Ok here it goes. My 'K' has been sitting for a while (12 months or so) while i have been doing some 'rejuvenation'. Wheels powder coated, tank polished, new handle bars, new break cylinder, etc, etc. I have started it from time to time just to keep things lubricated. I last started it a couple of months ago. The battery wasn't great when i started this project and needs replacing (new one coming tomorrow). I used a disconnected 'ok' car battery to jump start my K if required with no problem.

So yesterday i thought it was a good idea to 'kick' her over one more time to make sure every thing is working before the new battery gets installed. Connected the car battery with jumper leads turned on the ignition all lights came on, neutral, gear indicator, etc. Hit the start button but nothing, again and again. Disconnected the jumper leads and reconnected,  now it appears that the neutral light, gear indicator and battery light no longer function. ???

I pulled the starter motor out and connected it straight to the battery and it works. Put it back in, hooked everything up again but nothing. No clicking of the relay when i press the start button... I tried to pull the clutch lever and i can hear the relay click but no turning of the starter motor.

i replaced all the fuses, still the same. The relays appear to be ok lights work, horn works, indicator works, fuel pump sounds like is works. But starter wont turn over and neutral light, gear indicator and battery light no longer light up. I'm at a loss and not big on electrical issues.

Please help

Sounds to me that the problem is in the power supply circuit to the instrument,
starter +++.

Check fuse #1 one more time, measure on both sides of the fuse with ignition on.
If OK, next to check is if you have power on the green/black (not the black/green)
wire behind the instrument.

Thanks Inge, I'll have to pick up my multimeter tomorrow and will check.

Just picked up my multimeter, checked fuse #1 (new fuse) on both sides with ignition on, all good. Checked power on the green/black wire behind the instruments, got power.

Possibly poor contact at the instrument cluster connector is causing the failed indicators; all the failing indicators are common to the left connector in the instrument cluster (pins 1-12), including the start enable wire.  Reseat the connectors on the back of the instrument.

Use the multimeter to see if power appears on the main contacts of the starter relay when you pull the clutch and press the start button.  That will indicate whether power is able to get to the starter motor.

I reset the connectors a couple of times and did it again, but still no neutral, gear counter & battery lights. Nor do i hear the fuel pump or starter relay engaging unless i pull the clutch lever.

I checked that power is going to the starter relay, all good. Power to the starter motor, not so much.

I opened the starter motor relay to see if it works. I reconnected it without the cover to see if the contacts connect when pulling the clutch and pressing the start button. I appears that the relay connects then disconnects, connects then disconnects while I'm holding down the start button. But never long enough to engage the starter motor. 

Again i bridged the stater motor to the battery direct and it turns. Just to make sure that it works.

have you installed your new battery?

No, not yet. Delivery was delayed till later today. But connecting to the car battery with jumper leads should give me plenty of volts to kick it over, I would think.

Cranking and/or running with a dud bat can cause damage and overload your alternator. Best to get your new bat in there asap to be safe.

While you have the relay open... do the contacts look burnt?
OK, you have power to the relay and the contacts are moving but are they making proper contact allowing power to the starter. Connect your DMM probes to power terminals on the relay in place and leave the connector from the switch in place.



Use the diode/continuity setting (diode symbol) on the DMM. Press the starter button, contacts close and you should get a beep from the DMM indicating continuity and power is going thru the contacts. If you didn't get a beep or you don't have a diode setting, switch to the ohms setting (lowest) which should give a reading of around 0.3 ohm indicating miniscule resistance and hence continuity. If you aren't getting continuity when the contacts close they may need cleaning or they're burnt out.

Just a long shot but there could be something happening with the load shed relay. Try swapping with the horn relay... theyre the same.

OK So i'm a little embarrassed right now :pale: . I finally got my new battery this afternoon. Put it in and my 'K' is ALIVE...

I still don't understand how? But who am I to question why. 

I like to apologize to all. This should have been my first step before trying to jump start a dud battery. 

