Front seals, tyre, and brakes

Ned · 1 Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:40 pm

Ned

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Number of posts : 644

Hi all,

It is time to service the front end of my brick.
That means new fork seals, caliper seals, pads and a new tyre.

Got all the bits and took the wheel off, drain the fork oil and now looking at removing the seals WITHOUT taking the forks off the bike.
Can this be done easily?

Be easy on me since this is my first fork seal service on any bike Smile

yes i did search the forum before I asked Smile

Inge K. · 2 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:01 pm

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With a couple of 2x4" under the centerstand and support under the engine you
have enough room to move the sliders down.
(but I prefeer remove the complete leg(s) and put them in a wise, easier to work).

Take care with the screws in the bottom...shallow head, easily rounded.

Ned · 3 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:23 pm

Ned

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Inge K. wrote:With a couple of 2x4" under the centerstand and support under the engine you
have enough room to move the sliders down.
(but I prefeer remove the complete leg(s) and put them in a wise, easier to work).

Take care with the screws in the bottom...shallow head, easily rounded.

Thank you Inge.
I was hoping to avoid taking down the fairing just to replace the seals. Also, I am workshop space challenged so vice and banchspace is a bit of a problem.

Having a quick look at the workshop manual:

I appear to have Brembo forks,
The drawing does not show snapring or a circlip to hold the seal in place????? How does that work?
If i leave the bike on a centre stand and jack up the engine 10cm or so, can I pull the sliders off and pop the seal at the same time, as is normally done on most bikesI've seen?
Organic or cintered pads? Pyramid parts?
Bottom bolts(6mm?) on my bike are soooo very tight ... any clues on this one?

I will, no doubt, solve this as I go along, but I would appreciate the forum wisdom on this matter.

Inge K. · 4 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:55 pm

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Ned wrote:
[*]The drawing does not show snapring or a circlip to hold the seal in place????? How does that work?

It's press fit..........a snap ring was used from ~1year later than yours.

Ned wrote:
[*]If i leave the bike on a centre stand and jack up the engine 10cm or so, can I pull the sliders off and pop the seal at the same time, as is normally done on most bikesI've seen?

Sounds very unstable to me, but it can be done.

Ned wrote:
[*]Organic or cintered pads? Pyramid parts?

Original is organic, sintered has a better bite, and like brakediscs for breakfast,
about Pyramids parts........what I've read about them haven't been kind words.

Ned wrote:
[*]Bottom bolts(6mm?) on my bike are soooo very tight ... any clues on this one?

If you're talking about the clamp bolts, use a heat gun, alu expands more than steel.

Dai · 5 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:32 pm

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I doubt you'll get that required 10cm (4 inches) without compressing the rear suspension and making the whole plot unstable as Inge says. Once the front wheel is off it should be possible to drop the forks out without removing the fairing (I've done it on a K1100LT) and it will be a lot easier to work on them even with limited bench space. A vice (vise) is a necessity, AFAICS. One of these will help immeasurably when popping the seals - no more screwdriver gouges.

Linky just in case it doesn't show up under the word 'these'. OTOH it could just be my aging eyesight.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Draper-O-Ring-and-Oil-Seal-Puller-Removing-Grease-Seal-Remover-Pulling-Tool-Hook-/380983870306?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item58b4688362

Ned · 6 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:00 pm

Ned

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Dai wrote:I doubt you'll get that required 10cm (4 inches) without compressing the rear suspension and making the whole plot unstable as Inge says. Once the front wheel is off it should be possible to drop the forks out without removing the fairing (I've done it on a K1100LT) and it will be a lot easier to work on them even with limited bench space. A vice (vise) is a necessity, AFAICS. One of these will help immeasurably when popping the seals - no more screwdriver gouges.

Linky just in case it doesn't show up under the word 'these'. OTOH it could just be my aging eyesight.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Draper-O-Ring-and-Oil-Seal-Puller-Removing-Grease-Seal-Remover-Pulling-Tool-Hook-/380983870306?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item58b4688362

Thank you Inge and Dai,

I've taken your advice on parts and options.

I am working my way up from the axle to cure a few small problems I've found. Currently waiting for pads from Metal Gear (Queensland) who sell disks and pads.

