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1Back to top Go down    Spooky start on Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:16 pm

gunsports

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I've had my K100 for exactly one month now. Last Saturday I decided to do a service on the bike as it has not been serviced for near two years. Oil filter was replaced by BMW OEM part, as was the air filter. I changed all the oils as per spec and also the plugs (NGK D7EA).I noticed that the plugs removed were NGK D8EA's. Plugs were still in a very good condition; if a little sooty. Bike ran beautifully after the service.

On Sunday I filled up with petrol. As the previous owner was at high altitude, he used 93 oct unleaded petrol in the bike. I re filled with 95 oct leaded fuel. Bile still ran well; but I had a puncture (rear wheel) which laid the bike up till today; when the bike shop came to fetch it to repair the wheel.

Just before they collected the bike, I started it up and it struggled to idle. Now normally, the bike idles at just above 1000rpm when warm; but today, even with the choke full on, she struggled to reach 900rpm. Idling was very rough; as if she was only firing on three cylinders. As the bike heated up, idling increased slightly and the engine ran a ittle smoother, but still very uneven; as if one plug was not firing correctly. This unevenness persisted; even when revved to 2000rpm.

Now here is the scary part: The engine, especially when still cold, stuttered and died a number of times and then the starter would kick in and start the bike again - withou me near the bike! This happened three times. The engine would die; the starter kicks in and the engine would take again - and then die and be started again.

When I replaced the plugs, I was carefull about the plug wires. In fact, I replaced the plugs one at a time; so not as to mix up the plug wires. So I doubt if it could be this.

When the bike was on the trailer, I told the shop owner about this and then started the bike again. She started normally and idled smoothly. I did not rev the bike to see if the unevenness would show higher up in the rev range.

Now, I am a noob when it comes to this bike and frankly, what happened this afternoon scares me a little as I do not want to damage the bike through my lack of knowledge.

Any suggestions?

    

2Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:45 pm

Comberjohn

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Gulp! Is the previous owner still alive?  Exactly how high an altitude did he live?
Time to get the ouija board out!


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Life is not a rehearsal.

2010 R1200GS
1986 K100 Silver(gone)
2012 K1600GT(gone)
1984 K100RT Madison Silver(gone)
1989 K100LT Stratus Grey(gone)
1984 K100 Red(gone)
http://www.johnsdrivingschool.co
    

3Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:29 pm

AL-58

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Using NGK plugs I have one question. Did you fit the screw on tips or are you running just the bare threaded section? The screw on tips are required for the plug caps to make correct contact.

Al


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'87 K100RS/HRD sidecar (1100 motor)  sc25 
'92 K100RS-16v (Paint it Black)

'87 K100RT with Paralever backend

"When I'm too old and too foolish to handle a sidecar I'll buy a Sportsbike"

    

4Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:22 am

RicK G

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The contacts of the starter relay are welded shut from trying to start with a battery that isnt up to scratch. The starter turns slowly because the voltage is low and as a result drags more current than the relay can handle and bingo the contacts weld shut.
The bike starts and the starter keeps going but because a sprag clutch is used doesn't remain connected to the engine, the engine stops and zip the starter starts it again and on and on and on.
Hate to ruin a good story but it isn't haunted after all.
as for the bad idle check the plug tops as AL has suggested it is a common problem as most plugs now days dont need the little caps.


__________________________________________________
If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

5Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:39 am

charlie99

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aye ! sounds about right rick ..


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

6Back to top Go down    The saga continues ... on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:35 am

gunsports

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In response to the previous posts: No, the previous owner is very much alive - and he is a friend of mine, unless he sold me a lemon.

The plugs were purchased without the little tips but the tips on the old plugs were removed and used on the new one's. The old plugs were a little black and according to the manual, a sign of an over rich mixture. I may mention that the bike; when it was still behaving itself, idled at just over 1000 rpm; I'd guess about 1050 - 1100.

Resurrection (auto start) does not occur every time the bike dies. Today, in about 10 starts, it only happened once. Is the starter relay still toast? If so, is there a BMW OEM alternative?

After the bike shop repaired my tyre, I again tried to start the bike. It started but the idling was terrible. It sounds as if one cylinder is not firing. Also, there is a very strong smell of petrol; and black smoke from the exhaust which the mechanic says the engine is being flooded. He claims the bike is actually drowning in fuel.

I had the spark plugs replaced (again) with NGK D8EA's; which were in the bike before it was serviced; and which gave good service. In addition, I had the plugs bench tested before installation, as well as the HT leads. After fitting, they checked and there were no shorts (earth) onto any of the body parts (or so they say).

What get's me is this: Before the service, the bike ran well. After the service, the bike ran well. 2 days later; this.

