie99

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yes good thought to test clean and rectify the tank connection ...many of us have experienced similar problems

good luck !


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OBike will not start for me. Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

7Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:48 pm

Ned

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Yes, there are just a few things that are critical for the bike to start. One is the fuel pressure. The pump will deliver much more pressure (flow) needed so the regulator holds it ar around 36psi from memory.

For a cost of a cheap pressure gauge and a few fittings you can check fuel and oil and be confident to move on to other less obvious problems.

I have this interminably in the line (too lazy to take it off ) Smile I guess.

It does a few things... checks my pump and the regulator. A nice test is to see just how long it takes to loose the pressure in the line after the bike is switched off ... in my case many minutes. BTW "fuel gauge" is actually the pressure gauge.

Bike will not start for me. DSC00242


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I reserve the right to voice my opinions on any subject known to man
Ned

05/1986 (K55) K100RS Motorsport (Europe), Production Code: 0503, 110k km, VIN:0140519 (SOLD)
1976 Honda Goldwing GL1000 (naked)
1997 BMW K1200RS red, VIN: WB10544A1VZA22667
    

8Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Bike will not start for me. Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:23 am

RT

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Gee Ned that is so neat, almost looks factory fitted.
Must be nice to know it's all working tho.
RT


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2011 R1200RT
    

9Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:16 am

Ned

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@RT wrote:Gee Ned that is so neat, almost looks factory fitted.
Must be nice to know it's all working tho.
RT

Thanks RT, rest assured that it looks better tucked in. Yes, surprisingly, I cast my on the gauge every time I kick her over. I figure that the gauge is better used on the bike than in my toolbox.

I like an oil pressure gauge as well.


__________________________________________________
I reserve the right to voice my opinions on any subject known to man
Ned

05/1986 (K55) K100RS Motorsport (Europe), Production Code: 0503, 110k km, VIN:0140519 (SOLD)
1976 Honda Goldwing GL1000 (naked)
1997 BMW K1200RS red, VIN: WB10544A1VZA22667
    

10Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:21 am

1987k100rt

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Hello again, Just an update. I still have not been able to start the bike on it's own merits. I did try something that a neighbor mentioned to see if it would eliminate some potential culprits. I used some starting fluid or ether in the air intake by the radiator and tried firing it up. It eventually caught on and ran actually quite well at idle. I tried giving it some throttle and it hesitated and then sputtered and died. I repeated this several times with the same results. Does this narrow the list of potential sources of the non running problem? I do not have a gauge for testing the FPR, is there another method. Thanks again for all your help.

    

11Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:32 pm

ReneZ

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Have you got a bicycle tyre pump, one with a gauge? Just put it on the return from the fuel rail to the FPR and see if it builds up and then lifts. Exact pressure is not that important at the moment.


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Greetings from Florida! Having a 'new' K  :cyclops:    Surprised-o: 

Rene


BMW K100 - 1985 (0030029) Bike will not start for me. Rain
BMW K1200GT - 2003 (ZK01223)
    

12Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:29 pm

RicK G

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This is sounding to me like a possible problem with the ECU not getting the signal from the temp sensor correctly.
Not sure if you are familiar with this critter but the higher the resistance of the sensor the colder the engine. If the sensor is low resistance then the ECU thinks the engine is hot and doesn't supply the right mixture and a cold engine wont start easily on a lean mixture.
There is a violet wire with a green trace on terminal 10 of the ECU plug (not the ECU), measure the resistance from that pin 10 to earth, with a cold engine it should be around 1500 - 2000 ohms.
If the resistance is less than 1000 ohms at room temp then futher testing of the sensor is required but if over then probably not the problem.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

13Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:11 pm

1987k100rt

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@Rick G wrote:This is sounding to me like a possible problem with the ECU not getting the signal from the temp sensor correctly.
Not sure if you are familiar with this critter but the higher the resistance of the sensor the colder the engine. If the sensor is low resistance then the ECU thinks the engine is hot and doesn't supply the right mixture and a cold engine wont start easily on a lean mixture.
There is a violet wire with a green trace on terminal 10 of the ECU plug (not the ECU), measure the resistance from that pin 10 to earth, with a cold engine it should be around 1500 - 2000 ohms.
If the resistance is less than 1000 ohms at room temp then futher testing of the sensor is required but if over then probably not the problem.





