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1Back to top Go down    1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:24 am

Holister

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If anyone can correct me or add some relevant information on this topic, please jump in. I'm no authority, I've just been reading up and I'm just posting this info here to get some discussion going. I just want to know whether a 4 hole injector will work properly in a K100 engine.


There's been discussion here and on other forums about upgrading to 4 hole injectors to possibly get a performance boost. Fuel from these injectors is properly atomised by the 4 fine holes which also creates an efficient dispersal pattern. There doesn't appear to be a 4 hole injector specifically designed for the K100, so finding a substitution is the problem. 

The table below is one I've put together covering injectors that are relevant this topic or have been discussed here or somewhere else on the web in relation to the K100.


Bosch OEM #TypeNozzle      Length Ohms Gr/Min  PSI BARPressure %Application
0-280-150-210EV11 (pintle)60.516.2103.1036.252.50100%BMW Motorcycle
0-280-150-705EV11 (pintle)60.515.9104.6036.252.50100%BMW 4-1.0l, 4-1.1l, 4-1.2l,
0-280-150-715EV14 hole60.515.9116.5043.503.0083%BMW 4-1.6l, 4-1.8l, 6-2.5l,
0-280-150-415EV14 hole60.515.9130.0050.753.5071%BMW 6-2.5l, 3.0l
[EDIT: PSI and Bar pressures above are working pressures for each injector not test pressure]*
Because air is measured as a mass, Bosch refer to the measurement of fuel mass in grams not cc's. However when bench testing an injector it's easier to measure the volume in CCs.
Note: 1gram of fuel does not equal 1cc of fuel
Some interesting reading from Bosch.
http://www.bosch.com.au/car_parts/en/html/4554.htm
Sections a,b,c,d - fuelinjectors.pdf


The first injector 0280150210 has been designed to run in the K100 engine and these are the parameters for the engine and ECU to operate within. The 'Pressure %' column is my calculation and refers to the available pressure provided by the fuel system divided by the required pressure for that injector. This injector requires 36.25psi to operate. The K system provides 36.25psi so therefore it's getting 100% of its required pressure.

0280150705 could be substituted. It has almost identical specs. It's been designed to run in a BMW 4 cyl 1.0 lit car engine*. [EDIT: This is the OEM injector for K1 & 16v Ks]*

However when you get into the more modern 4 hole injector, things start to change.

0280150715 (4 hole) delivers slightly more fuel, but it's normal operating pressure is 43.5psi and in a K100 (at 36.25psi) it's only getting 83% of its required pressure, so therefore it's working with a 17% drop in pressure. These injectors require the higher operating pressure to get proper atomisation of the fuel. But if you want to go for a 4 hole injector then this is probably the one to buy as its the closest to the standard specs BUT is it operating efficiently??

0280150415 (4 hole) is an injector being sold on US ebay as the injector upgrade for K machines (the listing doesn't state the OEM# but I messaged the seller for that info). As you can see this injector requires a much higher operating pressure (50.75psi) but will only get 71% of that required pressure from the K100 fuel system. It's working at a nearly 30% drop in pressure. Pressure and flow are directly related so that would mean that the flow rate would come down to 91grams/min. Thats a 12% drop in fuel delivery and a 30% drop in pressure. That cannot be efficiently atomising the fuel. Poor atomisation... poor air/fuel mix... poor combustion... drop in power. IMHO this injector is a bad choice. 

I read posts online from people who have fitted these and it really does seem unclear whether this injector makes any difference. Any percieved difference "may just be due to the fact that their old injectors were stuffed anyway" was one comment. It may be difficult to determine any changes in power output under normal use so I would be very interested to see dyna results and fuel consumption data before and after fitting these injectors.

If the  above assumption is correct, could a solution be to regulate the fuel at a higher psi by fitting a different
fuel pressure regulator?
Would you then need to install a pump to accommodate the higher operating pressure? The K fuel pump provides a head of pressure around 60psi.
With increased fuel will the air regulate accordingly or do you get a richer mix?
How would this affect the performance of the ECU?

I'm just putting this out there and looking for feedback. I've tried to approach this logically but from what I can see we're probably better off sticking to the standard 1 hole injector. That's disappointing because I really wanted to upgrade.

