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51Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:13 am

Ed


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92KK K100LT 193214 wrote:Ed,

Rick Gs step is good but....those 4 screws can be a tight fit.. Cant get them out on the LT. WD40 first.
removed the RT fuel surround last weekend with no grief .

ordered a new fuel filter already , might be here for the weekend .
purchased a new battery today , the existing one has not given any signs of problem , but best to replace whilst we are at it.

due to family commitments (quality family time needed) through the weeknights, I'll be back into the K scene on the weekend.
Keith be sure you allow the same, hope it is progressing well for you all.
I'd like to throw a big thanks to a forum guest for the loan of their 1100LT, to provide t'port to work . I'm lost without my K.
just as a forward  mention , I have been advised this same bike with be up for sale very soon , particulars will be posted when the time comes.

I'm looking forward to following through with a few of the suggestions as the weekend arrives.



Last edited by groverK on Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:48 am; edited 1 time in total

    

52Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:26 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Ed,

Hope you get it all sorted soon. Frustrating times just now. Glad you got the fuel surround off too. My fuel filter on the LT was changed in 2010 just after I got it........wondering now how it was done without taking it off but on the other hand the guy I got to do it is very clever. I have done all subsequent stuff myself.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

53Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:10 am

Ed

Ed
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the weekend is here again , so back into , 
some of the forum boys have offered to put their head in the door for a look - see, 
gave the new battery a full charge last night in readiness for todays  onslaught.
thoughts for today , 
remove fuel filter from outward hose, check for pressure , see what it is delivering.
Steve is bringing a new filter with him , 
Keith is bringing some vital electrical knowledge of which I lack, ie , multi meter know how , should be able to test some of those points of mention from Charlie.
I'll see if the cleanup on connectors comes up to standard or may require some more.
coffees are on the house , sorry no scones. Tracey is busy.


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

54Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:12 am

Ed

Ed
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Well what an afternoon , 
we plucked , pilliged and dug deep into the nethers of K tanks.
the sequence of events, 
Steve turned up with a spare fuel filter ( mine is still in the mail and will be re routed to Steve when I can) , thanks mate.
we fitted that whilst waiting for Keith, 
popped the freshly charged battery in for some good cranking power, it delivered well. ( Yuasa brand )
gave it a kick , no positive response achieved.
Keith arrived soon after, so we ran through some symptoms and possible troubleshooting .
just out of interest I blew on the inward side of the previous filter , some residue fuel came out under pressure , after the first blow it became difficult to blow through.

a re check of connectors was carried out, nothing further to report, we exchanged FIU's between the RT and LT , no change.

Keith , with the assistance from Steve and I, then started on testing voltages.

these are not exact measurements , just what I remember.
battery was running at around 12.66v
FI #4   running at around 11.95 under crank load.

 
the pump is not pumping under cranking power, no noticeable voltage to be read whilst under load.
BUT ,  reads full voltage upon release of the starter button,
outward flow pipe of the filter ( new one ) was disconnected and checked for pressure , it matched the response given by the meter.
press the starter button , and no fuel pressure , release the starter button and fuel pressure is active.

So in essence , 
the physical test on the pump ( ie hand in tank checking the activity) confirms what the meter is reading.
 the pump is working ,but not when it is supposed to. it is activating on release of the starter button , Why is this so?
earthing problems ? relays ? rider breathing too much fumes with cap open ?

time for afternoon tea , Tracey appearing with freshly home baked carrot and walnut bread, Hmmmm, Niiice, 
come on guys , I didn't see anything about baking in the manual.......  a break very much appreciated by all.
back to our investigations , we pulled the FI relay from the RT , and tried it in the LT.
We noticed the relay on the RT has 5 pins , whilst the relay on the LT has just 4 pins , is this right?
any way no difference , so we put them back where they came from.

the afternoon was getting away on us , so just out of curiosity, we reassembled the mechanicals for the RT, which has been sitting since 09'.
a bit of dodgy makeshift starter button rewiring , and the old girl was just wanting to kick over , but didn't.
a bit more K chatter and that is where we left the day.

are there any thoughts or speculations which we should follow up tomorrow, 
Sorry Rossko , Tracey said she only bakes scones when we go camping.

no resolve as yet , but a very educational and enjoyable afternoon had by all.