The closest BMW dealer/repair facility is more than 100k's away from me and these guys are ridiculously expensive. I really do not want to (no can I afford to); pay the purchase price to a service centre to repair the bike; hence me begging for assistance here.

Please help.

    

7Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:28 pm

Brad-Man

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Sounds like you de3finitely need to replace the startere relay and possibly the battery - have it load tested.

You might try running some fuel injector cleaner through the bike to see if it can clean up one or more injectors that may be stuck open...

    

8Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:11 pm

RicK G

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Any good auto electrical store will be able to get a replacement relay they are a standard of the shelf Bosch relay but BMW has a special batch with the logo stamped onto it and that apparently makes it so much better it is worth 4 times a much.

The over rich problems can be many things but firstly check the tube that goes from #4 throttle body to the fuel pressure regulator. It is a vacuum tube designed to change the fuel pressure at different throttle conditions but if the diaphram is broken it will suck raw fuel directly from the broken FPR diaphram into the #4 cylinder and flood the engine. One other common cause is bad injectors that are jammed open by crud or held open by a faulty ECU or wiring to the ecu. The temp sensor will cause a rich run if it is faulty but not massive flooding.
The Ks are prone to fuel problems more so than other problems mainly because the age of them now is the age that fuel lines and the rubbery components turn up their toes and die.
You may just have to service the whole fuel system.
I buy most of my electrical and fuel components from EME http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/ but depending how importing goes to SA that may or may not be viable for you.


__________________________________________________
If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

9Back to top Go down    When on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:41 pm

ibjman

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When the dealer did the routine Mx, he likely loaded your already questionable battery heavily with a standard test in hopes of identifying a potential failure and saving you some future grief. Unfortunately, even though that test may have indicated a "pass" status, it may have inadvertently pushed your old battery beyond the edge of the abyss.
The now low charge battery caused the starter activity & ruined the starter relay.

Second, you could have gotten a load of contaminated fuel????

    

10Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:55 pm

gunsports

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ibjman wrote:
Second, you could have gotten a load of contaminated fuel????

It would seem that the service station at which I filled the bike has a history of pumping bad fuel - off coarse they deny it. When I told the bike shop owner where I filled up; he told me of any number of bikers he had to rescue along the road with bad fuel from this crowd. (Water leaking into their storge tanks.)

So, it could be bad fuel. If so, do I syphon off and replace? Or do I remove the tank and give it a thorough clean? Also, what else should I look for?

The mechanic brought my bike home this evening. He says it starts bad (as described) and after switching off and letting it stand for a few minutes; starts and runs normally; abet with black smoke from too much fuel. When he got to my home; the same thing. Starts and would not idle. After shutting off and letting it stand a few minutes; starts and runs normally, but hesitates at about 2000 rpm - and plenty of fuel smoke.

    

11Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:22 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf


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Starter relay is most likely gone as they say. I have a spare one sitting at home because I bought a new one as I thought the old one has dud and it wasn't. Its easy to change. Battery has to be good or it will cause problems.

The plugs can fail too. I had a full service and not long after there was bad running on one cylinder. I suspected coils but when I pulled the plugs came to the conclusion it was a plug problem. Two new ones cured it, and they were cheap.


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1992 K100LT 0193214 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Baja Red bought 36,000 now 84,100 miles
    

12Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:47 pm

K-BIKE


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Drain the fuel and look in the bottom of the tank at the low point can you see any beads of what looks like mercury that is water and is from that fill up get some known good gas and put it in and assuming the water did not block your filter it should start that will eliminate bad fuel as an issue.
Regards,
K-BIKE

    

13Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:00 pm

Two Wheels Better

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Just a note: the NGK D7EA sparkies are simply one step hotter than the D8EA and are quite acceptable when being used in a hot climate or if the bike is used regularly in hot n heavy, stop n go traffic.

In fact, I use NGK DP7EA which means projected as the tips are a fraction of a millimetre closer to the piston tops for potentially better, more complete combustion, with no harm-no foul, so far.


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'77 R75/7-1000cc, '87 K100RS, '93 K12 Big Block, '94 R100 Mystic, '03 K1200GT, '04 R1150RT, '06 K1200R, '07 K1200R & '09 K1300GT
    

14Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:37 pm

gunsports

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I went ‘spannering’ this past weekend.

(This is a ‘blow by blow’ report; written so that the more experienced members can see what I did and in need, give guidance.)

I siphoned the ‘bad’ fuel from the tank and then proceeded to remove the fuel pump, pipes and filter. First off, the pump is not OEM, but a VDO unit. The rubber sleeve holding the pump in place is long gone, replaced with, I think, an ingenious solution to a somewhat expensive problem. (As soon as my internet connection is better, I’ll post some pictures.)

