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1Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:22 am

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
This is embarrassing, but I could use the help.

Bike was starting and running fine. I pulled my tank to repaint it. A few weeks later when I reinstalled the tank the bike won't start. It is cranking, fuel pump running. I put a piece of tape over the fuel line to be sure nothing fell in there while the tank was off.  

I have some minor non-standard electrical, including an acewell speedo and Robmac's neutral light board. All of that has worked fine before.

I have air box and exhaust modifications, but those were all working fine before as well.

I have to think I knocked something electrical loose in removing/replacing the tank, but I've got no clue what it would be.

I know this isn't much to go on, but I'm at a loss. I'd appreciate any ideas about where to start. Thanks much.

Bike is a 1985 K100RT.



Last edited by KJustin on Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

    

2Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Bike won't start--help Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:26 am

RT

RT
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Hi mate, an obvious thing to say but i've done it, did you reverse the fuel lines when you took them off?. Check the return line and fuel rail line are on the right spigots.
RT


__________________________________________________
2011 R1200RT
    

3Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:29 am

KJustin

KJustin
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Nope. But it's a good question as that is the sort of error I could easily make. Any other ideas?


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

4Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:34 am

Comberjohn

Comberjohn
Life time member
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Another, even more obvious thing. Kill switch in right position?
We've all done stupid stuff.


__________________________________________________
Life is not a rehearsal.
2010 VFR 1200F DCT 
2010 R1200GS(gone)
1986 K100 Silver(gone)
2012 K1600GT(gone)
1984 K100RT Madison Silver(gone)
1989 K100LT Stratus Grey(gone)
1984 K100 Red(gone)
http://www.johnsdrivingschool.co
    

5Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:41 am

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
Yep, checked that also. Actually wouldn't crank with the switch set to kill. I was doing some brake work while the tank was off and could have gotten some brake fluid (and brake cleaner used to clean up my mess) in the switch. I ruled that out as an issue since it was all cranking fine. But let me know if you think I was too hasty in ruling that out.


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

6Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:47 am

Holister

Holister
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This is the exact situation that Crazy Frog's 'Startup Troubleshooting Guide' is used for.

Its either fuel or electrical. Take out your SPs.
If they're dry its fuel. Check for fuel pressure at the rail.
If they're wet it'll be electrical. Check for spark. Your fuel relay is working because the pump is going but worth checking for 12V at an injector connector plug.

Brake fluid will mess with the electrics. Make sure you clean it right out.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

7Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:52 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Check on the electrical multipin connector to the unit under the seat.


How did you go about painting the tank? As in degas it, or close off the two spigots to the fuel lines, if fuel pump was out its possible the electrical connections got reversed. Pump will run but in reverse so no fuel.

Follow the troubleshooting and as said first step is find is it electrical or fuel.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

8Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:15 am

mike d

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If it's an OEM pump then the fittings are sized so that you shouldn't be able to connect it up reversed.

Mike

    

9Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:20 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

avatar
Life time member
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I should have said that Mike. Just a lot of them get changed for non OEM, as I just discovered on mine.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

10Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:15 am

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
Thanks for all the input. I'll likely have to wait for the weekend to get back to the diagnosis. I didn't degas or disconnect the fuel pump when I painted. I masked off the spigots (including overflows), electrical and fuel cap with tape, leaving maybe 1/2 gallon of gas in the tank. I added maybe another 1/2 gallon after reinstalling, just to be sure there was enough to run. Anyone think this could have contaminated my gas by doing this?

I replaced the fuel pump damper (I think that's what it's called--overpriced black rubber thing housing the fuel pump that likes to disintegrate over time) a few months back. All was fine after that. I do have an OEM fuel pump. I'm assuming it's original to the bike, which has 87k miles.

Anyway, I'll follow the suggestions above and see what I can find. Thanks again!


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

11Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:20 pm

Comberjohn

Comberjohn
Life time member
Life time member
Talking about the pump damper brings to mind my own personal bee in my bonnet.
Has the inline fuel filter been changed recently?
As you point out, the damper breaks up and, in my case, the particles blocked the filter.
No warning, just died and wouldn't restart.
Remove the filter and try to blow through it.
Shouldn't be any resistance.