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

55Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:25 am

rosskko

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I started reading and thought it would have made a fun day out.
Glad I didn't come now.
Only bakes scones while camping! Get a new one. Trade her in.
If I ever make it to your place I am bringing my tent.
Hey Mrs groverK. I am camping. Scones. Now.
unless she is busy then that is ok.


__________________________________________________
1986 K100RT VIN 0093801K100RT with summer fairing for a northern visitor

Basic/2 6308802K100CJ  05/1988

K1100RS 0194321
    

56Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:50 am

Ed

Ed
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next time Rossko ,
I would have baked them myself you know problem starting - Page 2 652573 
 it must have been good , the dog didn't even get a crumb.

a BIG thanks to Steve and Keith for their valued support.. and assistance, well done guys. 
Rick , we followed Berts jet-tronic flow chart,and we are investigating relays at this stage.


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

57Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:28 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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I keep thinking back to the problem I had on the LT early last year. The help I got in sorting it sort of led to the Irish Eccentrics.

All was a puzzle meaning I had to go at everything just like you have done and was solved when I swapped the ECU located up at the headstock under the fuel tank. It came out a lot easier than expected, it can be manoeuvred out backwards despite all the ABS etc etc wiring. This solved the problem. I never knew whether it was a connection or what but it solved it. If you have a spare bike there it might be worth a try. I only say might because my starter was not doing the business either, but the LT went sweet after the swap.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

58Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:36 am

K75cster

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Ed I cant see a diagram in here that shows where the lsr is, on the ibmwr site it is written in as from right to left as horn relay, load shed relay, lowbeam relay and full left fuel relay, so will ferret around and see if I have another load shed relay, an ecu and a r/h switch block for the rt, so I can bring all with me, will have to await Emily's return tomorrow as she is with her nana at the Mo they went to the relay for life event at Cessnock tonight. She has sent me a text indicating she had her poster signed and appears to have had agreta time there. Perhaps after we visit Michelle in hospital we can drop by and see what can be done.


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

59Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:48 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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I suspect its easier to swap the ECU than the right hand switch unit. ......but you could just disconnect the rh switch connectors under the tank and connect in the new one just to check it. Just a thought. But of course if someone is busy baking simnel cake and gingerbread then it makes for an enjoyable day.

I have quite a few relays under the tank and took each out to check the connections etc just after I bought the RT. Three have same references and appear interchangeable. The odd ones are the starter and load shed relays which are bigger.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

60Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:05 am

K75cster

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G'Day 92kk, the r/h switch block is for the rt Ed has as a spare. i think I have enough bits from my parts bike to make it a runner as well. The ignition ecu and the load shed relay are for Ed's lt, the blue one he rides every day. crossing fingers we have a win tomorrow.


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

61Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:07 am

RicK G

RicK G
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admin
Here tizproblem starting - Page 2 Abs_k110
I think yours is ABS Ed


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

62Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:22 am

Inge K.

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But a 2V ABS, and not a 4V ABS....


problem starting - Page 2 Relaer10


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

63Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:15 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Its an annoying process and I was sure glad when I had mine sorted out. It sounds like you have everything needed and also the patience/food supply to keep at it. Be very interested in the outcome.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

64Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:19 pm

Ed

Ed
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back into it again this morning, I'll concentrate on the relay box first .
do a bit of swapping around , I'll post some pics of the relay boxes as well just to show what both bikes have inside, they are different configurations.
at some stage I'll pick up some extra fuel line ,the existing shorter lengths are proving time consuming when moving the tanks.

process of elimination will continue to the ECU I would expect.

