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1Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Bike won't run. Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:52 pm

FissionMailed

FissionMailed
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Evening,

My bike has a problem that needs to be fixed. As it was sitting on the stand a few days ago, warming up, it made a strange little sound and then would not run past ~2,000 rpm. It would only idle (where it sounded pretty good, actually, minus the very occasional miss) with the choke on. I'm going to try to summarize what I've checked out here and see if you guys can figure it out.

-Spark appears to be good on all 4 cylinders (checked this via sticking needlenose pliers in the plug wires, it will spark to the engine), and plugs are brand new.

-Hall effect sensor should be OK. Tested this by throwing bike in 5th gear on centerstand and rolling the rear wheel. Fuel pump pulses every so often.

-Pulled fuel line, the pump is spitting fuel out. 

-Something weird I noted is that the starter will now run no matter what RPM the engine is turning.

-Vacuum caps over the throttle bodies and vacuum line to the FPR are all new

-I have done no work on this bike on the 10k miles since I have owned it, with the exception of resecuring the fuel sender under the tank.

-The bike idles very erratically, and there is a small amount of white smoke.

What could this be?

    

2Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:07 pm

RicK G

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Sounds to me like a Fuel Pressure Regulator is returning too much fuel and has low pressure. The FPR is not an easy thing to get at so it would pay to get a pressure gauge and test the pressure is correct. Ideally it should be 2.5bar (36psi) but could be as low as 2.2 (32psi) and still be running OK through the range.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

3Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:36 pm

FissionMailed

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How much fuel flow should I be looking at if I just pull the line off the fuel rail before the injectors/FPR?

It shot some out, but not a lot of pressure behind it. I did not block it with a finger or anything.

    

4Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:10 pm

RicK G

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With the hose disconnected is not regulated there but you should have great difficulty holding it back with your finger over the hose. I should be about 6 bar (90psi) but that only tests the pump pressure before the regulator can do its job. Because you test there you have disconnected the FPR unless the gauge is inserted and the line rejoined. You need to use a pressure gauge to test for correct pressure.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

5Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:31 pm

FissionMailed

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Went ahead and threw on a new FPR- the old one was a generic aftermarket (junky) adjustable.

The problem remains. Bike won't idle at all. Any ideas?

    

6Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:49 pm

charlie99

charlie99
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time to test the temperature sensor

measure the connector to the under seat computer

pins 10 and 13

there are many posts about this  
 the flow chart for "efi issues" details some of the likely culprits
 http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/K100/download/bike-wont-start.htm

does the start process  automatically happen at switch on ?


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OBike won't run. Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

7Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:59 am

FissionMailed

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The start process seems to be good- I think I get what you're asking. The bike starts, but doesn't really run, if that makes sense.

Here's something that might be interesting- it's about 30* here (just below 0 Celsius) and the water temperature sensor seems to be reading about 11.5k ohms resistance. Bike has not been running at all. Is this correct? The bike does seem to run awfully rich.

    

8Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:22 am

FissionMailed

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Might also be worth noting that I found a red/green wire and a black wire with the copper exposed right near the fuse panel. Anybody got any idea where these go? I think I'm missing them on the wiring diagram above...

    

9Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:37 am

RicK G

RicK G
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That red/green wire supplies power to the fuel injection relay and the injectors, if it is disconnected the whole FI system has no power. It goes to fuse 6 which is second from the bottom fuse.
That resistance for the temperature sensor is OK.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

10Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:39 am

FissionMailed

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Uh oh. That is odd, because that is a new issue. That's not what's causing the problem, else the bike would never have run at all.

    

11Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:55 am

Inge K.

Inge K.
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The green/red wire and the black wire is most likely for the altitude corrector plug.
You Connect them together when going above a certain altitude, search the forum....



Last edited by Inge K. on Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:58 am; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

12Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:57 am

FissionMailed

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I should be safe to insulate the wires, right?

    

13Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:00 am

Inge K.

Inge K.
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Info added to my previous post.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

14Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:02 am

FissionMailed

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Right, right, if it is the altitude plug thingy I'll wire up a switch. That wouldn't cause a no-run condition, would it?

    

15Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:03 am

FissionMailed

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Sorry, I mean: having the plug in when it shouldn't be (and vice versa) wouldn't cause the bike to be undrivable, correct?

    

16Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:34 am

Inge K.

Inge K.
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Normally these two wires is separated......but when traveling above 4000 feet
the wires should be connected together to lean out the mix.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

17Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:55 pm

FissionMailed

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Check these values out, I think my air flow meter is toast.

Pins 7-5, 167
7-8, 402
8-5, 363
8-9, 204

    

18Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:56 pm

FissionMailed

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Values in ohms, bench tested in an approximately 68* F room.

What now? Crack it open, check internals?

    

19Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:04 pm

FissionMailed

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Just to clear up my issue...

I doubt there are any wiring problems, personally- the bike starts up as normal, it just doesn't want to run. Seems to be giving itself enough fuel to flood itself.

    

20Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:33 pm

Inge K.

Inge K.
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@FissionMailed wrote: I think my air flow meter is toast.

Pins 7-5, 167
7-8, 402
8-5, 363
8-9, 204

+1, if you compare them to the ones in the troubleshooting diagram at the portal.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

21Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:11 pm

FissionMailed

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This does lead me into asking a few more questions, though. Can these airflow meters really "die"? It does not appear any moisture got into the system, no real corrosion is evident. Think adjusting the little vanes on the resistor track will help?