This pump is fitted with a micro filter bag, which is a slip fit to the pump intake. There is no way to make a more secure fit and I think this little bag must have come loose; as it was found at the bottom of the pump well; which may have been the cause of my problems.

All of the hoses in the tank were of a good quality, with no evidence of degrading.

The fuel filter is an OEM unit and was reverse flushed. It was not replaced.

The tank interior was unbelievably filthy. In my introduction I mentioned that this bike had stood for 15 years before the previous owner purchased the bike two years ago. He said the bike was ‘serviced’ when he got it. Clearly, the tank was not cleaned. When I dumped the last of the fuel, I had about 2 table spoons of muddy, but very hard particulate come from the tank. This was before I cleaned the tank!

A full can of carburettor cleaner made little difference. I ended up using a kitchen cleaner: Mr Muscle Tile and Grime, and a Scotch 3M green scouring pad. With this combination, I got to about 90% of the crud; except in the far corners where I could not reach. The tank is now mostly bright and shiny. I was tempted to use oven cleaner, but was not sure of its effect on the alloy used in the tank; so I resisted the temptation. Numerous flushing with increasingly warmer water, I ended up using boiling water on the last two flushes and then left the tank in the sun to dry.

Next I removed the battery and checked this. Voltage was 11.75V; this after the bike had stood for 2 days. Before this, the battery had been hammered by attempts to start the bike and it was not subsequently re charged.

The starting relay was checked and found to be working correctly. It is a Bosch (Not BMW marked) unit and seems a recent replacement.

Next, I checked the hoses and fittings to and from the fuel injection system. All were in an excellent condition, leading me to believe they are fairly recent replacements. In fact, I checked all of the hoses that I could reach while the bike was partially disassembled.

The power connections to the injectors were removed, sprayed with switch cleaner, cleaned with ear buds and sprayed again. Some were really cruddy. In fact, just about every connection I could lay my hands on received this treatment.

The fuel injectors came out of the block with some difficulty. The O rings were not rubber, but some type of nylon. They just about popped from their settings like champagne corks. Try as I might, I could not get the injectors free from the fuel rail. Their condition was quite new, so I did not replace them.(I did not have any on hand.)

Three of the injectors looked their 29 years. No 4 (cyl.) appeared brand new, which makes me think it is a recent replacement. They were all squirted with carb. cleaner, dried and replaced. It was quite a job getting the injectors back into place. They fitted very tight and with an audible ‘pop’.

I re assembled everything and added some fresh fuel – and a healthy (over) dose of injector cleaner to the mix.

I knew the battery was not going to have enough cranking power to get the fuel back into the system, so I assisted it with my car’s battery. A few cranks later and she fired up.

Ok, some of the cylinders fired up. The rest were dead. This progressed from two to three cylinders, to four; with lots of black smoke, stutters and back firing along the way. But, it got better and after a few minutes, the bike settled down and was running sweetly. This I kept up for about half an hour; from idle to about 4 – 5000 rpm and she ran without a stutter. In fact, she is running better now than when I got her.

But, I think my battery is toast. It is at the battery shop now for them to test and in need, replace. Ouch!

Whether it was bad fuel or a loose fuel pump filter and a cruddy tank, I do not know. But it seems the problem is sorted.

    

15Back to top Go down    Fuel Filter on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:49 pm

gunsports

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While I was scratching around in the fuel tank, I got thinking: Why place the fuel filter in the tank? The feed hose between the tank and the fuel injection rail has more than enough space for an external, see-through in line fuel filter. This will not only reduce costs (the OEM filters from BMW are expensive), but allow visual inspection of the condition of the filter and is much less of a hassle to replace.

The only possible problem I can see is its proximity to the radiator hose. Will this cause problems?

    

16Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:06 pm

Two Wheels Better

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I doubt you'll find a see-through fuel filter of decent quality which is able to stand the high pressure of the system. Caution there, as a fire while astride the bike out on the road would warm you quickly, but goodonya for sorting out what seems like was the problem.


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'77 R75/7-1000cc, '87 K100RS, '93 K12 Big Block, '94 R100 Mystic, '03 K1200GT, '04 R1150RT, '06 K1200R, '07 K1200R & '09 K1300GT
    

17Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:19 pm

gunsports

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One thing about the bike that has been drving me crazy: one moment it starts and runs beautifully, the next, it sounds like a tractor. I've been through the diagnostics about a 100 times and everything checks out ok. The fuel pump runs and delivers fuel to the injectors. The battery has been replaced and the starter relay opened and checked. (it was fine BTW). There is spark. One moment she runs like a dream, the other not.