Now I still have the remaining issue of no neutral light, gear indicator, battery light and 'nothingness' when pressing the start button without pulling the clutch.

All the above was working fine before i started to jump start the old battery....yes, this also could have been a 'non issue' if i just waited for the new battery installation. But that's in the past now. Any suggestions (if you are still willing to speak to me)?

The only ones that wont talk to you are the ones that have never made a dumb mistake.
I am not at home with all my stuff but an educated guess says to me that there is an earthing problem so check out the earth on pin 13 of the plug into the back of the cluster. I think that is the earth that services the GPI.

About the instrument, my coin is still on the main power supply to the instrument
as it have the same wire in common (green/black), and the charge warning lamp
is not grounded in the instrument.

If your BMU warning lamp and the oil pressure warning lamp still functions,
the problem (open circuit) is internal in the instrument.

"The only ones that wont talk to you are the ones that have never made a dumb mistake."

I better start talking to you Oliveri!

I'm glad the bike is running!

Oliveri wrote:OK So i'm a little embarrassed right now :pale: . I finally got my new battery this afternoon. Put it in and my 'K' is ALIVE...

I still don't understand how? But who am I to question why. 

I like to apologize to all. This should have been my first step before trying to jump start a dud battery. 

Now I still have the remaining issue of no neutral light, gear indicator, battery light and 'nothingness' when pressing the start button without pulling the clutch.

All the above was working fine before i started to jump start the old battery....yes, this also could have been a 'non issue' if i just waited for the new battery installation. But that's in the past now. Any suggestions (if you are still willing to speak to me)?

Yay! Good news.

Nothing to do with your instrumnet lights, but it would be worth opening up the starter relay when you get time just to make sure the contacts aren't burnt and check the charge voltage on the alternator. These things can be damaged by a dud bat.

Just out of interest. What battery did you get, A/h and CCA rating?

Cheers

What makes you think we wouldn't speak to you? The great thing about the forum is we all learn different things and enjoy the K. There are now a few things you have done to your K that will make it more reliable in the future and you now know more about it and can pass on the knowledge.

A habit of pulling in the clutch lever before hitting the start button is a good one. Apart from the safety factor it's less load on the starter...Its a habit I have always had and do the same in a manual car.

If I am not mistaken, you need to pull the clutch if the transmission is not in neutral to energize the starter motor.  That should go away when you get the neutral light working.  As was mentioned, it is good practice to pull the clutch when starting anyway.

Point-Seven-five wrote:If I am not mistaken, you need to pull the clutch if the transmission is not in neutral to energize the starter motor.  That should go away when you get the neutral light working.  As was mentioned, it is good practice to pull the clutch when starting anyway.

Correct too....so if your neutral light is not working.......you can avoid fixing it...Mine is erratic but that does not create any problems.

Thanks everyone, 

Inge, I have checked the green/black wire and it appears that I've got power going through it. 

blaKey, thanks for talking to me & Yes very glad its running.

Kaptain, Yes had the relay open (still is) cleaned the contacts a little and looks OK. The battery i got is a Shorai LFX18L1 - BS12 (18 Ah & 270 CCA). I'm changing the rear end of my K, so the battery is tiny, super light and can be mounted in any angle. I just checked the alternator and that's not looking good. Thanks for the tip to check it.
 
....And yes guys i agree it's a good habit to pull the clutch while starting. I also have the habit of doing it in my cars. The light not working is no big deal to me but i still would like to find out why and fix it if possible.

However, it appears i'm going to have a busy weekend since the alternator is not working now.

Is 270 CCA enough? Sounds small to me.

According to my maual,  '87 on require a 25ah battery minimum (up to '86... 20ah). If you have ANY accessories you'll require at least 28 ah
As far as I know the cca should be 360cca.

19ah / 270cca.... You'll find it very difficult to maintain a decent charge on this battery after a short while. It will overload your alternator = problems down the road.

