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1Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:08 am

BIG D

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Cool 

So I gets back after another long period away and decide to give the bike a wee run, so after starting and letting her tick over I notice a puddle under the motor yes its the water/oil pump dripping oil.

So I phoned MOTO-BINS and ordered the overhaul kit and a impeller
[mine still had the old type] and with the guidance from this hallowed forum "many thanks to you guys who have put such  informed details on the process" I set about doing the job.

The job went along fine I followed the steps and only had one issue that was a stubborn long recessed hex bolt but with the help from this substance pictured I dipped the hex socket into it and she came out fine.

Job done and with the use of the three bond I purchased she leaks oil no more " again this forum is worth its weight in gold".

BIG D

 url=https://servimg.com/view/15903932/66]YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Gripti11[/url]

    

2Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:54 am

charlie99

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such great news that it all went well "d"

enjoy brother !   ride well


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OYE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Au-log10

"redframe" rs "bitsa"  with many contributions from the k100 community ,,with many thanks
    

3Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:03 am

rosskko

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While my inner good self is thinking what a great job, my inner bad self is saying 'bastard."rang moto bins and ordered the parts"'
email.
wait for reply
reply to the reply
read reply of the reply to the reply
not in stock/ are you sure that is the part?
reply
answer to reply
send order
too late to go today
now its Sunday there so wait another day.

grrrrr
🇳🇴  jealous? not me.


__________________________________________________
1986 K100RT VIN 0093801K100RT with summer fairing for a northern visitor

Basic/2 6308802K100CJ  05/1988

K1100RS 0194321
    

4Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:13 am

BIG D

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Thanks charlie I followed yours & other threads easy did not need a Haynes

I know rossko I felt like c**p it was the one job I was dreading to have to do so I followed the info here to the letter.

BIG D

    

5Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:10 pm

MT350Explorer

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Nice one BIG D! Sounds a lot smoother than my effort!

Cheers
Dave


__________________________________________________
1991 K100 RS 16 valve
    

6Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:53 am

BIG D

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Cool 

Hi Dave,

Well I must have had some luck but again there was a wealth of info from you guys who had done the job before me,
As I have stated before "this forum is worth its weight in gold".

BIG D

    

7Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:31 pm

Rob Roy Mcgregor

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I had the same thing happen to me but it was drip drip drip for a long time and the greasy patch on the drive was getting bigger and bigger and bigger,drip drip drip and i kept putting the job off untill the wife YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA 167893  started getting a bit heavy YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA 314318 "When you going to fix that pile o junk" "the oily stuff on the drive is ruining my nice clean floors" All the time i was thinking God how many days is this going to take me not ,to mention how many days is it going to take to scrubb the stain off the drive  sick  .So the other day i bitt the bullet and said to myself come on man dont be affraid just take it one bolt at a time :-c:  knowing that if the first one came out there was no going back. . Crack off with the first bolt then the next untill i had the cover plate off then the next set of bolts came off and then the can under the front of the engine to catch the oil im thinking this is easy,im off to make a cup of tea while the oils draining ,so into the kitchen,make tea YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA 340248 ,go back out and the wind had got up a bit while i was in and blew the can over a bit and oil all over the drive,the wife YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA 167893 was not happy YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA 61740 Yes dear it'll be fine i'll clean it all up dont worry you'l never see it once ive finnished  Crying or Very sad 

Onto the bench with the pump and i had the old type shaft with the nut and thread but lucky for me i had bought a second hand pump with the newer style shaft,the seals on it were shot but they were in better condition than my own.
Next out with the hammer Boom Boom Boom out with the water side seal then Boom out with the oil seal,Bosh in with the oil seal then tap tap in with the water seal :arrow:  tea time again🤢 Next was pulling the shaft through,that was a nice job,on with the impeller and on with the sealer,im thinking this is a great job ,bolts on and torque up . . Water back in no leaks,great YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA 22936 oil in,and i thought,right i'll just nip out to the super market for a test ride and pick somthing nice up for me and my long suffering wife to have for supper,in i goes, got something nice and go back out to the car park,look under the engine and low and behold . . Drip Drip Drip Shocked I rode home and had a look scratching my head thinking maybe i busted the ceramic up on the seal,so out with the tools and put it into the first bolt on the cover,it was loose ,checked the next bolt it was the same they were all loose,drain the water, cover off again,new sealer and tighten bolts up by hand fill up with coolant and "bingo" no leaks . I think the torque wrench must have been usless so it sits in the bottom of the dustbin now

That was my first attempt at doing the seals and a big thankyou to all who have contributed to posting the information on here  BTW :arrow:  im still scrubbing the oil out of the drive under supervision from the wife YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA 167893