Rick. Do I do this check with the bike switched on? or do I need to hit the start button while the bike is cold to check the resistance? Or is this check done with all switches off? I am not much of an electrician. Thanks.

    

14Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:21 pm

1987k100rt

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@ReneZ wrote:Have you got a bicycle tyre pump, one with a gauge? Just put it on the return from the fuel rail to the FPR and see if it builds up and then lifts. Exact pressure is not that important at the moment.



I am going to try and get a pressure gauge that can give me an idea of what we are getting to the rail. Thanks for the ideas.

    

15Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:22 pm

charlie99

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no need to have the ignition on

go to under seat computer ...undo the latch through the tool tray and remove the big multi core connector

holding the connector facing you, probe pin 10 (on the top from the left)

multi meter should be on ohms (10,000 or more ) red probe to the connector ...black wire to the earth on the frame

it should read between 2000 and 3000 ohms .....on a cold engine

hope that helps


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OBike will not start for me. Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

16Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:02 pm

1987k100rt

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@charlie99 wrote:no need to have the ignition on

go to under seat computer ...undo the latch through the tool tray and remove the big multi core connector

holding the connector facing you, probe pin 10 (on the top from the left)

multi meter should be on ohms (10,000 or more ) red probe to the connector ...black wire to the earth on the frame

it should read between 2000 and 3000 ohms .....on a cold engine

hope that helps


Hey forum helpers. I had a neighbor come over with a good multimeter. We measured number 10 pin with positive lead and negative went to ground or earth. We measured several times and consistently read between 1846 and 1850. We measured all the pins just to make sure and number 10 read the most ohms by far. Does that tell you guys another direction with this problem? My gut says the FPR. I guess I need to invest in a pressure gauge to determine if that is working. The bike ran off of starter fluid until it ran out and any attempt to give it throttle would make it cut out. Some of the ohm numbers that were mentioned earlier were close to my number. Is my number at 1850 ohms an indication of a bad sensor or one on the verge of being bad or is it fine? Another question. The hard starting to no starting problem happened over the course of a month and a half. Does an FPR crap out really quick or does the diaphragm gradually give out? Thanks again for the help.

    

17Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:04 pm

1987k100rt

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@1987k100rt wrote:
@charlie99 wrote:no need to have the ignition on

go to under seat computer ...undo the latch through the tool tray and remove the big multi core connector

holding the connector facing you, probe pin 10 (on the top from the left)

multi meter should be on ohms (10,000 or more ) red probe to the connector ...black wire to the earth on the frame

it should read between 2000 and 3000 ohms .....on a cold engine

hope that helps


Hey forum helpers. I had a neighbor come over with a good multimeter. We measured number 10 pin with positive lead and negative went to ground or earth. We measured several times and consistently read between 1846 and 1850. We measured all the pins just to make sure and number 10 read the most ohms by far. Does that tell you guys another direction with this problem? My gut says the FPR. I guess I need to invest in a pressure gauge to determine if that is working. The bike ran off of starter fluid until it ran out and any attempt to give it throttle would make it cut out. Some of the ohm numbers that were mentioned earlier were close to my number. Is my number at 1850 ohms an indication of a bad sensor or one on the verge of being bad or is it fine? Another question. The hard starting to no starting problem happened over the course of a month and a half. Does an FPR crap out really quick or does the diaphragm gradually give out? Thanks again for the help.



By the way. The engine was cold when testing the resistance. It is in the garage and it is appx 85 degrees F in there tonight. Pretty warm for September.