Just noticed your comment about your alternator not looking good. That could be down to the under spec'd (low ah) battery. Less than 13.8 V from the alternator @ +2000rpm can indicate the battery is not up to the task.

I know nothing much about lithium batteries and how they stand up to stress but they have a habit of catching fire and this could be just the situation where that happens. Also it would be a shame to end up damaging it. 

Anyone, please weigh-in here if I'm 'off piste'.

EDIT: This may not be correct in Oliveri's case. Apparently its the Lithium ion (Li-ion) batteries which can heat up and catch fire. Oliveri has a Lithium iron (LiFePO4).
Read about it here

Here is an earlier thread about the battery https://www.k100-forum.com/t8871-which-battery-to-buy  and i did install a new regulator.

the battery light not working is an issue

it acts as the exciter circuit to the field windings in the alternator .....so   beware    your new battery might not be charging properly
I wouldn't be going far at all without resolving this issue

unless you can prove the battery is getting charge below 2000 revs (but above 1100 revs ) and the instruments are another issue in itself

 I wonder has someone replaced the lamps with leds ???

they are particularly prone to reverse voltages and intermittent voltage issues ...if there was a bad earth could they have blown up ?

not saying it is ...but worth checking at least



hope that helps

Oliveri wrote:Here is an earlier thread about the battery https://www.k100-forum.com/t8871-which-battery-to-buy  and i did install a new regulator.

As with any information you get from the internet, you need to determine the validity of that information and use it to do your own research and make your own decisions. The debate about lithium bats has been raging for some time and will contine for a while longer.

I just read your previous thread and here are a few things...

• Mossy's bike is an '85 model and so only requires a 20ah bat and I have no idea what cca a pre'86 K100 requires but he may well easily get away with 270cca. He's made the desision to use a slightly smaller 18ah bat instead of a 20ah, and that's his decision. Given that he has a modified earlier model bike, its undoubtably a good choice for him, only he knows.
  
  
• Charlie99's comment... "9 ah might be a bit light when sitting in city traffic...." was refering to the ah rating mossy had chosen. I think the reference to '9' is a typo and probably should've been read as 19 (18ah). (Correct me if I'm wrong please charlie). This was good feedback from charlie. 18ah is a bit on the light side.
  
  
• The battery you initially chose (SSB LH9-B) and linked to in that thread is a slightly higher rated battery with 320cca and possibly might have been ok but it's hard to say... there's no AH rating described.
  

The SSB Powersport website has a sticky on the side which refers to the importance of chosing a lithium battery which corresponds to the size of your existing battery. Other advice recommends swapping ah for ah and cca for cca when buying lithium bats. That's pretty standard for any battery but more relevant for lithium because there seems to be a misconception out there that you can get away with a smaller lithium bat because they pack a punch. Amp for amp they can certainly run for longer than a typical lead acid bat but what's required is its draw down capacity. That is its ability to supply current under load and so the specified ah rating is important.

Your original bat was the correct rating 30ah 360cca

Another option for determining which battery is best is to refer to battery manufacturers recomendations. Most have a make/model guide or search feature on their website.

I have no idea about that dodgey wiring off your alternator or why the PO installed an external voltage reg. The K Bosch alternator has an internal regulator which incorporates the brushes. As commented in that thread, "it looks like poor workmanship". You probably should recify that as a priority. It may have been a work-around for a problem that still exists.

This is just how I see it. I think you need to do your own research and determine whether you have the correct battery or not.

Its always a good idea to place your year and model no. in your signature so everyone can see what you have and try give relevant advice because as you can see there are apples and there are oranges and even sometimes you'll come across the occasional banana.

The Ks that came into Australia had a 30a/h battery or a 18 a/h battery either will work quite well but the 30a/h batteries seem to last a bit longer. If you look at the battery tray there are sections for 2 sizes.
The police bikes AFAIK always had the 30a/h unit and it was optional in the street versions of the K100. The K75 I am not sure but the K75 RT had as standard a 30a/h

Think Boeing Dreamliner battery issue. I had a phone battery do it.