__________________________________________________
Life is not a rehearsal.
2010 VFR 1200F DCT 
2010 R1200GS(gone)
1986 K100 Silver(gone)
2012 K1600GT(gone)
1984 K100RT Madison Silver(gone)
1989 K100LT Stratus Grey(gone)
1984 K100 Red(gone)
http://www.johnsdrivingschool.co
    

12Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:03 pm

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
I will check the fuel filter (as well as other suggestions above) . It hasn't been changed since before the fuel pump damper, but I did change it shortly before that. It has maybe 100 miles on it. I thought I got all the disintegrating crud out of the tank, but I'm not to proud (or naive) to think I might have missed some. Or maybe something dislodged during hanging the tank to paint and got sucked into the filter.


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

13Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:38 pm

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
Ok, plugs were bone dry when I pulled them, even after cranking the starter for 30 seconds. (I pulled only cylinders 1 and 2--hope that sufficent). Went through all aspects of the fuel supply system and was getting gas with reasonable pressure to the beginning of the fuel rail. I don't have a pressure gauge, but holding I wasn't able to hold back the fuel by putting my thumb over it--made quite a mess spraying fuel about.

I've guess the next step is to see if there something in the fuel rail or injectors clogging things up? Is that right? Oh yeah, I also have spark. All advice on next steps appreciated before I pull the fuel rail and injectors.


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

14Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:25 am

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
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I would go to Radio Shack and get a couple 12v LED's and a package of alligator test leads.  You want to test to make sure there is a signal getting to the injectors. 

Pull the connector off of one of the injectors.  One of the terminals in it should have 12v on it when the engine is cranking.  Put the + lead of the LED on that terminal, and the - lead on the other.  Connected that way, the LED should flash when the engine is cranking. 

If it doesn't flash reverse the connections and try again.  If it still doesn't flash the problem is electrical, if it does, the problem is that the injectors aren't working and may need to be cleaned.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS
1988 K100RS SE

Past:
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

15Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:17 am

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
Point seven five, thank you. Radio shack is closed for the evening, but I'll do that tomorrow.

It seems so odd to me that dirty injectors would result in non starting like this. I never had rough running or lack of starting before. But thinking back on it now, last few starts I do seem to recall needing several seconds of cranking to start, when before starting was instaneous. I was assuming -- without any knowledge -- dirty injectors would have much more progressive symptoms.

Might as well ask the next two questions I'll have. If I need to pull and clean the injectors, what's he best way to clean them. And do I really have to replace the o rings on the injectors every time they are replaced, like it says in my Clymer manual?



__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

16Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:35 am

RicK G

RicK G
admin
admin
There are 2 x 10mm bolts holding the rail on then it comes away. Could be a bit stubborn and need a pry.
Before you remove clean around the base of the injectors where they go into the head carefully as any dirt will fall into the ports.
I use the carb and throttle body cleaner and open the injector by using a 9volt fire alarm battery (if you use 12v you run the risk of overheating the coil and FIZZ) you should hear a click then squirt some carb cleaner into the top, remove the 9 volts and leave it for 10 minutes then blow it out with compressed air then open it again and rinse and repeat a few times till clear cleaner comes out. Remove the filter in the top, the O-rings and nozzle cap and replace them. Often the filter is a bit difficult but screwing a small self tapping screw in there will give you a good grip but be careful.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

17Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:35 am

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
Life time member
I'm not saying the injectors are dirty, it's just that if you have pressurized fuel in the rail you need to find out if the problem is the computer, wiring or the injectors themselves.  The LED is a good way to tell that the electrical stuff is working.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS
1988 K100RS SE

Past:
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

18Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:39 pm

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
@KJustin wrote:Ok, plugs were bone dry when I pulled them, even after cranking the starter for 30 seconds. 
30 seconds is far too long to be cranking the motor over!! Doing this could damage your starter and severely deplete your battery leading to a burnt starter relay. If the bike doesn't start in the first few seconds there's no point in further attempts till the problem is sorted. 

Your battery should read 12.5V or more. If not, fully charge and take another reading after 12 hours or more (to remove surface charge) before cranking again or you could fry the starter relay.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

19Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:29 pm

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
30 seconds is hyperbole in my part, but it sure did seem like a long time. I put the bike on the charger after my experiments to keep the battery up.

I followed Point Seven Five's suggestion and tested at the injector cap. Seems this is the problem. No light when cranking, but I did get a small blip of light when I let off the starter button. Don't know if that means anything.