I'm still enjoying the task at hand , with help from the forum. thanks all.
Rossko , I'm not sure whats for morning tea today? I'm sure it will be good.


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

65Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:23 pm

Ed

Ed
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Inge , what is the ( blue) relay in the bottom front left corner?


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

66Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:28 pm

Inge K.

Inge K.
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ABS main power....the smaller blue relay is for one of the warning lamps.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

67Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:39 pm

Ed

Ed
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Thanks Inge, didn't want to be guessing, it can get you into trouble at times.


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

68Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:51 pm

Ed

Ed
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the LT relay box.

problem starting - Page 2 00210


the RT box

problem starting - Page 2 00810

the load shed relay , prior to a quick brush over with dry WET'n'DRY.
I'll give it a quick squirt with "de" before reinstalling and trying ignition.

problem starting - Page 2 01111


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

69Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:59 pm

charlie99

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question ....you don't have an earthing issue do you ed ?
might be a good idea to test the earth cable going to the pump    and to the battery from the frame connections ?

I also have a memory of a few folks on here having to put a lead from the starter motor fixing bolt to the earth as well ....( in case of some slightly high resistance to the brushes ....not immediately apparent when cranking ...but could affect the load shed relay )

you should have opened that relay mate .... to check - clean up the contacts


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%Oproblem starting - Page 2 Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

70Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:22 pm

Ed

Ed
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opened it

problem starting - Page 2 Lsr_re10

problem starting - Page 2 Lsr_re11


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

71Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:55 pm

K75cster

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Thinking back through yesterdays testing, we had voltage at the injectors after the button was pressed not during, same with the pump on the meter, and same with the thumb test over the filter outlet tube, as soon as we took our thumb off the starter it pressurised and spurted but not whilst the button was pressed, is there anything else to look at apart from the lsr???Ed has changed the starter with no change in behaviour.


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

72Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:33 am

charlie99

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its pretty strange behaviour keith

just trying to think that through .....

almost like there is a big voltage drop during the starter motor run event

have we thought to measure the voltage through the ignition switch as start is happening ...or more likely at the ignition switch connectors to the loom ???

have you tried it with head lights on during starting ? to check that the lsr is operating correctly ...and that the voltage drop isn't happening through the ign switch

I would be changing fuse number 6 in any case ...we have heard stories of them being partially working

in fact as we tried to start albys tug ,,,the fuel pump fuse blew (after sitting for a couple of weeks )( I have a recollection of that bike having a different fuel pump in it ,,,and likely to draw more current than normal ...)
hope that helps


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%Oproblem starting - Page 2 Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

73Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:40 am

K75cster

K75cster
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Righto Charlie Fuse 6 and check headlight goes out when starter pressed.
I might add an earth strap to the starter to be sure its ok.
Ed tried to return pm but it gets stuck in the outbox and wont send so here is reply::Yep have it in the bag, Do you want me to add the rest of the r/h equipement such as the throttle and brake? this wind is shoking


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

74Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:43 am

charlie99

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shoot keith im confused

sorry mate ....to use the words of some one far more intelligent "please explain ?"


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%Oproblem starting - Page 2 Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

75Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:18 am

charlie99

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thanks for the pic ed .....but cant tell from that pic .....but looks like the relay is welded shut .....unless you can see some airgap in between the contacts ....sorry mate cant tell, but do the headlights on check


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%Oproblem starting - Page 2 Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

76Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:38 am

Ed

Ed
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sorry guys , been at some other work for a moment.
Yes , lights dip whilst pressing the starter button , thought to check it earlier.
cleaned up the earth under the tank , some crud there , but even on cleaning and spraying , no difference .
if you leave it for a while , first attempt is an almost kick over , any subsequent attempt is just a spin of the starter, simulating flooding .but is actually starving.
will have a look at fuses now.

getting tight on the race guys , four laps left, and tight as, holden and ford, ford and holden ,  gooooo.........