    

18Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:10 pm

Inge K.

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1850 ohms should correspond with 27oC.


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

19Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:23 pm

RicK G

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@1987k100rt wrote:
@1987k100rt wrote:
@charlie99 wrote:no need to have the ignition on

go to under seat computer ...undo the latch through the tool tray and remove the big multi core connector

holding the connector facing you, probe pin 10 (on the top from the left)

multi meter should be on ohms (10,000 or more ) red probe to the connector ...black wire to the earth on the frame

it should read between 2000 and 3000 ohms .....on a cold engine

hope that helps


Hey forum helpers. I had a neighbor come over with a good multimeter. We measured number 10 pin with positive lead and negative went to ground or earth. We measured several times and consistently read between 1846 and 1850. We measured all the pins just to make sure and number 10 read the most ohms by far. Does that tell you guys another direction with this problem? My gut says the FPR. I guess I need to invest in a pressure gauge to determine if that is working. The bike ran off of starter fluid until it ran out and any attempt to give it throttle would make it cut out. Some of the ohm numbers that were mentioned earlier were close to my number. Is my number at 1850 ohms an indication of a bad sensor or one on the verge of being bad or is it fine? Another question. The hard starting to no starting problem happened over the course of a month and a half. Does an FPR crap out really quick or does the diaphragm gradually give out? Thanks again for the help.



By the way. The engine was cold when testing the resistance. It is in the garage and it is appx 85 degrees F in there tonight. Pretty warm for September.

That resistance is OK & well within limits.
I would now start looking at the FPR.
A basic test of the pump is to disconnect the fuel line from the filter that goes to the top of the pump. Hold your finger on the outlet and turn on the ignition then press the start button (make sure the line is still inside the tank because fuel will squirt everwhere) If the pump is ok there will be a big flow and you probably not be able to hold it back with your finger.
If it does have heaps of pressure (65psi) the pump is OK and test the fuel pressure with the line back in place. The FPR should regulate the pressure to 36psi.
You can test the FPR using air pressure a foot operated tyre pump with a gauge will give you a good indication. Connect it to the line that goes onto the back end of the fuel rail. Take that line of there and connect the pump to it and pump it up and the pressure should be 36psi. it should hold that pressure but will most likely drop off slowly, that's OK.
If it's anything lower than 25 then replace the FPR but if its over 25 then a more accurate test should be done because those cheap pumps can be inacurate.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

20Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:12 am

col

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this way to test fpr is a bit rough but worked for me as i did not have fuel pressure gauge
on the return line after fpr to the tank attach a pair of vice grips restricting flow if it starts and runs it is fpr is dead


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1991 k100lt "the enterprise"
    

21Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:15 am

RicK G

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Yeah there you have it the easy way good on ya Col good thinking.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

22Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:12 am

1987k100rt

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@col wrote:this way to test fpr is a bit rough but worked for me as i did not have fuel pressure gauge
on the return line after fpr to the tank attach a pair of vice grips restricting flow if it starts and runs it is fpr is dead



If the FPR is bad would it matter if you clamped the fuel line before or after the FPR? I have used vice grips on the fuel line right off the back of the fuel rail just to see if a restriction would cause any difference. I tried several times without any luck starting. You are saying that I should clamp the fuel return line after the FPR to tell if the FPR is bad or not. When they go bad do they stay constantly open and hold no pressure? or do they shut down completely and not allow any fuel back into the tank?

    

23Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:17 am

RicK G

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Either but if there is nothing when you clamp the line there it probably the pump. Did you try doing what I suggested by putting your finger across the hose?


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

24Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:20 am

Inge K.

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@1987k100rt wrote: If the FPR is bad would it matter if you clamped the fuel line before or after the FPR? I have used vice grips on the fuel line right off the back of the fuel rail just to see if a restriction would cause any difference.

Doesn`t matter, as long you have the restriction at the rear end of the rail.