Any thoughts
Cheers



Last edited by Kaptain Holister on Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:20 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : *corrected info)


__________________________________________________
1988 K100RT     VIN No.  0094680
1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
     Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

2Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:06 pm

Ghost who rides

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Good work Kaptain, very clearly summarised.


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1987  K100RT  Police repainted, rough and unloved.
    

3Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:33 pm

Dai

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Thank you for all the effort. I'd been considering the upgrade too and it looks like you've saved me some money.


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'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

4Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:36 pm

RicK G

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With increased fuel will the air regulate accordingly or do you get a richer mix? It gets rich.


How would this affect the performance of the ECU? It won't affect the performance of the ECU, it operates on factory set parameters and the mass of air and temperature are the only governing factors as to how long the injectors are open for each revolution of the engine.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

5Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:41 am

WandererK1

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Kaptain,

Thanks for your efforts and sharing, just had a quick glance an read, but a big day out on the bike, an im way over tired to think to straight, so shall look at it again tomorrow...
I did see reference to my injector number, 0280 150 705. From my K1, 16V engine, and am yet to mail the guys in the USA who i started talking with, one of them asked for my OEM part number, and am yet to follow through...
Quoted $200 NZD to get my originals serviced an tested, so the refurbished unit pricing from USA seemed good, and I am also very keen to upgrade to the 4 hole unit, if it is actually a upgrade...

    

6Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:39 am

Holister

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WandererK1
My post above only refers to the K100 but if your K1 fuel system operates at 36.25psi which I think it does then the same will apply. I just presented the data with a bit of reasoning. You really need to assess that for yourself and make your own decision.

Your K1 injector numbers are
BMW part # 13641461523
Bosch OEM# 0280150705

cheers


__________________________________________________
1988 K100RT     VIN No.  0094680
1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
     Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

7Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:47 am

RicK G

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16 Valve Ks operate at 3 bar fuel pressure (43psi).


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

8Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:35 pm

Inge K.

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RicK G wrote:16 Valve Ks operate at 3 bar fuel pressure (43psi).


:smoke: :smoke: :smoke: ...... even on a Sunday.

K1 and K100RS16V using the same FPR as the 8V models.
The FPR w/o a vacum connection used on the K1100's is also set to 2.5 bar according to the OEM manual.


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

9Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:16 pm

Holister

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RicK G wrote:With increased fuel will the air regulate accordingly or do you get a richer mix? It gets rich.


How would this affect the performance of the ECU? It won't affect the performance of the ECU, it operates on factory set parameters and the mass of air and temperature are the only governing factors as to how long the injectors are open for each revolution of the engine.

Then with reduced fuel (when using the 4 hole injector) it would be running very lean?


__________________________________________________
1988 K100RT     VIN No.  0094680
1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
     Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

10Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:42 pm

RicK G

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Inge K. wrote:
RicK G wrote:16 Valve Ks operate at 3 bar fuel pressure (43psi).


:smoke: :smoke: :smoke: ...... even on a Sunday.

K1 and K100RS16V using the same FPR as the 8V models.
The FPR w/o a vacum connection used on the K1100's is also set to 2.5 bar according to the OEM manual.
Well I was going on what is quoted here for Bosch injectors and the test pressure.
This is put together from a large PDF which I could only view so I cant post it here but was taken from screen dumps.
The K100 is there and the 705 is only mentioned for a YUGO1.3lt whatever that is and when I found the 705 I put the "K1100 also" in.
I also included the bit on the last line which I have seen quoted as being suitable for the K100 but it is only the pump from that model Mustang  that is suitable and definitely not the injectors.


Inge do you know of any other vehicles that use the 705 injector


__________________________________________________
If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

11Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:16 am

Holister

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I've found many sites with varying data but the sites that itemised 'test pressure' and 'operating pressure' seemed to be more reliable when cross referenced with Bosch data which shows flow in grams/min at 3 bar (43.5psi) regardless of their operating pressure. From what I can tell this is a standard.
NB: The flows I've posted above are at operating pressure to get a working comparison.


__________________________________________________
1988 K100RT     VIN No.  0094680
1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
     Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

12Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:05 am

RicK G

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And every bloody one of them prints a disclaimer under it in very fine print saying if you quote us and it wrong its your fault and we then have the right to sue you for disseminating false information.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

13Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:20 am

Inge K.