    

8Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:06 am

BIG D

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Well done Bobbie, just make sure you clean that drive properly or it sounds like you will be getting a severe tongue lashing. Very Happy 

BIG D

    

9Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:17 am

RicK G

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"you'l never see it once ive finnished"  Just say I haven't finished yet my dear.
If you get some Kitty litter (that's what we call it in Oz) It's vermiculite for absorbing what Kittys do most often.
Put a good sprinkling of that down over the stain and then soak the area in degreaser and let it sit for a few days and most of the stain will go. Soaking it with gasoline is better but potentialy dangerous.
I had a big dirty oil spill on my workshop floor a while ago and did that, it is now the cleanest part of the floor.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

10Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:53 am

MT350Explorer

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Stick with it Bobbie, if you've seen my post it wasn't exactly plain sailing either!

If you're in the NE let me know if you want to borrow a torque wrench

Cheers
Dave


__________________________________________________
1991 K100 RS 16 valve
    

11Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:47 pm

Rob Roy Mcgregor

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Big D. . is that nimrod parked next to findy ? Rick . . Good tip thanks   & Dave Thanks for the offer i'll know where to come when i need a lone. . my next job is to source a good second hand rear shock then unbolt all the rear gear and lube up the splines i wonder what i will encounter there . . probably more oil slick on the drive and a few more oily cups of tea        Surprised-o:

    

12Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:04 pm

BIG D

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Hi Bobbie the Nimrod is the original gate guard kinloss side before closure Im at the other place not to far away.

BIG D

    

13Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Thu May 15, 2014 11:33 pm

brickrider

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I received the water/oil pump with the new, dealer-installed seals.  I installed it once again, using Permatex non-hardening gastket maker.  I think it's labeled B-2. By the time I had finished refilling the sump with oil, the coolant had begun to drip out of the seam where the cover fits. 

When I dismantled the pump, I remember thinking it odd that there were no gaskets between the flanges of the pump and the engine case nor between the pump and the cover.  Now I wish I'd have cut some out of paper and installed them, no matter what BMW procedure may be.

Has anyone else confronted this depressing problem? 
What torque should I use on those bolts on the cover and on the pump?  They're pretty small....

    

14Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Fri May 16, 2014 12:31 am

RicK G

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If you use a gasket you will increase the clearance to the cover from the impeller and lose volume and pressure. Make sure the mating surfaces are meticulously clean then use Permatex RTV Blue, put a thin film and let it cure for 10 minutes before placing the cover and don't go past 8fl/lb on the bolts or you can strip the threads and take them down in 3 stages. The covers can be difficult I have had to do it 3 times on one occasion and of course the customer was in a big hurry and standing around tapping his foot and asking how much longer till I reminded him that it was Sunday and he could always get the local bike shop to do it on Monday.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

15Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Fri May 16, 2014 2:43 am

robmack

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+1 on the process Rick.

When I refitted my water pump on the K75, I spent a long time with a magnifying glass and picks to make sure every single spec of previous gasket was removed -- spotless.  Then I used acetone to clean the two surfaces.

I bought Permatex #51813 Anaerobic gasket maker for the pump to engine mating surfaces and Permatex Red for the pump to cover surfaces.  The Anaerobic gasket maker is like the Drei Bond recommended by BMW.  It withstands the high oil pressures in that area.

When I applied the gasket maker, I used a thin consistent diameter bead and made sure to follow the instructions in Clymers.  Make especially sure not to block the relief port on the engine.  When I came to bolt the pump on, I only tightened the bolts enough until I began to see sealant pressed out from the seam.  I stopped tightening at that point and let the stuff cure for 3 hours.  Then, I tightened the bolts to spec and left it for 2 days at least to make sure the gasket is at full strength.

I used the same process on the pump cover and the oil pan.  I've never experienced a leak in any of these components.