I'm going to look at Crazy Frog's troubleshooting guide and see if that helps me figure out what to do. In the interim, I'd appreciate suggestions on what to do next. TIA.


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

20Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:55 pm

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
You must first determine if you have power to the injector connector. The injectors have constant positive voltage applied from the fuel relay thru a connector under the tank. The FICU switches the injectors to earth at the right time and for the required duration.

Earth the negative side of the diode then test each connection in the connector to determine that you have 12V to the injector connector.
With ignition on, if the LED does not light ...
-You may have the diode around the wrong way.
-The fuel relay may not be working.
-The FI harness connector under the tank may need cleaning.

You can use a DMM on 20V DC setting to test for this instead of the LED.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

21Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:06 pm

RicK G

RicK G
admin
admin
The injectors will only get 12v when the FI relay is operated which is while the start button is held in and for 1.5 seconds after the start button is released or if the ICU is getting signals from the Hall sensors.  It is the same for the fuel pump.
The earth for the FI relay to operate is supplied by the ICU.
On a L-Jetronic system you wont get a 12v signal at the injectors when you turn the key on, only when the start button is pressed or the hall sensors are sending to the ICU.  It is only the 16v Motronic that gives that signal on turning the key on.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

22Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:04 am

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
Oh yes! Push the green button... Very Happy


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

23Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:03 pm

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
Looks like I have power at the injector caps (I only tested one--do I need to check all?). Just to be sure I did this right, Ithe LED lit/pulsed when one side was earthed and the other was on the female side of the socket. It didn't matter which side of the female socket. Same result on both sides/pins.

Is there other electrical I need to test? Or is it time to pull the injectors and see if they are clogged?


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

24Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:04 pm

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
Forgot to add: I also tried starting with the idle switch unplugged. Same result--wouldn't start.


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

25Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:42 am

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
I have more info, I think I'm close. But I'd appreciate thoughts/confirmation/refutation as appropriate.

I pulled the injectors and tried to start the bike with them out to see if they would spray.  No fuel was coming out of them.  Because I thought that I had power to the injector caps, I assumed that I had clogged injectors.  So, I followed the cleaning procedure by running carb cleaner through them with the 9 volt (smoke alarm) battery.  I found that injector 4 worked fine. I put it back in, tried to start again and no spray from the newly cleaned injector.  

That made me think that I must have missed something on the electrical.  I put my multimeter on the injector cap and was getting 24-26 volts when I cranked the engine (previously I had tested it only with the LED and the LED did light up).  But, I figured that couldn't be right, since I thought I was supposed to see 12v at the caps.  

I then did a continuity test between pin 12 on the EFI connector to connector caps and was getting .2-.3 ohms at each cap.  Crazy Frog's trouble shooting guide says that I should be seeing values between 4 and 16 ohms, depending on which cap is being measured.  

So, I think that I must have a break in the wire between pin 12 and the injector caps.  I can see how this might have happened since I moved the location of the EFI box and in doing that the wire does go around a somewhat tight turn now.  In other words, I think I might have broken the wire that goes to the fuel injection caps.  

Before I cut into the wiring that plugs into the EFI looking for the break, could someone tell me if I seem to be on the right track?  Would greatly appreciate it. Or, of course, whether there is something else I need to look at first.  Thanks in advance.


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

26Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:51 am

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
@KJustin wrote:Looks like I have power at the injector caps (I only tested one--do I need to check all?). Just to be sure I did this right, Ithe LED lit/pulsed when one side was earthed and the other was on the female side of the socket. It didn't matter which side of the female socket. Same result on both sides/pins.
.......
That doesn't sound right to me. Does it light or does it pulse? You only need to test one as they are wired in parallel. Sounds like you might've had the LED around the wrong way... would explain the same result on both pins??

Try testing impedance between fuse 6 and pin#12 on the FICU plug. Fuse 6 is connected to pin#87 of the FI relay. It should read around 4Ω with all your injectors connected. This will tell you that your injectors are connected to pin#87* of the FI relay so providing that relay is working you will get power to the injectors and thru to the FICU where its switched to earth. It will also tell you if your injector coils are intact. Higher impedance will indicate a problem with 1 or more injector coils.

You could also measure for voltage on fuse 6 to earth as that's whats coming out of the relay.

Sounds to me like you are on the right track.