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

77Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:20 am

Ed

Ed
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ohhhh welll.. thats another race over,  next year I suppose.

so I've checked the fuses , all good , nothing out of place there, still almost starting on residual fuel from the last attempt , then nothing after that.
also, Charlie I found easy movement and return on the relay plate, nothing appeared fused together.

problem starting - Page 2 Lsr_re12

Keith and I will tinker a bit more later,
 intend to replace the RH switch harness, to bypass the problem at post #25.
apparently the burnt wire (blue) is the headlight , which partially fused with the brown ? wire , not sure where that one goes.
if this has affected the headlight , would it also affect the LSR( which appears normal)

Keith I was talking with Steve this morning, about the relays in each box , 
it doesn't appear the RT LSR will fit as it is much larger in its casing size.

Not the result I 'd hoped for on the Mountain , but a damn tight finish , would have been bloody hot down there, good to be in the comfort of home watching it.



Last edited by groverK on Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:56 am; edited 2 times in total


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

78Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:26 am

K75cster

K75cster
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Charlie, One of the early changes to try to sort out the starting issue involved the rt starter going into the lt, too ensure we have a good contact to earth with either starter we can add a earth strap to the starter just incase the contact through the mount isnt enough in these difficult times. Once we work out which is the lsr in the 1984rt box we can swap it to the lt or pinch the 1987rt's lsr to do the same if they are all compatible. Ed did you find out which one in the rt el box is the lsr?
Ed 6 fords in the race 16 holdens odds were certainly stacked against them, who'd of picked that.


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

79Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:53 am

charlie99

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yeah that was a good plan keith

I feel there is a deeper issue with the power supply ....maybe just a corrosion thang

possibly a a test next would to be at those small pins at the outer of the number 6 fuse 
this might confirm that there is in fact voltage getting to that part.

there is some other connections which are convoluted in the diagrams ....like the loop terminal on the fi relay ..... which also gets power etc from the same circuitry  as the injectors  and more ...

do the injectors sound like they are working during start ?

I would now be thinking that there is an issue with either a shorted cable  crimped cable that is shared with something else during start ..

yeah those last few 20 or so laps were amazing huh !!!

(4th attempt at posting.... blommin internet )


oh ????   blue wire and brown wire .....ouch yes that might have a lot to do with it
brown is ALWAYS earth on our bikes .... blue hmmm is that the field winding to the alternator


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%Oproblem starting - Page 2 Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

80Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:20 am

K75cster

K75cster
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Where in Maitland can you track down another relay Ed, do you know a trusted Auto electrician, having been to Brysans lately i doubt they keep them
Sorry Charlie we haven't checked voltage drop when cranking will addd that to the next encounter with the lt
No haven't replaced fuses, oops



Last edited by K75cster on Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:26 am; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

81Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:24 am

charlie99

charlie99
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dumb question ....but ...you have replaced all the fuses ...haven't you ?


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%Oproblem starting - Page 2 Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

82Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:35 am

Ed

Ed
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OOPs + 1 
I did inspect them though , all seem clear , but will replace them right now and get back to you asap.
Hallinans  in High Street , where I bought the battery from, knows bikes as well. Bob is a good bloke to deal with .


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

83Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:46 am

Ed

Ed
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fuses have now been replaced , still nothing . same as before.

I did remove the starter again this afternoon , and re-cleaned all connections .
Charlie , I'm still looking at post #25 as the next step, affected wiring , clear that up and continue with resolving further issues.


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

84Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:57 am

K75cster

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Charlie, no power to the injectors when cranking either, but a solid show of numbers when the button is released, 12.69v, same for the pump no fuel movement when cranking but fuel flow in abundance when button is released, so has to be earlier than those two's power supply, we'll check the voltage drop at ignition and start heading back towards the battery from there, and we will check the batt for load voltage as well.
When cranking power is removed from everything except fuel and ignition syst, these systems are powered by slave side of lsr so bike can start, pity the 2 rt's lsr's cant be used,, Hope thats right
Ed I'll see if I can find my little alligator clips that fit your probe type leads on the multi meter


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

85Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:06 am

Inge K.