This subject is discussed in other threads:
http://www.k100-forum.com/t3020-engine-oil-in-water-reservoir
Dennis:  Charlie, regarding the sealing of the oil pump housing to the engine crankcase, BMW specify the 3Bond product because of the unique application here. This (metal to metal) joint is subject to full oil pressure, unlike most other joints around the engine where there is either a gasket or O ring when there is pressure. Speaking from my own experience with exactly the same symptons you are seeing, I found my tell-tale hole blocked with crap, so the oil pushed into the water side of the pump assembly (the outer lip seal on the water side has no external wiper so oil can push under from the outside). When I rebuilt my oil pump it took 3 attempts to get a seal, in the end I used Loctite 515 Master Gasket after first priming the mating surfaces with Loctite Primer T. Do not touch the surfaces after priming. Be scrupulously clean and apply the 515 sparingly. Spread it with an icy-pole stick or similar, not your fingers. I flushed the engine cooling system with dishwashing detergent in the water. Ran for 30 minutes and drained. Worked a treat.
Inge:  I’ve tried different sealants on the pump some years ago (which started to leak after some time),  ended up with Permatex Blue RTV. The pump assembly is still dry on the outside, ~12-13 year, 100K km later.
Charlie:  thanks inge and dennis ...  see i was going the right way, after all (with the seal ) thanks for the conformation. yes dennis after looking up the 515 it has amazing bonding strength. good advice too inge ....after looking at the permatex range the black seems to be the one with the high oil resistivity ...but i also have used the blue before ...it does a great job ....my copper seems to be able to do the job but is designed for high temp low toxisity ...which should work also . ill head off to the auto shop looking to get the 515 i think price dependant at this point as the choices available from the available suppliers, right now durring our holiday season might suffer a certain ouch factor ....grin
AvengerGT: Loctite 5920 copper works Charlie, been oil tight on mine for 10,000 odd miles.

http://www.k100-forum.com/t1112p75-waterpump-seal-special-tool
The final oil pump assembly must be done very carefully in respect to achieving an oil tight joint at the front engine face. This is a high pressure joint (full pressure before the relief valve). BMW states 3Bond 1209 I think. I used Loctite 515 Master Gasket with the mating surfaces primed with Loctite Primer T and allowed to cure. Do not touch the primed surfaces before applying the 515.
I can only speak from my own experience with my water/oil pump rebuild. I tried twice to effect a seal without priming, but no luck, oil still weeped from the joint, can be felt by poking little finger in the hole the oil pressure switch wire emerges from.
The primer chemically etches the surfaces, preparing them for the curing process for the 515 Master Gasket.
I experimented with the effectiveness of the primer by applying it to 2 zinc plated bolt heads then applying the 515 and allowing to cure, vs just applying the 515 to 2 other bolt heads. The difference in force required to break the seal is quite amazing.
Loctite products cure by removing the air (anearobic curing process).
Remember, this joint is under full pump pressure, unlike most other joints on the engine, that's why a high pressure sealant which is not brittle is required. Don't try normal RTV silicone, it will leak, and so will Permatex (both my experience). Hope this helps.
I used Loctite 5920 Premium Copper silicone on mine over a year ago, and 5000 odd miles later it is still oil tight.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=470851
BMW recommends using “Drei Bond 1209” (Three Bond Sealing Compound). It comes in a 30 milli-liter tube and is stocked under part # 07-58-9-062-376. Price is approximately $15.00 (may vary depending on which Dealer you contact).

http://www.k100-forum.com/t4749-oil-water-pump-seals-replacement
sidecar paul: I once used Hylomar on the pump joint and it leaked like a sieve, re-did it with 3 Bond and everything was back to normal. I was so impressed, that when I fitted a new big end in the Vincent last year, I did all the joints with 3 Bond and that motor is bone dry (on the outside).


__________________________________________________
Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
    

16Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Fri May 16, 2014 4:04 am

brickrider

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... and I thought that I had finally passed the steep part of the learning curve on this bike.  Ha, what a fool I've been!  Who knew that the thick, sticky Permatex gasket maker wasn't up to the task?  It fact, it isn't anywhere close.  It leaks even before the engine is started!
Knowing I've got to drain the oil, drain the coolant, roll around on the floor under that beast a few more hours has me depressed.  
For the record, I did clean the mating surfaces with acetone; I let the Permatex set a good half hour before I fitted the pump and cover.  Still no joy. It looks like I'll be shopping for another sealer before I try this again.

    

17Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Fri May 16, 2014 8:13 am

charlie99

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the "drei bond 1209 " works pretty good ... if you can get your hands on some

may I suggest, a very light continuous smear is all that's required to seal up almost all the parts I have found doing repairs .

good luck with the next attempt ...it isn't really that hard ....and we learn a little more each time ...no ?!!