@1987k100rt wrote: When they go bad do they stay constantly open and hold no pressure? or do they shut down completely and not allow any fuel back into the tank?

Have seen both, and a broken membran...which flooded cyl. 4.


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

25Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:57 am

1987k100rt

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@Rick G wrote:Either but if there is nothing when you clamp the line there it probably the pump. Did you try doing what I suggested by putting your finger across the hose?

Rick, I have not done this step yet but will soon. had a full tank of gas and need to remove some first. should I be checking to see if there is a restriction at the fuel filter as well? I will check the pump and get back to you all. may be able to do it this weekend. Thanks. any other ideas please let me know. One other question. If the FPR was stuck closed then in theory it would be providing too much pressure and clamping the hose on either side of the FPR would make no difference at all? Is that correct? Thanks again. This forum has been great for helping with the troubleshooting.

    

26Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:07 am

Inge K.

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@1987k100rt wrote: One other question. If the FPR was stuck closed then in theory it would be providing too much pressure and clamping the hose on either side of the FPR would make no difference at all? Is that correct?

Bike will not start for me. 112350


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

27Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:09 am

RicK G

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If the FPR is stuck closed there should be heaps of pressure.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

28Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:18 am

Inge K.

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@Rick G wrote:If the FPR is stuck closed there should be heaps of pressure.

About 4,5 bar, then the pressure relief valve at the pump opens.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

29Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:28 am

1987k100rt

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@Rick G wrote:If the FPR is stuck closed there should be heaps of pressure.



If The FPR is stuck closed and I am able to apply a pressure gauge before the FPR I should see a much higher than 36psi reading correct? I am going to see about looking at both sides of the FPR and inside the tank this weekend. If stuck open the fuel is flowing through the system freely and applying gradual to moderate pressure on the fuel line on the end of the fuel rail will likely produce a start or attempted start? Which I have tried without any success. Maybe we are starting to narrow this problem down. This is a frustrating process but made much better with all of your help.

    

30Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:46 am

1987k100rt

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@Inge K. wrote:1850 ohms should correspond with 27oC.



according to a conversion table 27 degrees celsius is 80.6 degrees fahrenheit which is probably close to what my garage was last night at 8pm. It sounds like that ohm reading may be correct.

    

31Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:09 pm

1987k100rt

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Ok. I have a question that needs clarification. In this forum there is mention of a replacement FPR from Napa auto parts that works for our k bikes #2-1709A or standard #pr-134. I called Napa today about the first part number. They can order it but said the FPR is rated for up to 37 PSI. All the info on the forum says that our BMW FPR's should keep at a constant 36 PSI. Will this part work or do I have to take out a small car loan and buy the BMW FPR? Any thoughts? The guys at napa said that one PSI would not be crucial. I have a feeling everyrhing has to be just right on these bikes or they won't work right. Thanks

    

32Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:28 pm

RicK G

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__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

33Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:56 am

charlie99

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hmm they could be right ....1 psi would make little difference at all given that most of the spring tension will have changed over the last 20 odd years or more i wouldnt think that slightly higher would be a bad thing at all.


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OBike will not start for me. Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

34Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:29 pm

1987k100rt

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Ok forum. Here is an update. I removed the old FPR and had a mechanic where I work do a vaccum test on it and determined it to not hold any pressure. Bought the cross referenced fpr from nappa and installed this evening. Put the essentials back together and it will not start. Now I had this bike running off of starting fluid or ether with the bad fpr in it so I know it will run as long as it is getting some fuel. Or perhaps that was tricking the ecu somehow. Any thoughts where I should look next. As before if I hold the start button down and the throttle wide open it will crank for a few seconds and the system will not let it start. If I release the throttle immediately and hit the starter she fires up for a moment and then dies right out. Is there a fuel relay or any fuse I could be missing? Could it be the fuel pump? I hear It running in the tank. Any help is appreciated thanks

    

35Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:42 pm

Inge K.