But, I forgot about the twin coils. When checking for spark, I kept on pulling no 1 plug and testing this. Nice strong spark. In the week, the bike finally died on me. No amout of checling had any result.

This morning, I decided to test all of the plugs. You guessed it: No 1 & 4 has spark; 2 & 3 has nothing. I removed the coils and cleaned them. Sprayed and cleaned all of the contacts. Reassembled. Nothing: 1 & 4 are ok, 2 & 3 are dead. I still have the old 'black tipped' coils in the bike and read on the forum that these are/were prone to failure and that I should replace with the orange/red tipped ones.

Are there any more tests I can do before I rape my wallet and get new coils?

Also, I see the red tipped coils for sale on E-Bay; usually described as coming from a running bike. Spares are incredibly expensive in SA. For instance; he starter coil from BMW is listed at R1586.00; whereas a Bosch 30A starter coil (The K's is 75A) is listed for R35.00. The coils from the dealer will cost me in excess of R5000.00 for the pair. Should I risk buying on E-Bay?

    

18Back to top Go down    I would on Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:36 pm

ibjman

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With the exception of the paper sticker, the coils are identical. you could switch both small colored primary wires from one coil to the other AND switch the plug leads from one to another.......(effectively exchanging one coil for the other). If the opposite 2 plugs start fireing but the original two stop working, then your absolutely sure that it's something to do with the one coil or the circuit leading to it.....ruling out most everything else.
If we get that far we can go about determining why that coil doesn't fire.
Please let us know what happens
Regards, Ibjman

    

19Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:00 pm

charlie99

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yes defiantly "prove " the failure before spending
but sounds to me that you need to go in under the tank and clean up every thing that connects to the loom

all the connections in there are renowned for corroding up ...possibly hall effect connections ?
work methodically ...clean one then test ...move to the next and so forth
there is nothing worse than trying to fix 1 issue ...but creating more


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

20Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:34 pm

gunsports

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ibjman wrote:With the exception of the paper sticker, the coils are identical. you could switch both small colored primary wires from one coil to the other AND switch the plug leads from one to another.......(effectively exchanging one coil for the other). If the opposite 2 plugs start fireing but the original two stop working, then your absolutely sure that it's something to do with the one coil or the circuit leading to it.....ruling out most everything else.
If we get that far we can go about determining why that coil doesn't fire.
Please let us know what happens
Regards, Ibjman

This afternoon, I switched the wires on the two coils exactly as stated above. Result: no spark on ANY plug. Switched everything back and stil no spark on any of the plugs.

I notice that the yellow wire from the loom enters the one coil and then 'jumps' (doubles) to the other. I guess this is the power source? Also the brown wire is simmilarly doubled. Can I test these wires with my multi meter. I am thinking of using the positive probe on the wire, the negative to ground. Me thinks this should indicate if any power is coming through to the coil. Will this damage anything?

Tomorrow I will tackle the wire loom and plugs under the fuel tank. Anything tolook out for?

    

21Back to top Go down    wires on Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:04 pm

ibjman

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The yellow (I have it as yellow/green) wire supplies constant power to both coils whenever the ign. switch & the Kill switches are in the ON position. You should be able to disconnect both and test either 1 with a simple automotive test light or with your voltmeter. It is important that you test with both unconnected.
Connect your test device to either one (they are hooked together) and turn the key to run. You should see 12V constant power.
The 2 tan wires are just extra grounds to take away any spooky currents that may occur. I believe it should fire with or without them though I've never actually tried that.

The other 2 wires are selective for each individual coil. They supply the intermittent ground to the primary winding in each coil in sequence with the timing data from the Ignition Control Unit (ICU0 taking information on engine position from the front crankshaft Hall sensors.
Each coil gets a ground in rotation through either the Black/blue wire or the Black/red wire as needed.
This ground completes the circuit from the Yellow/Green wire, through the primary winding of the affected coil, thus building up a magnetic field in that coil. When the engine reaches the correct firing position, the ICU, interrupts the ground, thus allowing the magnetic field in that primary winding to rapidly collapse. The collapse of the magnetic field in the primary windings creates a huge high tension voltage across the secondary winding in that same coil, thus sending your big blue fat spark on its way out the top of both towers on that coil.
Let me know if you get the constant power on the yellow wire as described.
Regards, Ibj...

    

22Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:16 pm

gunsports

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I tested the yellow/green wire with my meter and the voltage was 12.75 with the ignition on (same voltage as the battery).

I then tested the resistance of the coils. Primary resistance of both were 3.0 ohms. Secondary resistance were 10.0 and 10.5k ohms respectively.

I've been trying to find bench marks for these coils, but to no avail. These are the 'old' black tipped coils. Are they ok or do they need replacement?