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OYE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Au-log10

"redframe" rs "bitsa"  with many contributions from the k100 community ,,with many thanks
    

18Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty oil/water pump fun on Sat May 17, 2014 10:55 pm

brickrider

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I've been reading the extensive posts here since my failure to properly fix the re-sealed pump to my 1985 K100RS.  I sure wish I'd have done that before I undertook the repair! Sad 
I've since searched for Three Bond sealant.  Where I live, it's as rare as teeth in a hen.  I gave up on Three Bond and decided on Loctite 515.  No auto store stocks it either.  Monday I plan to visit a bearing supplier.  Maybe I'll find some there.
In the meantime, I've been mulling over what I've done.  It still seems odd to me that the coolant would essentially run out immediately, even before the system was pressurized.  I recall having doubts about the red o-ring BMW provided to seal the water hose.  It seemed to be undersized, such that it was impossible to seat it in its groove.  In the end, I slathered it with silicon grease so it would remain stuck in the upper part of the groove, then I began snugging up the pump from the top.  I peeked in the side as I drew up the bolts and from what I saw, it appeared the o-ring was forced completely into its groove as the pump flange mated with the engine.  In light of the immediate leak of coolant, I now have my doubts.
Have others found the o-ring to be on the small side, as compared to the groove where it is to fit?
That particular o-ring shouldn't be hard to source.  If I can find the old one I removed, I think I'll try to match it with a new, non-BMW ring that is better suited to sit into its groove.

    

19Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Sun May 18, 2014 1:05 am

RicK G

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Make sure it is a silicone O-ring, the black nitrile wont stand the temperature for much longer than 12 months.
When you need to make an O-ring stick in a vertical position only use the bare minimum to make it stay or you risk the problem of too much goo in the groove and the faces don't pull together properly, leaks don't usually occur immediately but within a few hours of use.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

20Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty lee king on Mon May 19, 2014 6:39 pm

Rob Roy Mcgregor

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@brickrider wrote:I received the water/oil pump with the new, dealer-installed seals.  I installed it once again, using Permatex non-hardening gastket maker.  I think it's labeled B-2. By the time I had finished refilling the sump with oil, the coolant had begun to drip out of the seam where the cover fits. 

When I dismantled the pump, I remember thinking it odd that there were no gaskets between the flanges of the pump and the engine case nor between the pump and the cover.  Now I wish I'd have cut some out of paper and installed them, no matter what BMW procedure may be.

Has anyone else confronted this depressing problem? 
What torque should I use on those bolts on the cover and on the pump?  They're pretty small....



Did you Leave the sealer to go off properly maybe even all night before re filling ?

    

21Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Mon May 19, 2014 8:53 pm

brickrider

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I refilled the cooling system upon snugging up the fasteners.  I don't believe waiting overnight would make a whit of difference, as I used Permatex non-hardening gasket maker. 
I'm now waiting for Loctite 515 to be sent to me via the post, as it is not available locally.

    

22Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Mon May 19, 2014 10:29 pm

Rob Roy Mcgregor

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what have you got to loose by giving it another go tonight and fill it in the morning it might mean you can ride to work on it for a test run  Very Happy

    

23Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Wed May 21, 2014 3:08 am

brickrider

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It continues to drip coolant into a pan I've placed under the bike, so I don't need a ride to prove that its still broken.  I'll do it up with the Loctite 515 sealant and then give her a proper road test.  In early June I aim to ride about 3K miles down through the southwest.  I'm hopeful that can happened without any mechanical issues and before the weather becomes seriously hot.

    

24Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Sad revelation on Sun May 25, 2014 12:02 am

brickrider

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I pulled the pump off of my 1985 K100RS to seal it again.  I discovered my gut feeling was right: the BMW supplied o-ring is not suited to the groove its theoretically supposed to seal against.  There was an obvious difference in the size between the old and new one, but I tried to fit the new one anyway, thinking it could be forced into its groove with some careful snugging up of the pump. 
I'm now considering putting the old one in again.  It is undamaged and seems to not be deformed in any way.  This seems a reasonable option, as I'm running out of time and I've no reason to believe ordering another from the dealer would get me an o-ring that actually fits.

    

25Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Wed May 28, 2014 12:55 am

brickrider

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The re-do of fitting the water/oil pump went very well.  I used the old o-ring again, as it seems to be in good condition. She now is coolant and oil-tight and running very well indeed.  Incidentally, for those who cannot find the recommended Three Bond sealant, I heartily endorse the use of Loctite 515 for this application.  I didn't use the primer in conjunction with the sealant - I just waited 24 hours prior to refilling the various reservoirs before I fired her up.  The Loctite 515 is easy to use and works a treat!

    

26Back to top Go down   YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA Empty Re: YE OLD WATER/OIL PUMP SAGA on Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:07 am

BritMotorWorx

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@brickrider wrote:  I used the old o-ring again, as it seems to be in good condition. 
When desperate, I have reused o-rings but add some silicone sealant into the groove, squash in the old o-ring on a flat surface not to push it all the way in, but to leave some silicone under it to create some pressure when it dries and is bolted up.    Probably not the best practice but it hasn't let me down yet plus if spares are a long way off it gets you up and running again.


__________________________________________________
1986 K100 RT Cafe Racer
    

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