One thing you could check is the connection under the tank where the FI harness plugs into the main harness. Give it a good clean and deoxidize.
Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Fi_har11


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

27Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:58 am

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
@KJustin wrote:
Before I cut into the wiring that plugs into the EFI looking for the break, could someone tell me if I seem to be on the right track?  Would greatly appreciate it. Or, of course, whether there is something else I need to look at first.  Thanks in advance.
DON'T DO THAT!!!


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

28Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:03 am

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
I just checked with the LED again, and it is lighting when I press the starter, not pulsing.  What does that mean?


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

29Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:13 am

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
If you are testing from the relay side of the injector plug to earth it means you are getting power to the injector plugs.
If you are testing across both the injector plug connections... something is stuffed

Do the impedance test as I described above. That will quickly tell you if your injector coils are ok or not.
EDIT: .... and whether you have connection from the FI relay thru the injectors to the FICU plug.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

30Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:28 am

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
I got the LED on by taking one wire to earth and the other on the injector plug.  When I tried LED to both sides of the injector plug, no light.  I think that is what I should see, right?

I'm confused on how to do the impedance test.  Where do I find fuse 6?


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

31Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:53 am

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
@KJustin wrote:I got the LED on by taking one wire to earth and the other on the injector plug. It should only light when connected to one side of the injector plug. I'm not sure which one but I could work it out for you if you want.

When I tried LED to both sides of the injector plug, no light.  I think that is what I should see, right? No. It should be flashing when you bridge the injector plug connector with the LED.
This may mean that there is a bad connection at the FICU connector. HAVE YOU CLEANED AND DEOXIDIZED THAT CONNETOR. Its a common problem.
Or you have a bad earth connection from the FICU. This is really common too.
Or your FICU is kaput (unlikely).


I'm confused on how to do the impedance test.  Where do I find fuse 6? Fuse 6 is the 6th fuse down from the top (2nd from the bottom). Behind the left side cover. Set your DMM to the lowest Ω range. You don't need to pull it out. You can get to the connection from the top of the fuse.
Or you could measure between pin#9 and pin#12 on the FICU plug (count the pins including spaces from the cable end)


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

32Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:11 am

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
OK, I'm definitely not getting the right LED light at the injector plug.  When I bridge the two female pins inside I get nothing when cranking the starter.  So, that's the problem.  Now to track down the cause!

I did the impedance test by checking pin 9 to pin 12.  Exactly 4 ohms.  I tried to do pin 12 to fuse 6 and got no reading.  Is that a problem?

I have not cleaned and deoxidized the FICU connector.  Obviously I should do that, in addition to doing the same on the main earth under the tank and all other connectors under there.  Everything looks pretty good, but I perhaps looks are deceiving?  What is the best way to do that cleaning/deoxidization?

I suppose the fact that I am asking this question is a sign that maybe this is the problem.


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

33Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:22 am

Holister

Holister
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@KJustin wrote:When I tried LED to both sides of the injector plug, no light.  I think that is what I should see, right?
Continued from above.... It could also mean that you have a bad connection to pin#8 of the ICU under the tank at the head stock. Clean and deoxidize that plug and socket as well.
Or you aren't getting a signal from the Hall Effect sensors.
But check connectors and earth connections first. There's the main one under the tank and the GB.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

34Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:47 am

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
@KJustin wrote:OK, I'm definitely not getting the right LED light at the injector plug.  When I bridge the two female pins inside I get nothing when cranking the starter.  So, that's the problem.  Now to track down the cause! Cool Cool

I did the impedance test by checking pin 9 to pin 12.  Exactly 4 ohms. Check CoolI tried to do pin 12 to fuse 6 and got no reading.  Is that a problem? Probably not??? but may mean something??? Need to think about that. Could you test again. Fuses are exposed to the elements. Could be that you didn't get a good connection with your probe. Give it a scratch. Cleaning fuses has known beneficial effects.
I have not cleaned and deoxidized the FICU connector.  Obviously I should do that, in addition to doing the same on the main earth under the tank and all other connectors under there.  Everything looks pretty good, but I perhaps looks are deceiving?  What is the best way to do that cleaning/deoxidization? Just because they look ok doesn't mean anything. Connections you can take apart like the main earth under the tank, clean with fine emery paper and then treat with electrical cleaner (isopropyl alcohol). Brake cleaner is the same. Or best to use Deoxit . Treat all plug connections with cleaner/deoxit and finish with WD40 or similar.
Don't forget the ICU plug and socket under the tank as well.