Inge K.
VIP
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@K75cster wrote:, pity the 2 rt's lsr's cant be used,, Hope thats right




On the LT the LSR, FI, and horn relay is similar.
On the other hand I can't see why a bad LSR should causing starting problems.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

86Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:22 am

Inge K.

Inge K.
VIP
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The injectors, fuel pump ++ is powered from the FI relay, I would guess the problem
is found here.

1. A voltage drop in the circuit at the positive side of the FI relay coil during cranking.
2. The negative side of the FI relay coil is grounded in the ignition ECU...........

If it's no voltage drop on the relay coil during cranking, I would have tried to swap
the ignition ECU.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

87Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:26 am

charlie99

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hmm that looks like a blue gray cable ed ....possibly the parkers power circuit ? (maybe I didn't notice it before )

im wondering if that is pointing to other "unseen issues " in that cable assembly off the the righthand controls ( ie the start button and the  emergency cutout ) ?

im with keith and suggest working backwards to find out where the loss is happening

the fi relay supply cable  needs to be confirmed  as well .

 
yes your right inge ...yet again ..about the start circuit .

(only 3 attempts to send this one ..crikey I hate mobile broadband ...sometimes )

yes inge its looking like the supply to the fi  to me as well  or as you suggest the ecu ...(under tank )

but you cleaned that up didn't you ed ? or am I thinking the afm connector ?


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%Oproblem starting - Page 2 Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

88Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:35 am

K75cster

K75cster
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No dont believe we touched the ignition unit, but have one to take over to Ed's ready to go


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

89Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:38 am

Ed

Ed
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swapped the horn relay to the LSR  , no change .
Charlie I did unbolt the ICU from under the steering head, this morning , looked clean but could do with a second look and pin test.



Last edited by groverK on Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:43 am; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

90Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:41 am

Inge K.

Inge K.
VIP
VIP
@K75cster wrote:No dont believe we touched the ignition unit, but have one to take over to Ed's ready to go
Or swap the RT -- LT ignition ECU's........
If no voltage drop is found at the positive side of the relay coil.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

91Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:57 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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If the injectors are working after the start button is pressed, but not while its pressed, suggests that circuit is working as in power to relay and the relay itself as well as the wiring.

What's missing is a signal to power up the injectors WHILE starter button is pressed, if that comes from a separate pin on ECU or by a signal to ECU from a separate wire from the right hand assembly maybe check there. Or it may be grounded through ECU. I don't know enough to know the exact way it works but I would now be looking here.

Easier to work back from ECU and rule that out. The pins on the ECU may need cleaning but be careful doing it.



Last edited by 92KK K100LT 193214 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

92Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:03 am

Ed

Ed
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Yesterday we attempted to fire up the RT after a 4 year standing .
it resulted in a no start ,so a swap of the ICU today did not follow.


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

93Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:40 am

ausbrick

ausbrick
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Hi all .Thought I'd throw this in it might help if its a wiring fault. I had a problem with my k75c recently where it would cut out and fuel pump would not kick in after riding 20 kms or so, then run again after sitting for 10 to 20 minutes ,it did this on 3-4 test rides  after swapping all the relays and elec components off my k75s and believing it was solved. After it did it again at home in the shed when I went to start it I nearly did a utube of k75c vs komatsu excavator I was so frustrated with it:x  . As it turned out  doing it at home allowed me to test every thing following the system up to the plug under the tank where it was getting power  but no pump . Thought this was strange as I had swapped pumps . I pulled the pump out and bench tested  it was working . I then pulled out the  power lead that goes into the tank and tested the wires continuity to find that one of the pump wires was broken inside the insulation cheers , it had been making contact just enough to run until the heat under the tank would make the insulation expand enough for the ends of the broken wires to part contact causing the loss of  power to the pump. Years of bending I guess must have caused it .  Intermittent electrical problems like this can be very hard to find as you can only test to find them when they are occurring.  Learn how to use the continuity tester on your multimeter its invaluable. Good thing about all this was I cleaned up every connector and plug on the bike trying to solve it and the little bike is running sweeter than ever , might go round all the elects on the other bikes , seems to be definitely worth it . Great to see all of the advise flowing from everyone  this really is a top forum with lots of help out there .   Cheers AB
.