Where to from here?

    

23Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:02 pm

charlie99

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sounds about right

would probably be a good idea to check the high tension leads as well ...that is from each end ...write it down .

but sounds like you have no pulsing from the ecu

have you checked - tested all the fuses ?


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

24Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:36 pm

gunsports

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I will check the HT leads on the morrow. Fuses were all checked and cleaned. They are ok.

ECU: that is the electronic ignition module, correct?

B Vogel's "Bike wont start 1" from the download page shows pin 9 & 14 as the earth leads from the coils to this unit. He says I am to test the voltge (1.5 -4) on the female connector. Is this with the coils assembled and wired and with the starter running? If so, will the starter operate with the EIM disconnected? I am a little unclear as to the exact procedure. Some help will be appreciated.

    

25Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:59 pm

charlie99

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the pulse duration is very small

I guess you could hook up an analogue multimeter to each of the earth switched leads (black lead) and the earth (frame red lead ) disconnected from the coil one at a time .

you should see high resistance ... ( ohms meter on 20 k )

as you hit the starter you should see it pulse to low resistance many times ....but the meter will not be as fast at the pulse so you will see some reduction .....using a digital meter could be confusing ...unless it has an analogue bar scale as well
hope that helps


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

26Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:22 pm

gunsports

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HT leads:
1) 4.87 K ohms
2) 4.86 K ohms
3) 7.65 K ohms
4) 5.0 K ohms

Earth switched leads (coils):
Black/red: 4.19 K ohms
Blue/black: 3.75 K ohms

When the starter was spun, both showed significant drop. You were right, the digital meter is a bit slow to respond to the rapid pulses, but there was a significant drop. (Fuke DT9205A+).

I aso checked and cleaned every connection under the tank I could lay my hands on. Some were really grotty. Also, the fuses seemed loose in their sockets; although they still made contact. Also noticed that none of the fuses were spec. Most were 15 - 25 amp.

On the electronic ignition computer, there are two pins: 9 & 14 that supply power to the coils respectively. Yet, on this bike, there is only one yellow/green power lead to the coils from the loom; with a bridge from one to the other. Will this make a difference?

    

27Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:58 pm

RicK G

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#3 looks a bit higher than it should try to give it a wriggle while the meter is connected it will probably change value as you do it. If it does then replace all if possible.
As for the fuses, the blade type of fuse is well known for going open circuit without actually blowing so it is a good practice to test the fuse with a meter or simply replace all the fuses with new.


__________________________________________________
If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

28Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:25 am

charlie99

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what ?????

only one drive cable ?

omg

what happens is that the ecu switches the earth on and off to each of the coils as separate entities


so that means that there should be 1 cables from each of the coils going to the ecu ....the earth of the ecu can be only one cable

you may have found an obvious issue

ditch cable number 3 its well and trully ......


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

29Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:54 am

gunsports

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I want to be well and truly clear here regarding the wiring to the coil(s).

The coil has two wired connections; one is a yellow/green power lead; the other is either black/red and blue/black respectively. Off course, then there are the plug lead sockets. In addition, there is also an earth wire (brown).

Now: from the bundle of wires that exit at the coils, there is ONE yellow/green wire from this bundle that attaches to the power input of the one coil - and from there, a (wired) bridge to the power input of coil no 2. In other words, there are not two yellow/green wires exiting from the wire bundle. The same with the brown earth wire. Also from this bundle of wires, there is a single black/red wire to the one coil and a single blue/black wire to the other coil. This is how I bought the bike and it ran (and not) and ran again.

Pin 9 & 14 on the electronic ignition module: are these the black/red and blue/black wires? If so, where does the green (power) wire originate from?

    

30Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:31 am

RicK G

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The brown earth wire will earth the core of the coil and the bracket that holds the coils. It is NOT the negative side of the primary winding.
The primary side of the winding has blacl/red and Black/blue and a green wire for the positive. The Black/colour wire is the negative side which is switched by the final stages of the ICU.
BTW it is a good idea to put the model and year of your bike in the signature line that way we all know and you don't have to keep telling us. In this case it can make a difference if the bike is a 16v engine.


__________________________________________________
If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

31Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:03 am

gunsports

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Got it so. Now for a really stupid question: Does the plug wires have to be exactly the same length? I got me some of the copper wired core wire and want to make new leads.

    

32Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:58 am

LWT_Big_Cheese

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No, but they do have to be long enough to reach the plug!