Inge K.
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Since you can hear the fuel pump, the relay is OK.
Have you tested the fuel pressure yet?

You said that the problem did came gradually, and pump dampener was turned to goo.
Have you checked the prefilter under the pump?
And how about the filter after the pump?


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

36Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:24 pm

kfilipow

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k87rt, as a follow up to Inge question....Inge is it possible to have adequate pressure but low volume? The pump supplies 65 psi, the regulator reduces to 36 psi all is good, injectors pulse etc. But if the return is clogged, the volume would be reduced and be starving the combustion wouldn't it? Could the return be clogged in the interior tank lines? Just trying to think it through....interesting topic to watch. kf

    

37Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:16 am

K75cster

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I believe a clogged fuel line will increase the fuel pressure at the injectors as it cant get back to the tank quick enough for the fpr valve to regulate it. perhaps this will cause the injectors to strain in opening? But certainly opening the tank and seeing if there is flow back will show if its clogged. use a mirror to shine light in there. dont use a naked flame. If you have not used the bike for some months or just a few little rides then perhaps the fuel is going off, which could be your thinking on the clogging. perhaps a flush of the fuel lines may resolve the issue, it will give you a chance to ensure the lines aren't getting any debris starting to clog the filter or the fpr scum on the injector screens may be a culprit??? just guessing there.


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Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

38Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:44 pm

1987k100rt

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I tried starting the bike again. It would almost breath life and putter out. I did have it running somewhat on starter (ether) fluid again but once you tried to touch the throttle it just died out. I am going to pull off the rest of the fairing and check the fuel lines. I have quick disconnects on the fuel lines to the tank and will check those as well. I am going to go into the tank and check on fuel pump, filter and screen to see if there is any evidence of a problem there. Could the Hall sensor be a possible culprit? Would the bike run off starting fluid if the Hall sensor was bad? What possible systems would be bad or deffective if the bike would run off starting fluid and not under it's own fuel? Thanks again for all the help. I am really looking forward to solving this problem as the weather is really nice for riding right now.

    

39Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:21 pm

Two Wheels Better

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@1987k100rt wrote:Could the Hall sensor be a possible culprit? Would the bike run off starting fluid if the Hall sensor was bad? What possible systems would be bad or defective if the bike would run off starting fluid and not under its own fuel?

The fact that the bike starts on ether suggests it has spark, at least temporarily. It wouldn't if the hall sensor was bad, in the sense that it wouldn't produce a spark and therefore run, even for a moment. The engine needs three things to run: air, fuel and spark, all in sufficient quantities.

Was it OK before you possibly worked on it or did it just suddenly not run? If you worked on it trace it back to what you might have done. It does sound to me as though it's air starvation (a mouse house in your airbox) or fuel starvation.


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1970 R60/5, OZ '77 R75/7-R100, '85 K100'87 K75C, OZ '87 K100RS, '93 K11-K12 Big Block, '93 K1100RS, '95 R100-Mystic, '96 K1100RS, '98 K1200RS, '00 K1200RS, '02 K1200RS, '03 K1200GT, '04 R1150R'04 R1150RT, '05 K1200S, '06 K1200R, '07 K1200R, '09 K1300GT & 2013 R1200RT-Polizei  - Beemers owned still or sold.

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40Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:26 pm

1987k100rt

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@Two Wheels Better wrote:
@1987k100rt wrote:Could the Hall sensor be a possible culprit? Would the bike run off starting fluid if the Hall sensor was bad? What possible systems would be bad or defective if the bike would run off starting fluid and not under its own fuel?

The fact that the bike starts on ether suggests it has spark, at least temporarily. It wouldn't if the hall sensor was bad, in the sense that it wouldn't produce a spark and therefore run, even for a moment. The engine needs three things to run: air, fuel and spark, all in sufficient quantities.

Was it OK before you possibly worked on it or did it just suddenly not run? If you worked on it trace it back to what you might have done. It does sound to me as though it's air starvation (a mouse house in your airbox) or fuel starvation.