I decided not to use a Lithium Battery because they do explode (so do lead acid batteries) but they burn with a very hot fire when they explode. It's a case of they do burn not might burn when they explode.
They are claiming many years life from them but the best recorded life I could find was 3 years because the chemical actions inside them consume themselves and if you only recharge 3 times or 2000 time it's 3 years max so far and that was just not up to a standard I expect to get from a battery when the only real advantage is low weight.

Oliveri wrote:Now I still have the remaining issue of no neutral light, gear indicator, battery light and 'nothingness' when pressing the start button without pulling the clutch.

All the above was working fine before i started to jump start the old battery....

Inge K. wrote:About the instrument, my coin is still on the main power supply to the instrument
as it have the same wire in common (green/black), and the charge warning lamp
is not grounded in the instrument.

If your BMU warning lamp and the oil pressure warning lamp still functions,
the problem (open circuit) is internal in the instrument.

I'm in agreement with Inge.

First off, you will get "nothingness" when pressing the start button because the neutral detect circuit is not getting power. The lack of a neutral light points in the same symptom because the neutral detect operates the neutral light as well as the start enable.

Second, no battery (charge) indicator points to no power on one side of the bulb. It will also cause the charging problem that Charlie alludes to. The alternator needs the exciter circuit to function and the power within the instrument cluster provides that power. Without the exciter power, the alternator will appear broken/not operating.

The same power feeds other indicators such as the oil pressure, BMU, overtemp, low fuel, choke, tach and speedo. Have you confirmed operation of these functions. For example, does the low fuel lamp illuminate if you simulate low fuel (push down on the tank sensor)? Does the oil pressure light come on if you ground pin 11? Does the tach work? Can you get the speedo to show anything by spinning the back wheel?

You mentioned that the instrument cluster was functioning before jumping the old battery, but stopped working afterwards. I'd bet that the jumping session has blown electronics or burnt a trace on the flexible circuit tape in the cluster. I think it would be wise to open the instrument cluster and start tracing the circuitry from pin 6, testing for continuity or looking for burnt components.

I have just been out at my 93 K75s trying to replicate your problem. The only easy-ish thing I found is that my dash lights go off if I flick the kill switch off, maybe check that when you push the starter it is not shorting the kill switch. I can't start in gear at all, but that just may be a difference in the models.
The battery I have is a Powersonic CB16CL-B. 19AH 280CCA. It is physically a little large, so I had some trouble getting it in, but it was the only one the local bloke had that was big enough. The first one I bought from him lasted five years. The second one lasted five months and the one I have now is the warranty replacement for it.

RicK G wrote:The Ks that came into Australia had a 30a/h battery or a 18 a/h battery either will work quite well but the 30a/h batteries seem to last a bit longer. If you look at the battery tray there are sections for 2 sizes.
The police bikes AFAIK always had the 30a/h unit and it was optional in the street versions of the K100. The K75 I am not sure but the K75 RT had as standard a 30a/h

Hey Rick, I'm just refering to the data that's out there (w/s manual, BMW Rider's manual, parts microfiche) which all say K100s require a 25ah battery. My Haynes says early Ks before 86 take a 20ah but I'm thinking they may have that mixed up with the K75... Haynes!
You have a lot of experience with Ks going back quite a while so how they were imported into Oz at the time I will leave to you mate.

The BMW part no 61211459650 which is a 25ah battery is referenced on all K100 models on realoem.com
My local battery shop auto electrician looked up the K100 in his reference bible and said 30ah.
Battery manufacturers and suppliers seem to recommend a 30ah as its a safer choice for them and imo a much more reliable choice seeing as we're loading our bikes with all sorts of accessories and gadgets these days.
You're quite right saying the 30 ah will last a bit longer. We should get 4 years out of a correctly fitted battery. If an 18ah doesn't last this long then its an indication that it can't keep up with the load. Is it any wonder we see so many K owners with electrical problems when they get down the road.
Anyway... This is how I see it and I'm sure there will be those that disagree. It's all healthy debate mate and in the end we make our own decisions.