    

22Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:24 pm

RicK G

RicK G
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They do die. I seem to remember charlie doing a fixit on one of those that worked. If you have a search of his resto thread you might find it or just a general search of the forum.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

23Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:38 pm

FissionMailed

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Did enough toying with it- I went ahead and ordered a (supposedly) good air flow meter off eBay. We'll see what happens.

    

24Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:51 am

charlie99

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the resistance measurement can be confusing ...but take note of the good and bad in the the efi trouble shooting thread

but for what its worth this is what I have found

if you can get a good power supply (perhaps a spare old battery with 12 volts still available) some telephone connectors ( about 3mm spade types ) you will need 3 of them attached to some cables (any size will do ...small is good )
you will also need a multi meter set to 10 volts  (or 20 volts full scale )

  this is where the afm fails on all sorts of vehicles ,,,, especially on the early versions ...later bmw models have a braided link between the 2 pieces


Bike won't run. Armatu11



heres the connection details

  5 = earth
  9 = +12
  7 = output

the flow or opening measurements versus the output voltage

Bike won't run. Hand_g10


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OBike won't run. Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

25Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:35 pm

FissionMailed

FissionMailed
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Yep, I had a pretty good idea how it worked after I cracked it open and looked around. I noted the little arm and how it connected to the wiper. After adjusting the wiper up or down the shaft, I airways verified via meter- and visually- that I had connection from the pin to the wiper itself.

It appears my issue was the resistive strip. I never could get a good connection to it.

    

26Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:57 am

charlie99

charlie99
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you can move the plate holding the resistive strip fractionally by undoing the fixing screws  and tweeking it a little

could be an idea to get some firm but thin cardboard and get under the wiper with the card board soaked in some flux remover ...it cleans just about anything ...but be carefull where it gets

I moved mine just a smidgen ...and took it from reading 1.86  volts  down t about 1.35 volts ...and a new sweep range across the carbon strip

don't forget to lock down the screws for the pcboard with some thread locker ...or nail varnish

Bike won't run. 2013-012

Bike won't run. 2013-013

 I have seen heard of some of the connectors breaking away from the tag strips that lead off to the external spade terminals as well .\some thing that could be cured with a little cautious soldering work but if the conections break away from the pc board  ...( have seen this )  could be a dump run involved



good luck


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OBike won't run. Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

27Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:27 pm

FissionMailed

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Replaced the AFM...Still no luck. Bike now starts up strong but only runs for a few seconds. I know I have an injector that may be an issue (17ohms resistance) but I can't see that crossing this particular issue. I'm wondering if this is a fuel pump now. It is making an erratic sound when the bike is running and RPMs jump around a lot, but never over 1500k or so.

Ideas?

    

28Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:37 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

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@FissionMailed wrote:Replaced the AFM...Still no luck. Bike now starts up strong but only runs for a few seconds. I know I have an injector that may be an issue (17ohms resistance) but I can't see that crossing this particular issue. I'm wondering if this is a fuel pump now. It is making an erratic sound when the bike is running and RPMs jump around a lot, but never over 1500k or so.

Ideas?

Next time you fire it up, keep your finger on the starter button for a few seconds. If it stays running with your finger on the starter button suspect an interruption to the signal from the Hall sensors to the unit under the seat resulting in no fuel pressure. We had that issue with a K75 here and it was the plug connection to the unit under the seat.

Also, no mention of the multipin connector into the underside of the fuel tank but check that connection under the seat first.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

29Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:33 pm

FissionMailed

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Oh, I think I get what you're saying. Initial fuel pump activation is independent of the hall effect sensor, but continued operation requires signal from the sensor. Yes?

    

30Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:28 pm

FissionMailed

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Alright, might be narrowing this issue down finally.

It does run (beyond the starter just turning) if you hold the starter button down. Tach jumps around a bit, but it will run. I pulled out the ECU connector, cleaned it with electronics cleaner, and reconnected with no real effect.

I'm working on this bike on the side of the street that I live on, which makes things a bit harder. Can I get to the hall effect connector and ignition unit without pulling the tank?

    

31Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:57 pm

FissionMailed

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One more question...Can I use a meter to test the hall effect wiring? I'm worried about burning it up because I don't really know how to test resistance on it.

    

32Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:02 am

Inge K.

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@FissionMailed wrote:Can I get to the hall effect connector and ignition unit without pulling the tank?

No.


@FissionMailed wrote:I'm worried about burning it up because I don't really know how to test resistance on it?

In the troubleshooting diagram at the portal you find a "how to" test the sensors.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

33Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:30 pm

FissionMailed

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Sorry, I was thinking "I need to test the wiring" and forgot that the test procedure tests at the wiring plug so that issue is solved. And I can test it off the bike, so...

Just to make sure, I couldn't find a power supply at radio shack, so I'm good to hook wires directly to the battery, right?

    

34Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:55 pm

FissionMailed

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Pulled the sensor out and tested. Works fine when room temperature. Did not test with a hairdryer to get it hot, but the bike has the same issue when it's cold.

Also the local RadioShack has Deoxit, so that's my weekend project.

    

35Back to top Go down   Bike won't run. Empty Re: Bike won't run. Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:52 am

FissionMailed

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I apologize, but I'm lost here. How would I test to make sure the hall effect sensor signal is actually getting to the ignition module? I've tested the sensor and it is fine, so now what I need to do is test resistance with a probe from the negative battery terminal and a probe on the ground/shielding (two sperate tests of course) female ignition connector, right?

    

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