I suppose the fact that I am asking this question is a sign that maybe this is the problem.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

35Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:49 pm

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
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I'm going to do a thorough cleaning of all electrecical connections tonight, if I can (at work now and know I'm working late--have to pay for all of this foolishness somehow!). If not tonight, then as soon as I can.  Sounds like maybe I should clean my fuses as well.

Although I am going to focus on the cleaning, I do have one question: above you mentioned that the Hall Sensor could be an issue.  I thought if I had spark (which I do) then that meant that the Hall Sensor was OK?  But, as you can tell, I'm a total noob at this electrical stuff, so maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Even though I haven't solved the problem yet, I wanted to say thanks and express my gratitude to you Kaptian Holister.  I'm way closer thatn if I had tried to attack this on my own.


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

36Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:03 pm

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
Re: HES. Probbaly right there if you are getting good spark. But best to clean everything up first and worry about that when and if you need to.

Keep on top of your battery while the bike isn't running especially if you've been using it to crank the motor, but don't over charge it.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

37Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:26 am

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
Alright, I cleaned all the various electrical connections. At the main earth I used 220 sand paper, sprayed with deoxit. Everything else I sprayed with deficit and plugged then unplugged a few times.

I tested at the injector cap with the LED and was seeing a very distinct flash when I pressed the starter. Then nothing while holding the starter, then another flash when I let go of the starter.

On a whim I put the tank back on with the injectors out of the block to see if they'd spit gas. No gas came out except for one small spit at the end when I let off the starter button (also when my LED flashed in the prior test). That's an improvement but I doubt enough to run the bike--I didn't bother to put the injectors back into the block.

Any ideas what to do next? I wonder if maybe I need to just clean things better than I did?


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

38Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:40 pm

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
Been away for 2 weeks and spent the whole day yesterday riding back home so haven't been able to get back to you on that.

Hopefully you cleaned the FICU and ICU connector plugs as well. It may be worth checking that the FICU plug clip holding the plug in place is properly securing the plug. If not bend it slightly in.

The next thing to do is test the connections at the FICU plug. You'll find instructions on how to do this HERE. Its about ¾ the way down the page called LE-Jetronic (EFI) test:
1 or 2 of these you've already done. After that, there are other instructions further up the page on testing the ICU plug which is located under the tank at the head stock. Its a little tucked away in there but the plug comes off easily. When replacing that plug make sure the rubber boot is properly in place. I think your bike is naked so the ICU will be more exposed to the weather.

When testing the FICU and the ICU make sure you are testing with your DMM at the plug connections and not the unit itself.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

39Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:46 pm

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
Glad you are back. I'm testing the EFI. I don't understand how to test the pins that require voltage tests. One probe goes on the pin. I've tried the other on the frame, engine, battery negative and pin 13 ground and don't seem to get any reading. What am I doing wrong?

Also on the water temp resistance reading my multimeter says 3.9 on the 20k setting. Is that correct? Bike is cold and ambient temp is about 13 degrees c, maybe a bit less.

Sorry for the basic questions.

Air flow readings are all good and pin 12 with various injectors plugged and unplugged all checks out.


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

40Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:07 pm

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
Update, I'm getting voltage readings now by bridging to pin 13 as ground. Here's what I'm seeing:

Pin 1: no reading (but my meter may not be sensitive enough)
Pin 2: 25.5
Pin 3: 25.5
Pin 4: 18.3
Pin 9: 25.5
In all cases my multimeter is set on 200.

Not sure what all this means. Would welcome analysis and advice.
Pin 4: 25.5


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

41Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:24 pm

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
@KJustin wrote:Glad you are back. I'm testing the EFI. I don't understand how to test the pins that require voltage tests. One probe goes on the pin. I've tried the other on the frame, engine, battery negative and pin 13 ground and don't seem to get any reading. What am I doing wrong?
You need to switch your DMM to dc volts on the 20V range and place the + probe (red) on the pin and the other to a good earth or pin 13. Follow the instructions as per the 'Testing Mode' for each item in the table. Pin 2 & 3 are from the TPS which you could just disconnect for the time being anyway (SEE NOTE BELOW). For Pin 1 you'll need to switch your DMM to the mili-volt range (200m on mine). The others should read 12V

Also on the water temp resistance reading my multimeter says 3.9 on the 20k setting. Is that correct? Bike is cold and ambient temp is about 13 degrees c, maybe a bit less.
If you check that value against the table 'Water Temperature Sensor Values' a bit further down the troubleshooting page you'll see it's good. Very Happy

Sorry for the basic questions.