Re: the litium battery fire issue. Agreed. It was a big problem for Boeing and their new dreamliner as well as mobile device owners but litium ion (Li-ion) batteries have now been replaced with lithium iron (LiFePO) which have a different chemistry and they say are just as safe as lead acid.
I have to agree with you on the price point of the litium bats. Price/benefit is a big zero unless you're trying to eek out every bit of high performance (you've been there) but for street/road use... not worth the $$$$$$$$$$$ imho but they seem popular with the cafe modifications.

Cheers

robmack wrote: ....
You mentioned that the instrument cluster was functioning before jumping the old battery, but stopped working afterwards.  I'd bet that the jumping session has blown electronics or burnt a trace on the flexible circuit tape in the cluster.  I think it would be wise to open the instrument cluster and start tracing the circuitry from pin 6, testing for continuity or looking for burnt components.

This is what I was was thinking earlier. It would seem like the most likely place to start.
Also, the alternator/starter wiring has been hacked. This could figure into it as well.

WoodyAUK75 wrote:I have just been out at my 93 K75s trying to replicate your problem. The only easy-ish thing I found is that my dash lights go off if I flick the kill switch off, maybe check that when you push the starter it is not shorting the kill switch. I can't start in gear at all, but that just may be a difference in the models.
The battery I have is a Powersonic CB16CL-B. 19AH 280CCA. It is physically a little large, so I had some trouble getting it in, but it was the only one the local bloke had that was big enough. The first one I bought from him lasted five years. The second one lasted five months and the one I have now is the warranty replacement for it.

That sounds right. It shouldn't start in gear unless you have the clutch disengaged (lever in).
According to realoem, 19ah would be the correct rating for your 93 K75s.

The SSB are the Lithium ion are the ones I specifically checked out but many of the other brands also reared their heads and all were ION type
"SSB PowerSport Lithium Ion Polymer Batteries are an extremely light weight battery designed for starting applications and are a completely dry battery making them spill-proof and leak-proof. You have to pick one up for yourself to truly understand how light they actually are compared to normal lead acid batteries. They are truly amazing."


Link to Ebay listing where I took the above paragraph

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SSB-LITHIUM-MOTORCYCLE-JET-SKI-SEA-DOO-GTX4-GTI-GTX-RXP-RXT-540CCA-BATTERY-/251869443019?_trksid=p2054897.l4275

Can I throw some battery info into the discussion?

In my experience with marine electrical systems when it comes to starting, the only battery spec that counts is the cold cranking amperes(CCA).  Ampere hour capacity mostly refers to how long you can leave the lights on before you can't get enough current to start the engine.  Or how long you can crank before the battery runs out of power.  

Normally, depending on how the battery is built, more AH gives more CCA, but there are ways to build a battery for high CCA for a given AH rating.  Starting batteries for large diesels are an example of this design.  On the other end of the spectrum is a golf cart battery which has large AH capacity but low CCA since it doesn't have to spin a starter.   A lot of the boats I work on have both kinds of battery.

How much battery capacity is normally used to start your engine?  Assume that the starting current is the CCA spec or 380 amps.  In a normal start, the starter motor runs for about 1-2 seconds. 

2 seconds is 1/1800 of an hour.  Times 380 CCA = 0.21 AH or about 0.66% of a 30 AH battery's capacity.  If you have an 18 AH battery you will have used about 1.0%.  Not much of a difference.

Once the engine starts and the alternator starts charging, the electrical system will be drawing about 15 amps to run the lights and the engine.  The alternator will be charging the battery at about 2-4 amps.  At that rate, all the power removed from the battery will be replaced in approximately 3-6 minutes, or about the time it takes to fully warm up the engine. 

Dirty terminals, bad grounds, and worn brushes will kill a battery in that they all work to prevent putting a full charge on the battery.  Anything less than a full charge allows the plates to sulfate which further reduces the amount of charge it can hold and also contributes to the amount of self discharge the battery will experience between charge cycles. 