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RicK G wrote: The K100 is there and the 705 is only mentioned for a YUGO1.3lt whatever that is
Inge do you know of any other vehicles that use the 705 injector

Yugo is a Fiat produced under licence in the former Yugoslavia ......
Fiat models produced under licence you find about everywhere, with different names.

And then of course the 705 is used on Fiat and others from mafioso land.


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

14Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:32 pm

Kyle10

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This post is doing my head in (genes to blame?). 

However, Kapt. are you assuming reduced fuel via use of the 4-hole? 
The reason I ask is that I purchased the 4-hole injectors from this merchant, installed and ran them. Seat o' the pants dyno was smoother throttle and noticeably improved oomph throughout the rev range. Indeed, this could come from switching to reconditioned from OEM circa 1985 injectors but I have inspected the OEM's and they are actually very clean and booger-free at least visually. All told, I certainly did not experience a drop in performance of any parameter; quite the opposite. 

2 cents.  


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1985 K100rt 0052183
1983 Honda VF750 007713 
    

15Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:12 pm

brickrider

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Interesting, Kyle.  Have you measured fuel consumption since the change-out to 4-hole injectors?

    

16Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:23 pm

Kyle10

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Mid to high 30's, as usual.


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1985 K100rt 0052183
1983 Honda VF750 007713 
    

17Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:18 pm

k-rider

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Kyle10 wrote:This post is doing my head in (genes to blame?). 

However, Kapt. are you assuming reduced fuel via use of the 4-hole? 
The reason I ask is that I purchased the 4-hole injectors from this merchant, installed and ran them. Seat o' the pants dyno was smoother throttle and noticeably improved oomph throughout the rev range. Indeed, this could come from switching to reconditioned from OEM circa 1985 injectors but I have inspected the OEM's and they are actually very clean and booger-free at least visually. All told, I certainly did not experience a drop in performance of any parameter; quite the opposite. 

2 cents.  
This sounds great ,since i ordered a set yesterday Very Happy

k-rider


18Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:10 am

Holister

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Kyle10 wrote:This post is doing my head in (genes to blame?). 

However, Kapt. are you assuming reduced fuel via use of the 4-hole? 
The reason I ask is that I purchased the 4-hole injectors from this merchant, installed and ran them. Seat o' the pants dyno was smoother throttle and noticeably improved oomph throughout the rev range. Indeed, this could come from switching to reconditioned from OEM circa 1985 injectors but I have inspected the OEM's and they are actually very clean and booger-free at least visually. All told, I certainly did not experience a drop in performance of any parameter; quite the opposite. 

2 cents.  
That was the seller who messaged me back to say his injectors were OEM#0280150415. Maybe you could confirm the OEM# for the injector you have? It may be different.

I just presented the data for those injectors with a little reasoning. People should make their own minds up whether these are a genuine upgrade for the K100. But as they are operating a reduced pressure to what they've been designed for, the calculation is simple, the flow rate would logically be reduced and the air/fuel mix would be lean... unless someone can (please) prove this is wrong. Any perceived changes in power will be subjective. Exhaust analysis and a dynamometer reading will be the real test. (Does anyone have access to this equipment??)

But with respect Kyle, I have no idea what "Seat o' the pants dyno was smoother throttle and noticeably improved oomph throughout the rev range" really means. I cleaned my injectors and re-kitted them last weekend and I can say I have a smoother running machine now. Some may translate that to feels like more power.

Just on the side... My rudimentary testing and cleaning showed that one of my injectors was leaking. The cleaning seemed to fix that. Might explain my high fuel consumption and smelly exhaust. I'm hoping that's the cause, I'll know at the next fillup.





Cheers


__________________________________________________
1988 K100RT     VIN No.  0094680
1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
     Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

19Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:10 pm

Brad-Man

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There are plenty of fuel injector calculators that take the guesswork out of what size/cc injector to use when trying to match closely.

RC Engineering

But an injector that is 146-147 cc/min @ 44 psi will work well.

Just make sure that they are high impedance.


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20Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:50 pm

Kyle10

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Kapt,
Same OEM #'s. 



But with respect Kyle, I have no idea what "Seat o' the pants dyno was smoother throttle and noticeably improved oomph throughout the rev range" really means. I cleaned my injectors and re-kitted them last weekend and I can say I have a smoother running machine now. Some may translate that to feels like more power. 