I had not done any work on it recently. It gradually got harder to start over a month and a half's time. The last few times I was able to get it started it was very difficult to keep it going until it heated up a bit and then was able to ride it without any problems. The last time I got it running it was very hard to get started and even harder to keep running or even maintain idle. It seems to me that this was a gradual demise and not sudden at all. I intend to get into the tank this weekend and look at all the hoses, filter and pump. If the pump turns out to be the problem, is there a replacement fuel pump that is cheaper than the $400 BMW bosch pump. I am not being cheap about it, it is that the budget is a little thin to keep replacing parts until the problem is fixed. I was able to find a Nappa replacement FPR , is there the same for the fuel pump? Thanks.

    


42Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:30 pm

88

88
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Most of us on here would not regard looking for ways to save money as being cheap. In fact if it were not for that frugal attitiude most of tghe forum members bikes would be on the scrap heap "uneconomical to repair" I believe is the insurance term for it.

Alternative fuel pumps can and have been found. Use the portal tab above and do a forum google search and you'll find lots of suggestions.

Here's another useful ebay uk link originally posted by SidecarPaul who dosen't know if these guys will ship overseas but it is worth enquiring off them.

88


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Bike will not start for me. Ir-log11 88....May contain nuts!Bike will not start for me. Ir-log11

"The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page." - St. Augustine from 1600 years ago & still true!

K1100LT 1992 - AKA Big Red
K1100RS - 1995. AKA Rudolf Von Schmurf (in a million bits)
K1/RS - AKA Titan (unique hybrid by Andreas Esterhammer)
    

43Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:16 pm

1987k100rt

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Ok forum. I have some more info. I went into the tank today. I removed the fuel filter from the equation and just connected straight to the tank. It still would not start. I did notice upon removing the filler cap that it was wet with fuel. Intrigued I removed the entire filler cap and bumped the starter once. Fuel came spraying up from inside the tank. I phoned a friend and he held a flash light while I bumped the starter once. Fuel is coming out of top of the fuel pump housing. It is spraying out between where the aluminum and the plastic meet at the top of the pump. My question is this. Is this a result of the fuel pumps pressure relief valve or does this mean the pump is bad? I have quick disconnects on both fuel lines on the left side of the bike. If this spraying is caused by the pressure relief valve I am going to take the left fairing off and make sure the quick disconnects have not disconnected on their own. Has any one had this happen to them? I bought the expensive metal ones and have not had any problems over the last year. Should I disconnect the end of the fuel line that is going from the pump and connects to the tank to see if the spraying stops? Let me know what you all think. Thanks.

    

44Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:31 pm

Inge K.

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@1987k100rt wrote:My question is this. Is this a result of the fuel pumps pressure relief valve or does this mean the pump is bad?

The pressure relief valve just returns the fuel to the suction side internal.
Does it look like the pump have been opened at the top joint earlier?


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

45Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:37 pm

RicK G

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That means the fuel pump is shagged, no more, fuc^&ed, fritzed, had it, puhing up the daisies. Yes you do need a new one, the rubber seal at the top has dried out. They can be dismantled and fitted with a new seal but you can get a replacement pump from NAPA for about $55.
Don't buy OEM they are 10 times as expensive as they should be. The 2 important things are the volume it will pump and the pressure, well a third one is diameter as it needs to fit but I have used large zip ties pulled up very tight to hold a smaller diameter pump in place.
TIP there are 2 tabs holding the plastic pump vibration damper in place you do not need to undo the 8 small nuts you can see. Use the thumb and fore finget to squeeze the tabs and wriggle the pump up and out.
Or go here for the whole kit http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/BMW-K-Parts-s/60.htm?searching=Y&sort=13&cat=60&show=20&page=4
I use that small pump and the right size damper and plastic surround on my K1100 and it is a very good setup. I can't recommend EME highly enough for those parts or any parts he sells.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

46Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:45 pm

krambo

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@1987k100rt wrote:Ok forum. I have some more info. I went into the tank today. I removed the fuel filter from the equation and just connected straight to the tank. It still would not start. I did notice upon removing the filler cap that it was wet with fuel. Intrigued I removed the entire filler cap and bumped the starter once. Fuel came spraying up from inside the tank. I phoned a friend and he held a flash light while I bumped the starter once. Fuel is coming out of top of the fuel pump housing. It is spraying out between where the aluminum and the plastic meet at the top of the pump. My question is this. Is this a result of the fuel pumps pressure relief valve or does this mean the pump is bad? I have quick disconnects on both fuel lines on the left side of the bike. If this spraying is caused by the pressure relief valve I am going to take the left fairing off and make sure the quick disconnects have not disconnected on their own. Has any one had this happen to them? I bought the expensive metal ones and have not had any problems over the last year. Should I disconnect the end of the fuel line that is going from the pump and connects to the tank to see if the spraying stops? Let me know what you all think. Thanks.

From the description I would say that either the FPR is still in the frame and allowing too much fuel pressure back to the tank or, much more
likely the fuel pump has reached end of life and needs replacing Wink


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1984 BMW K100RT, 1993 BMW K1100LTIC,1982 Kawasaki KZ1100 Spectre
"Aut viam inveniam aut faciam." Bike will not start for me. Uk-bmw12
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47Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:47 pm

1987k100rt

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I just replaced the FPR with a brand new one last week.

    

48Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:49 pm

krambo

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@1987k100rt wrote:I just replaced the FPR with a brand new one last week.

In that case there is no doubt - the fuel pump is knackered Wink The replacement pump that I used was from PEUGEOT 205 GTi 1.6i 1987-88, it is an exact match - hope that helps. You could try the link below - it looks like the same pump I used but £4.00 more expensive @ £63.00:

K75/K100 Fuel Pump


__________________________________________________
1984 BMW K100RT, 1993 BMW K1100LTIC,1982 Kawasaki KZ1100 Spectre
"Aut viam inveniam aut faciam." Bike will not start for me. Uk-bmw12
http://www.its-personal.net
    

49Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:54 am

1987k100rt

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@krambo wrote:
@1987k100rt wrote:I just replaced the FPR with a brand new one last week.

In that case there is no doubt - the fuel pump is knackered Wink The replacement pump that I used was from PEUGEOT 205 GTi 1.6i 1987-88, it is an exact match - hope that helps. You could try the link below - it looks like the same pump I used but £4.00 more expensive @ £63.00:

K75/K100 Fuel Pump



I am quite confident the Fuel pump is shot due to it's evident overzealous pumping of fuel through the crimped housing at the top of the pump instead of up the outlet fuel hose. I am sourcing and purchasing a replacement as soon as I can and get it installed soon before I miss out on much more of this beautiful Fall riding weather. I will keep you posted of my results and thank you all for your expertise and experience. It is forums like this that help keep these bikes on the road. I am grateful.

    

50Back to top Go down   Bike will not start for me. Empty Re: Bike will not start for me. Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:52 pm

1987k100rt

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Ok forum. We have success. Installed a new Bosch fuel pump this evening. The bike fired up after a few cranks. Has not run in a few months so was a little hesitant. Once she warmed up it seemed to smooth out a bit. I believe the new fuel pump coupled with the new fuel pressure regulator did the trick. I also replaced the fuel filter while in the tank. Now to change the oil and button her back up and ride. I destroyed the old pump looking for the failure point. There was no obvious sign but there was a tiny groove around the plastic pump top that sits into the crimped aluminum housing. It looks as though there may have been an o ring that sealed up this connection point. There is no evidence of a o ring anymore so I cannot say for certain. All I know is that the pump went bad. 25 years was just too much for it I guess. Thank you all for your help and support. Until next time. Which may be sooner than later. Problem solved. Lets ride !

    

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