I did find that taking the bottom bolt on triple tree is not as bad as I thought. The PO has obviously had problems with this and has replaced the shallow Allen bolt with a full size one. This should make it easier to turn without rounding the hex socket. I am applying penetrating oil to make things a little easier.

Thanks again.
Ned

92KK 84WW Olaf · 7 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:12 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

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The comment about compressing the rear suspension......remove the rear shock is what my buddy does....and a prop under the engine along with some tie downs so the bike doesn't fall back or forward. All after simply loosening off but not removing all the necessary bolts.

Ned · 8 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:13 pm

Ned

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92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:The comment about compressing the rear suspension......remove the rear shock is what my buddy does....and a prop under the engine along with some tie downs so the bike doesn't fall back or forward. All after simply loosening off but not removing all the necessary bolts.

Thank you. good idea.
I need to check the shock mounts etc because it was replaced a year or so ago. I may just use the oportunity to inspect its condition as I am servicing the front end.

Ned

Ned

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Aghhhhhhh... I was about to bolt the whole thing together just to find that the left pinch bolt was held in with silicone sealant Sad

I can't think of anything more dangerous.

When i pulled it out with my fingers it looked too short... it was 25 mm long !!

Could someone tell me if this bolt should be 50mm long? if so I have to order another top yoke.

After checking the realoem site, I think that the part number (top yoke replacement) is 31421451456. Is this correct? I need to order another, probably from the US.

charlie99 · 10 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:21 am

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way too short ned ...hang on ill pull one out of mine

about 50 mm is more like it so you should be able to pop one in a bit longer and it should hold well ?!!!

Ned · 11 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:56 am

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charlie99 wrote:way too short ned ...hang on ill pull one out of mine

about 50 mm is more like it so you should be able to pop one in a bit longer and it should hold well ?!!!

thanks mate...

The hole is only 25mm deep... it looks like the bolt must have sheered and is left inside.

I have a chance to get a new one for around $150.

Any used ones around?

charlie99 · 12 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:57 am

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you've got nothing to lose ned ....run a 3.00 mm drill up the guts and see if you can get a centre line happening ...then go to a 5 - 6.5 mm drill (pending the easyout sizes you have) which might create enough heat to break the galling ...followed by an easy out to remove .....aluminium expands more than steel with heat so possibly a good heat up when removed from the forks could be the deal ? easy to remove the top yolk ....in any case you'll be doing it soon anyhow .

good luck with the solve

Ned · 13 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:46 am

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charlie99 wrote:you've got nothing to lose ned ....run a 3.00 mm drill up the guts and see if you can get a centre line happening ...then go to a 5 - 6.5 mm drill (pending the easyout sizes you have) which might create enough heat to break the galling ...followed by an easy out to remove .....aluminium expands more than steel with heat so possibly a good heat up when removed from the forks could be the deal ? easy to remove the top yolk ....in any case you'll be doing it soon anyhow .

good luck with the solve

Thank you, I appreciate it.

I will give that a go tomorrow.

Dai · 14 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:06 pm

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Oh well - dare I suggest changing the headstock bearings if the yoke has to come off anyway?

Inge K. · 15 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:08 pm

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Or at least clean and regrease them........the old grease dries out and get hard.

Ned · 16 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:23 pm

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charlie99 wrote:you've got nothing to lose ned ....run a 3.00 mm drill up the guts and see if you can get a centre line happening ...then go to a 5 - 6.5 mm drill (pending the easyout sizes you have) ...in any case you'll be doing it soon anyhow .

good luck with the solve

The damage so far: The top left pinch bolt broke, leaving the whole 25mm of threaded section inside the hole. My workshop people will help solve the problem with left hand twist drills, easy outs etc etc.

Have a new unit on order, due in a week or so from the USA. I will probably end up using this.

Replacing all the bolts to make sure. Also got some copper anti seize compound to use. Any bolts that I should keep free of copper anti seize?

Anyway the whole thing is loose and about to be pulled apart. Had problems with the top nut that holds the top yoke in place... it took a bit of work to undo, but all is done now. Is this nut really to be tighten to 80 Nm?