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33Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:05 am

RicK G

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There is a bit more to making new leads than just getting some copper core HT wire.
The leads need to be that 5000 ohms to give a good power transfer to the plug.
We may be using DC here but the ignition coils work much more like an AC transformer and the load needs to have the impedence matched to the impedence of the source of the power. The internal resistance of the coils is 10000 ohms so the leads need to be 5000 ohms each to make 10000 ohms to match the source with the load that way you will get max power transfer and a good fat spark at the plug.  If they are missmatched you can badly over heat the coils and even in extreme cases get a power reflection into the final stages of the switching transistors and overheat them. They dont make much sound when they go pop but you would know that they have done it.
The Blue or Yellow silicone leads that auto shops sell may have the correct resistance. or get the NGK plug caps with the 5000 resistor. There is a lot to it and if they aren't right you can do a lot of expensive damage.
A good auto electrician should know about these things.
If you can get the resistance within 1000 ohms it will be OK but any more and you will start to lose power.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

34Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:52 am

gunsports

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LWT_Big_Cheese wrote:No, but they do have to be long enough to reach the plug!

Jip, figured that one out all by myself .... (Now, if I knew how to put a smiley in here ....)

Rick, I plan to use the caps and ends off the existing leads and just replace the wires. They are still the original OEM stuff and they are still in a very good condition (clean coppers and good rubber). The local auto shops have nothing that approximates what I need for the bike and the OEM's are ridiculous.

The existing leads, bar one, measure as close as dammit to 5 k ohms so, I will assemble one lead and then test its resistance. If it is not correct, I will go the expensive route.

The reason I asked about length is that three of my existing leads are exactly the same length and one is a shorty (no 4). Currently, there is so much excessive wire that these things have to be doubled up under the cover over the plugs. I was interested in some good house keeping mostly. I read that these wires should give a resistance reading of 'about' 5 k ohms per meter. If all are the same length, then obviously, their resistance reading will be the same and more uniform plug to plug.

    

35Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:09 pm

gunsports

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Just an update: The DIY plug leads did not work. I ordered some in from a supplier in the 'States that is mentioned on the site. Friendly fellow and he supplies four leads, post incl. for the price of two locally. Also on its way, a set of 2nd hand orange tipped coils. Good price on those.

When I had a good look at the leeds, I noticed that on two of them, the insultion was split down to the core wire. Could be a reason for poor performance me thinks?

    

36Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:55 am

gunsports

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A few more questions please:

While I am waiting for parts, I want to fix the speedo and also do a compression test on the bike. Currently, the tank is off, and the coils. All power leads to tank and coils are isolated. To check the speedo, I need to turn the ignition on. To check compression, I need to run the starter. The battery is new and fully charged. Is there any risk of damage in switching on the ignition and/or cranking the engine with these power leads disconnected?

Another question. Just after servicing the bike, I was running the engine to warm it up. The bike was idling. While idling, I removed the oil filler cap. the revs immediately fell; but the bike kept on idling. When I returned the cap, the idling increased to normal. What happened here?

    

37Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:48 am

RicK G

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Providing the coils are disconnected from the wiring harness the ICU is safe.
A drop in idle speed is quite normal there and in fact indicates a healthy inlet system.  The crankcase has a positive ventilation system and there should be a partial vacuum in there and when you removed the bung the engine drew a lot extra air and so ran badly.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

38Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:30 am

gunsports

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Just an update: The orange tipped coils arrived today; will test them tonight. Now, the 'new' coils have no connector for the earth wire. What do I do with this earth? Plug wires are still somewhere 'on the water'.

Another: When I bought the bike, the previous owner told me that he had the head lamp wired with the ignition to: when the ignition is switched on, the main beam will also come on. (It is law over here that you travel with the head light on at all times.) But, I was not comepletely happy with this arrangement as; when starting the engine, the starter draws quite a bit of power. With the main beam on at the same time, the power draw on the battery is quite severe. So, I decided to reverse the procedure and make the main beam switchable again.

Undoing the 'connection', I found that they had taken the insulation off ignition, park and main beam wires and then soldered this together. I seperated this and then tested the switch. Nothing. Ended up removing the switch and opening it up. Yip, the switch was US - hence the gippo of the wires. New experience repairing the switch; but it works fine now. The little brass toggle thingy inside the switch that feeds power was all scrunched up. Ended making a new 'thingy' and replacing the spring.

Now: I've checked all of the wires in the looms. They are all ok. But, the outer covering of the looms are pretty shot; especially where they bear against either frame, tank and/or instrument binnacle. Apart from buying new wiring looms, what is the fix for replacing these outer sheaths? I've been thinking of using heat shrink PVC, but there is either a plug or an instrument either end, so this seems a bad idea. Insulation tae will work, but is a grotty fix. Will duct tape work? Ideas will be welcomed.