Air flow readings are all good and pin 12 with various injectors plugged and unplugged all checks out.

RE: Throttle Position Switch (TPS). When the throttle is wound right off this switch shuts down the fuel injection. Try disconnecting this, it could be a fix. Its located at the rear end of the throttle bodies. There's a wire clip which is a little difficult to remove only because its awkward but it comes off easy enough. There's info about how the TPS works about ¼ the way down the troubleshoot page. Basically you should hear the sw click-in the moment you start to turn the throttle.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

42Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:34 pm

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
If you test again with the right voltage range you'll probably get correct readings.
If the TPS disconnected does not give you a fix and all the other FICU pin test ok then you'll need to test the ICU plug in the same way. Instructions on that same page.

I'm out on business for the afternoon, hopefully someone else can step you thru that.

You haven't mentioned but hopefully you've cleaned/deox the FICU and ICU plugs and sockets???



Last edited by Kaptain Holister on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:57 pm; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

43Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:36 pm

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
Oh boy, do I feel like an idiot! Was on AC instead of DC on the MM. will have to retest later, family duties calling at the moment. But I've tried disconnecting the TPS before and it didn't help. Also hear the click you describe. I'm thinking that's not the issue, but will double check.


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

44Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:16 am

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
SOLVED!!!!😄😄😄😄

It was an unseated ICU plug (the one near the head stock). I had neglected to clean it before and decided to do it tonight since I forgot it before. When I went to pull it apart, I found that it had become unseated on one side. Pushed it back together and I was getting pulsing at the injector caps with my LED, just like I'm supposed to. Chasing this down was maddening, but I am glad for the knowledge I obtained. Probably have increased my knowledge of K bike electronics 100 fold.

Couldn't fire the bike up to be certain because I need a set of O rings for my injectors to reinstall. I have them on the way by mail order. Should get them tomorrow.

Kaptain Hollister, thank you for your help. You are a true gentleman and I appreciate your diligence in responding and extraordinary patience putting up with my obvious lack of knowledge. If I can ever be of assistance to you in any way, please let me know.


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

45Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:19 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Life time member
Life time member
Its a learning curve but the most impressive thing is how everyone is so helpful no matter what. A lot about the Ks seems to be the connections rather than the components themselves. I have been there too with that same unit in exactly the same way. But the knowledge gained is most useful because you now know the electrics blindfold.

An excellent outcome. Surprised--o:


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

46Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:23 am

Holister

Holister
Life time member
Life time member
Good news. cheers Often its something very simple but things can seem pretty obvious in hindsight.
It can also be a bit slow doing it step by step on a forum.

Quite right Olaf. Konnections are so important.


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

47Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:11 am

KJustin

KJustin
Silver member
Silver member
Just wanted to close the loop and let you know that I got my injector o rings in the mail today, installed them and the bike fired right up. Took a nice little ride after work this evening. Great to be back on the road. Thanks again!


__________________________________________________
1985 K100 Cafe Racer (formerly an RT), VIN 0051736
    

48Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:31 am

charlie99

charlie99
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woohoo !  nice result ...and great persistence from the contributors

often is the case that another set of eyes ...could have picked up the defect .....its a "looking at it for too long and so hard" that often discounts simple issues

im forever thankful that I have had a mate at hand during big work reassembly situations ...thanks alby


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OBike won't start--help: SOLVED Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

49Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:44 am

K75cster

K75cster
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Good news, and just a bump when fiddling caused it? when the tank came off?


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

50Back to top Go down   Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Empty Re: Bike won't start--help: SOLVED Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:17 am

rosskko

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Excellent work. It is always the simple things, unless it isn't.

Just as a courtesy KJustin, if you edit the title in your first post and put 'solved' then others who may have a similar problem can look at the thread and know there is a conclusion and hopefully get some good advice along the way.

Enjoy the ride

rosskko


__________________________________________________
1986 K100RT VIN 0093801K100RT with summer fairing for a northern visitor

Basic/2 6308802K100CJ  05/1988

K1100RS 0194321
    

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