Ned

Ned · 17 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:01 pm

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charlie99 wrote:you've got nothing to lose ned ....run a 3.00 mm drill up the guts and see if you can get a centre line happening ...then go to a 5 - 6.5 mm drill (pending the easyout sizes you have) which might create enough heat to break the galling ...followed by an easy out to remove .....aluminium expands more than steel with heat so possibly a good heat up when removed from the forks could be the deal ? easy to remove the top yolk ....in any case you'll be doing it soon anyhow .

good luck with the solve

Here is my solution to drilling out the bolt.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7_6gDPDREzKM1NfMklvTDhrQjA/view?usp=sharing

Essentially take an 8mm masonry plug which fits the bolt hole snugly.
The centre hole is 3mm so I used a new sharp 3mm drill bit to start the process. The whole thing is self centring so start slowly by bumping the spinning drill bit against the bolt to get things started.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7_6gDPDREzKRVVGLWtTeW51Um8/view?usp=sharing

keep drilling until most of the bolt is done. At this point a left hand twist drill would be handy as the bolt may get loose during the drilling process. Don't use lubricants as you want to create max friction and temperature.

I got lucky ... 3mm hole and number 2 easy out did it. 4 mm hole would have been better and that would have been my next move.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7_6gDPDREzKOTctbXo3c2s0OVE/view?usp=sharing
Now to put it all back Smile

Inge K. · 18 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:06 pm

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Well done

.

RT · 19 Front seals, tyre, and brakes Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:07 pm

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Excellent result Ned, don't forget to clean that yoke up with soap and steel wool, don't want to have dirty bits do we.
Sorry double dipping

Last edited by RT on Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : entered 2wice)

Ned · 20 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:12 pm

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RT wrote:Excellent result Ned, don't forget to clean that yoke up with soap and steel wool, don't want to have dirty bits do we.
Sorry double dipping

tanks guys... I am always happy to hear that twice Smile

Oh yes, and I don't have to spend $150 for a new one Smile

Inge K. · 21 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:20 pm

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Hey RT that could be a early stage of parkinson, when you have triple posts very time,
then it isn't any doubt about it.

charlie99 · 22 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:50 am

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good to hear ned ....great result

I better help rt out and delete the first post ? it can be impossible at times to see the post applied in a short time... and have done it myself... by hitting send more than once

RT · 23 Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:17 pm

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It was Inge's fault he posted in as I pushed send , then had to figure out if it had gone, etc, apart from old age
and being a bad typist.
Sorry Ned, back to the story line.

Inge K. · 24 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:07 pm

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Sorry RT, from now on I will never ever send a post while you're online Front seals, tyre, and brakes 261959

.

Ned · 25 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:25 am

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RT wrote:It was Inge's fault he posted in as I pushed send , then had to figure out if it had gone, etc, apart from old age
and being a bad typist.
Sorry Ned, back to the story line.

Trap for old players or just bad design?

Tried to put the wheel back on after screwing things together just to find that this was a problem. The axle shaft would not go through no matter how much I tried.

Used my fingers to feel around the holes and found that the right hand side bolt that holds the slider to the internal piston did not clear the axle on the right hand side(pic).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7_6gDPDREzKR2phTEF4UEVqRWs/view?usp=sharing

It was immediately obvious that due to axle two diameter construction, the right hand side bolt had to be a shallow head M8x20. Checked on realoem to find the same part number but no description. Sad

Wasted a lot of time, but it forced me to take a close view of the whole assembly. I've decided that copper washer and shallow bolt is the only way to make sure the thing does not leak.

Just a comment: I hate be finding this out on the road away from home.

blaKey · 26 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:43 am

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"Essentially take an 8mm masonry plug which fits the bolt hole snugly.
The centre hole is 3mm so I used a new sharp 3mm drill bit to start the process. The whole thing is self centring..."

That's just a bloody brilliant idea!

Ned · 27 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:02 am

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blaKey wrote:"Essentially take an 8mm masonry plug which fits the bolt hole snugly.
The centre hole is 3mm so I used a new sharp 3mm drill bit to start the process. The whole thing is self centring..."

That's just a bloody brilliant idea!

Thank you Blakey Smile

You know the saying "necessity is a mother of invention" ... it also saved me $150 and lots of time.

Seriously .. It makes a great guide. 6 and 8 mm plugs are very useful as they match metric bolts/holes.

Inge K. · 28 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:08 am

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Ned wrote:

It was immediately obvious that due to axle two diameter construction, the right hand side bolt had to be a shallow head M8x20.