    

39Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:46 am

RicK G

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I would use heat shrink even if it means cutting and splicing a small section of wire into it.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

40Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:50 pm

charlie99

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there  is a pretty commonly available insulator called spiral wrap
or split tube  ( a corregated plastic tube  with a split along its side  as it suggests )

look them up

both- either  would do well here  and in quite a few sizes

but ...don't forget to wrap electrical tape around both ends of the insulation to stop it from "walking " up the wires during use ..

good luck


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41Back to top Go down    Question on Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:29 pm

ibjman

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gunsports wrote:But, I was not comepletely happy with this arrangement as; when starting the engine, the starter draws quite a bit of power. With the main beam on at the same time, the power draw on the battery is quite severe. So, I decided to reverse the procedure and make the main beam switchable again.

I'm just thinking out loud here and not at all sure about the answer, but.......Doesn't the load shed relay, disable the headlamp during cranking?????

Regards, Ibj...

    

42Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:29 pm

gunsports

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ibjman wrote:
gunsports wrote:But, I was not comepletely happy with this arrangement as; when starting the engine, the starter draws quite a bit of power. With the main beam on at the same time, the power draw on the battery is quite severe. So, I decided to reverse the procedure and make the main beam switchable again.

I'm just thinking out loud here and not at all sure about the answer, but.......Doesn't the load shed relay, disable the headlamp during cranking?????

Regards, Ibj...

No idea. I'm not that up to speed with the bike's electronics. But, from personal observation: the head lamp did not go out when the starter was cranked. I think the head lamp wire; as well as that of the park light, was spliced directly to the kill switch power lead. With the ignition on, the head lamp was on. The only way to shut it off was via the kill switch (with the ignition on). Whether this by pased the load shed relay, I do not know.

I'd go down and check, but the bike's in the garage - at the bottom end of the complex; and it is hozing down with rain right now. Will check the wire colors later (when it stops raining) and report.

    

43Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:34 pm

RicK G

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The load shed relay should do that but it has been "rewired" so hoonose what happens. Backyarders do some strange things sometimes.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

44Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:33 am

gunsports

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gunsports wrote:Just an update: The orange tipped coils arrived today; will test them tonight. Now, the 'new' coils have no connector for the earth wire. What do I do with this earth? Plug wires are still somewhere 'on the water'.
 I still don't know what to do with the earth wire. Can anybody help?

    

45Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:58 am

RicK G

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The black tower coils have been replaced by the orange tower coils. the new coils should have two spade terminals that connect to the wires (pos and neg) that go to the Ignition control unit and a Brown wire which will earth the steel core and alloy holder that attaches to them. That Brown wire should go to the Earth point on the Gearbox just to the rear of the coils where the Negative earth from the battery is connected.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

46Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:54 am

gunsports

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gunsports wrote:
gunsports wrote:Just an update: The orange tipped coils arrived today; will test them tonight. Now, the 'new' coils have no connector for the earth wire. What do I do with this earth? Plug wires are still somewhere 'on the water'.
 I still don't know what to do with the earth wire. Can anybody help?
 Perhaps one should look before asking stupid questions .... My apologies. Found the damn earth connector. Coils fitted.:pale:

    

47Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:04 pm

gunsports

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Mentioned earlier that the back brakes do not work. The brake disk was well below the minimum thickness and even with new brake pads; there was not enouh travel for the pads to contct the disk. Ordered in a new disk from Moto Bins in the UK and because of the cost, settled for the disk made by Grimeca. At about half the price of the OEM, this was a huge saving.

Off course, when removing he disk, one of the mounting bolts stripped its allen head; on a Sat. afternoon! Was forced to remove the final drive in its entirety and take it down to the shop to get the bolt out. Reason for the stuck bolt was that, at some time, the disk and wheel, was subjected to severe acceleration; as the disk had shifted slightly. Also saw that the wheel mounting bolts had left a slight thread impression on the mounting holes in the wheel.

Just to be safe, I did a chemical crack detection on the wheel hub, but everything seems to be ok. Scratching around in the 'odd' bin, I found a replacement bolt which needed some shortening to fit.

At the same time, did the final drive spline lube and am happy to report that the splines are in perfect condition; with a lot of lubrication still on/in the splines. Cleaned up and re lubed.

Fitted everything back together again and bled the brakes. Now I have brakes!

BUT: A lot of the rubbers are shot. The rubber bellows that fit the rear brake master cylinder is toast; as are those on the front master cylinder. Scratching around, I find these rubbers as part of an overall kit; bit not available loose. Is there  fix for replacing just the rubbers. Has anyone made/converted rubbers to fit the K bike and if so; can you share your secrets?

Still waiting for plug leads from a suplier in the US. Taking an awfull long time to arrive. Hopefully, then the bike will be back on the road.