    

94Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:10 am

Ed

Ed
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I can see merit in that thought Aus , worth a look see. 
hoping to get on top of this thing sooner than later , but the thoughts and advice are well received and appreciated , a top forum.


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
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95Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:25 am

RicK G

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I have come to 2 conclusions after spending quite some tome staring at the circuits that you have either a faulty ICU or the hall sensor for 2-3 is not working at all.
Although both hall sensors feed into the ICU From what I can see the signal from the 2-3 sensor is the one that gives the signals the ICU uses to time the fuel injectors and that the earth that remains after the start button is released to let the pump run for 1.5 seconds is also letting the ICU send an earth to the injectors.
How the innards of that ICU work is close to a complete mystery but there is a guy in Sydney that fixes them
http://www.cdirepair.com.au/ and he can even get rid of or mod the revlimiter.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

96Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:15 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Rick G has pointed out some sound advice. It seems to be narrowed to a signal issue.

The thing is that if the connections are faulty in any way it can have the same effect. One faulty connection on a single pin on the ICU or anywhere else can do the same thing. Checking each individual wire will confirm the wire is in order but not the connections unless you are doing the test from one end of the line to the other after you have checked each individual wire. Its slow but when you are done with this one there is nothing you won't know about the K bike.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

97Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:06 am

K75cster

K75cster
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Inge Rickg 92kk thats the right track, I couldn't remember where I'd read about the non start issue of a pump that works after the starters finished, and seemed to believe the lsr carried the power to the icu and the fiu when button pressed, which is wrong, and we walked down lsr avenue on Saturday arvo for the fun of it. next time in we check the right stuff. Hope to be able to drop by after visiting at the hospital now we have daylight savings. Thankyou all now all you need do is stop me from straying again and all will be resolved


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

98Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:15 am

Ed

Ed
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I'm just following him.....mech


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

99Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:12 pm

Ed

Ed
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Keith and I got back into last night , replaced the Hall sensors , RH switch block to the connector under the tank,  ICU and the FIU, no changes at all.
Keith is looking at popping around during daylight today to follow some earth wires and get some readings.
failing that , not sure where we go.
possibly remove the fuel pump for inspection and search around in the tank a bit more.
the fuel pump is still showing a delay in start up, and releases fuel when the start button is released.
at this stage I should be signing off as "frustrated", but with help from the forum , I'm not tackling it on my own. thanks all.
 it has so far been adventurous , learning more about my K each day.


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

100Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:35 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Here is a thought.

I am a bit green at this but I see the fuel pump is not pumping when the starter button is pressed. Let me see if this is logical, hopefully someone will either say its worth looking at or makes no sense.

Load shed relay cuts off certain functions as it disconnects their earths [lights etc] while the starter button is pressed.

Am I right in thinking the ECU controls the fuel pump by controlling the earth side rather than the live side?

Presumably in this case the fuel pump etc is not wired or earthed through the circuits cut off by the load shed relay.

But what if the wiring was modified so it was getting its power supply from a different source that's cut off by the load shed relay while the starter button is pressed?

Just my thoughts.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

101Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 2 Empty Re: problem starting Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:49 pm

Ed

Ed
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it is possible Olaf, 
are there any suggestions of a starting point to trace earth wires ,do we start at the pump and work back. this would be my logic.
 Keith is going to examine the portal wiring schematics ,he said they are much better than the ones in the manual.

I am so glad this didn't occur on my recent rides. Klompys K pick up Hotline would certainly have received a call.


__________________________________________________
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 2 10_x_110
    

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