If it's the same bike as the one in the signatur line, this bolt should be M8x70
unless the fork have been changed.

Ned · 29 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:24 am

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Inge K. wrote:

Ned wrote:

It was immediately obvious that due to axle two diameter construction, the right hand side bolt had to be a shallow head M8x20.

If it's the same bike as the one in the signatur line, this bolt should be M8x70
unless the fork have been changed.

I am now confused. Realoem give me this :

You Have Selected: 05/1986 K589 K 100 RS 83 (0502,0503,0513) Europe
Production Code: 0503

that shows is to be M8x20, see

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=0503&mospid=51751&btnr=31_0368&hg=31&fg=42

I don't know about the history of the forks but i don't think that 70mm will fit into the space available.

Inge K. · 30 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:29 am

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If it's a motorsport model it should have the F&S sport fork (same as K75's).
Don't know why they have put the M8x20 in there as that is used on the std. fork.
....this is due to the different internal parts.

The sport fork have a spacer in the bottom (#17) which is the reason to the longer screws.

Front seals, tyre, and brakes Demper10

If the M8x20 fits on your fork either the fork have been changed or the spacers
have been removed.
If it's the correct fork it should have the two piece mudguard with the fork stabilizer between.

Rick G · 31 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:25 am

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Don't you just love people who mess with them and don't even bother to have a casual glance at a manual or parts diagram POs do the darnedest things. I reckon you should be allowed to retrospectively strangle them.

Ned · 32 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:43 pm

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Inge K. wrote:If it's a motorsport model it should have the F&S sport fork (same as K75's).
Don't know why they have put the M8x20 in there as that is used on the std. fork.
....this is due to the different internal parts.

The sport fork have a spacer in the bottom (#17) which is the reason to the longer screws.

....

If the M8x20 fits on your fork either the fork have been changed or the spacers
have been removed.
If it's the correct fork it should have the two piece mudguard with the fork stabilizer between.

Thanks for looking Inge. I need to have a good look again when I get home tonight, but looking at your response:
a. I have Brembo forks with a two piece mudguard and a stabilizer is between the forks,
b. lots of work seem to have been done in the past so mods are more than likely.
c. I have to pull the stanchions off again to inspect the bottom screws and sealing washers.
d. If that drawing represents what I should have, I seem to be missing a whole lot of bits.

As all that appeared to be wrong was a leaky seals, I assumed that internals were all accounted for and present. I seem to have this, I think:
Front seals, tyre, and brakes 5

@RickG... give me just 5 minutes with the P,PO Twisted Evil

Inge K. · 33 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:58 pm

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In your drawing it is the internal parts for the standard fork.

I would guess that the stanchions have been changed as complete units with springs
and internals.....and the sliders moved over from the genuine fork.

The sport fork have a "S" stamped in beside the filler plug at the top of the stanchions.
It also is a different amount of oil volume, sport 280 ml, std. 360 ml.

It could be that the "motorsport" model also could be ordered with standard damping
components but that is very less likely, and it would then have std. sliders w/o stabilizer.

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1 Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:40 pm

Ned

2 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:01 pm

Inge K.

3 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:23 pm

Ned

4 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:55 pm

Inge K.

5 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:32 pm

Dai

6 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:00 pm

Ned

7 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:12 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

8 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:13 pm

Ned

9 Front seals, tyre and brakes now becomes top yoke (brace) Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:12 am

Ned

10 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:21 am

charlie99

11 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:56 am

Ned

12 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:57 am

charlie99

13 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:46 am

Ned

14 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:06 pm

Dai

15 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:08 pm

Inge K.

16 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:23 pm

Ned

17 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:01 pm

Ned

18 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:06 pm

Inge K.

19 Front seals, tyre, and brakes Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:07 pm

RT

20 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:12 pm

Ned

21 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:20 pm

Inge K.

22 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:50 am

charlie99

23 Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:17 pm

RT

24 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:07 pm

Inge K.

25 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:25 am

Ned

26 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:43 am

blaKey

27 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:02 am

Ned

28 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:08 am

Inge K.

29 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:24 am

Ned

30 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:29 am

Inge K.

31 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:25 am

Rick G

32 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:43 pm

Ned

33 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:58 pm

Inge K.

34 Re: Front seals, tyre, and brakes

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