A well maintained electrical system and an engine that starts easily will add years to the life of even the cheapest battery.  Conversely, even an oversized battery will have a short, unhappy life on a bike that is hard to start and has dirty, corroded electrical connections.

Probably not to the same extent, but I also work on boats a bit, as well as being a qualified mechanic.
I endorse Point Seven-five's post on batteries. Well put.

Bill

Addendum to above post:

When troubleshooting a starting problem where you do a lot of cranking without getting the engine to run it is critical to put the battery on a charger as soon as you stop working, especially if you won't be returning for several days.

Leaving a battery with reduced charge for even a couple days will reduce it's ability to take and hold a charge, leading to a downward spiral that will shortly end in a dead battery that cannot be resurrected. 

Even if you get it running but can't take it out for an extended ride it is a good idea to connect the charger.

Point-Seven-five wrote:Leaving a battery with reduced charge for even a couple days will reduce it's ability to take and hold a charge, leading to a downward spiral that will shortly end in a dead battery that cannot be resurrected. 

... unless you have one of those newer desulphating battery chargers that reverses the downward cycle.

Thanks again, i appreciate all the info. On the battery debate, this bike will have a 'cafe' style conversion that's the main reason for the type & size of the battery chosen. Time will tell if it will cause any problems. 

The main issue being ' no charge' coming from the alternator appears to stem back to the original owner and the messy quick fix that was mentioned in the previous post earlier. I have replaced the regulator with a new one but it appears that there is a bigger issue with the alternator. I have checked the battery bulb in the instrument cluster and that is fine. Just took the alternator to a auto electrician & he confirmed that there was a problem. He will let me know what is going on later today.

Inge K. wrote:About the instrument, my coin is still on the main power supply to the instrument
as it have the same wire in common (green/black), and the charge warning lamp
is not grounded in the instrument.

If your BMU warning lamp and the oil pressure warning lamp still functions,
the problem (open circuit) is internal in the instrument.

Does the BMU warning lamp and oil pressure warning lamp function when you
turn on the ignition?

The BMU not, but the oil pressure light works.

Is the BMU relay installed?

Yes, the BMU relay is there.

I assuming that the BMU warning light did function earlier.......

The circuit inside the instrument that are feed from the earlier mentioned
green/black wire to pin 6 splits in different directions inside the instrument.
Along the same path is the GPI PCB, BMU lamp and tachometer PCB.

So if your tacho don't work either, you have an open in that part of the circuit.

Thanks Inge, The tacho has never worked since i bought the bike. This wasn't a great concern as i wanted to replace it anyhow. But now i will check for an open circuit (somehow). The alternator has a problem and that is getting fixed by the auto electrician. Thanks again for all the info.

Check the path between the two yellow circles. Pay especially attention to
the bottom of pin #6....galvanic reaction between the positive pins and
the conducting film is not unusual.

Checked for galvanic reaction looks good, all clean. Checked path of pin #6, has continuity. 

Try to put power to pin #6 and ground to pin #13 (top, right, in the pic).

When you then ground pin #14 the BMU light should show.
When you ground pin #2,3,4 the GPI should show 0 and the neutral light show.

You got it Inge, that's exactly what happens. So i'm assuming that the instruments are Ok?

As you have measured that you have power at the green/black wire to pin #6,
I would suspect that you have a bad connection between the pin and the contact
inside the multiconnector.

But it doesn't make sense that the oil pressure lamp earlier did function, as it also
is powered from the same circuit.            

Cleaned all the contacts on the instrument cluster and cleaned the two multiconnectors. Put the repaired alternator back on and 'happy days'. It all lights up like a Christmas tree. 

Thanks again for all the tips and info, I've now become an 'expert' in diagnosing my electrical system.  

I'm now trying to solve the non functioning Tacho issue.

First you can check the connections, and if you have a signal.
The signal comes from the front coil via a black/blue wire to the instrument.