    

48Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:55 pm

gunsports

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Finally everythig arrived. Fitted it all and then tried to start the bike. Nothing. Engine cranks; there is fuel, but no spark. Tear everything down again. Test all the wires. They work; voltage, Ohms are all to spec. Check the ignition module and FI module; they work. Starting to tear my hair out by now. Thinking dark thoughts about scrapping the whole idea and selling the bike off for scrap and/or buying another bike.

Met up with a guy who owns/repairs/restores airheads. He also fixes auto electrical stuff. Told him my tale of woe. He askes lots of questions and eventually asks me: how long do you crank the bike after replacing the petrol tank? I tell him. He says: crank some more, the fuel injection system has bled out; you need to crank till it primes itself again.

So, I cranked and cranked and the bike started! First on two cylinders with lots of misses. Then three and finally, four. Let it idle a while and then revved it a bit. Let it run till the fan came on and then switced off. Started it again and it is smooth.

Seems my problems are sorted. Now to reassemble the bike from all the pieces lying around in my garage. Seems it will be ready for riding this summer. Still have to bleed the front brakes and replace the fork oil though.

Just want to give a special thanks to the members on this site. Had it not been for your help and the information here, I would have been totally lost.

Thanks again.

    

49Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:24 am

CO1637P

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Mira el enlace que pongo por si te sirve de ayuda

http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/...ont-start1.htm

Cuando la moto lleva mucho tiempo sin funcionar y se dejó en buen estado de funcionamiento, los primeros problemas vienen por la dgasolina que se dejó en el depósito de combustible.

La gasolina se descompone, estropeando la goma amortiguadora de la bomba, ensuciando el depósito y conductos. Arruinando la bomba y si llega a los inyectores incluso los estropea.

Por tanto, lo primero que hay que hacer es comprobar y reparar todo lo citado anteriormente y nunca intentar arrancar con esa gasolina.

La bomba de gasolina vale cara pero puede ser sustituida por bombas de automóvil de desguaces.

Pasemos al punto de la batería, si está baja de carga y se intenta arrancar el motor, el rélé de arranque se estropea, así que hay que evitar hacerlo con esa batería. El relé de arranque si se estropea, aquí en España suele costar unos 80 euros, pero se puede conseguir uno alternativo entre 5 y 12 euros.

Hay que mirar y limpiar las conexiones eléctricas, pero insisto si la moto se dejó en buenas condiones, lo importante es lo que he dicho anteriormente y como es natural cambio de aceites y filtros.

Saludos


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50Back to top Go down    Re: Spooky start on Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:47 am

92KK 84WW Olaf


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CO1637P wrote:Mira el enlace que pongo por si te sirve de ayuda

http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/...ont-start1.htm

Cuando la moto lleva mucho tiempo sin funcionar y se dejó en buen estado de funcionamiento, los primeros problemas vienen por la dgasolina que se dejó en el depósito de combustible.

La gasolina se descompone, estropeando la goma amortiguadora de la bomba, ensuciando el depósito y conductos. Arruinando la bomba y si llega a los inyectores incluso los estropea.

Por tanto, lo primero que hay que hacer es comprobar y reparar todo lo citado anteriormente y nunca intentar arrancar con esa gasolina.

La bomba de gasolina vale cara pero puede ser sustituida por bombas de automóvil de desguaces.

Pasemos al punto de la batería, si está baja de carga y se intenta arrancar el motor, el rélé de arranque se estropea, así que hay que evitar hacerlo con esa batería. El relé de arranque si se estropea, aquí en España suele costar unos 80 euros, pero se puede conseguir uno alternativo entre 5 y 12 euros.

Hay que mirar y limpiar las conexiones eléctricas, pero insisto si la moto se dejó en buenas condiones, lo importante es lo que he dicho anteriormente y como es natural cambio de aceites y filtros.

Saludos
Look at the link I put in if you help http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/...ont-start1.htm when the bike has long faulted and was in good operating condition, the first problems come by the dgasolina that was left in the fuel tank.

Gasoline breaks down, damaging the pump damper rubber, fouling the tank and pipes. Ruining the pump and if the injectors even spoil them.  Therefore, the first thing to do is check and repair everything mentioned above and never try to start with the gas.  The fuel pump is worth face but it can be replaced by scrap yards car bombs.  Let the battery point, if it is running low and you try to start the engine, the Starter relay is damaged, so should avoid doing so with that battery. Start relay if it breaks down, here in Spain usually cost around 80 euros, but can be one alternative 5-1...

From MS Word using the translate function. So much for US Software, explains how much of the worlds problems arise....


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1992 K100LT 0193214 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Baja Red bought 36,000 now 84,100 miles
    

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