Just on the side... My rudimentary testing and cleaning showed that one of my injectors was leaking. The cleaning seemed to fix that. Might explain my high fuel consumption and smelly exhaust. I'm hoping that's the cause, I'll know at the next fillup. 

I'm with your reasoning on this, actually, and hedged accordingly in my orig. post. Albeit, since obtaining the bike (from my Dad) I've put about 16K on it in all but snowy environs so the improvements I noted were obvious to me: smoother idle, crisper throttle, more grunt  - to what degree specifically I could not put in hard data. 

And the bike's no hard luck scrape-the-grime-off story. I'm the second owner, as my dad bought it new and its been cared for well over the years. The slightest hiccup and to the dealership my dad would take it, he being afraid of all things involving wrenching (as opposed to involving 'wenching'). 

P.S. My garage is just above freezing right now. I've lost feeling in several fingers getting this damned thing out of the rail  Shocked


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1985 K100rt 0052183
1983 Honda VF750 007713 
    

21Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:54 pm

Kyle10

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Brad-Man wrote:There are plenty of fuel injector calculators that take the guesswork out of what size/cc injector to use when trying to match closely.

RC Engineering

But an injector that is 146-147 cc/min @ 44 psi will work well.

Just make sure that they are high impedance.

But the OEM FPR is ~37 psi, right? 

Is a higher psi regulator something to consider?


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1985 K100rt 0052183
1983 Honda VF750 007713 
    

22Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:05 pm

Brad-Man

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By utilizing the calculator on the link I provided, I used 36.3 PSI and the stock delivery rate to determine that 146-147cc injectors @ 43.5 PSI would deliver the stock amount of fuel in our K's...



Last edited by Brad-Man on Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total


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23Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:19 pm

Kyle10

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So.
Would an adjustable adjustable FPR (example) be applicable/wise/sane? Set to ~44 psi?



Last edited by Kyle10 on Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : #'s)


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1985 K100rt 0052183
1983 Honda VF750 007713 
    

24Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:31 pm

japuentes

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Hi there, I still got the tables compiled during my injector replacement a few years ago, the 715(4 hole) will give 151.3cc/min at 3 psi, and the 210(1 hole) 145.6cc/min at 3 psi, the difference is a mere 3% and lower at 2.5psi. So you should not have any problem with the 715 injector.
The 4 holes better spray pattern, may increase power and reduce fuel consumption.
Hope this helps
Best regards
JAP


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1988 K100RS SE/ABS
    

25Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:06 am

charlie99

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I agree jap

the high fuel smell out the back of out bikes is usually a good sign that there is a good quantity of unburnt fuel ..
many reasons for that but

I can see clearly that the better atomisation, no matter the delivery pressure (within reason ) is going to make some differences in a positive nature .

I would like to add that if you pull the lower throttle body rubbers and the injectors out you will notice that the injector sprays almost directly at the valve stem ...just above the valve body - head on the 2 valve models ...but could be more beneficial on a 4 valve as the induction port splits before entering the cylinder - valves



the linked video of 4 hole injectors shows a spray pattern a lot wider within the first 20 or so mm from the injector ...and more holes means more atomisation of the same or similar fuel delivery

our mate "bert2" did a adjustable fuel regulator upgrade before selling his beast ...with noted improvements in performance ..and some little differences in fuel economy .

I guess if your burning fuel better there is less need to feed the throttle for a given load - speed ...


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

26Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:40 am

Holister

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japuentes wrote:Hi there, I still got the tables compiled during my injector replacement a few years ago, the 715(4 hole) will give 151.3cc/min at 3 psi, and the 210(1 hole) 145.6cc/min at 3 psi, the difference is a mere 3% and lower at 2.5psi. So you should not have any problem with the 715 injector.
The 4 holes better spray pattern, may increase power and reduce fuel consumption.
Hope this helps
Best regards
JAP
Yes JAP I tend to agree also. I pointed out in my OP that the 715 would be the better choice over the 415.
My whole point is that the injector being sold as a K100 upgrade is not suitable imo

The way I look at it is.... any percieved power increase from a 4 hole injector is not worth worrying about. There's not data to back it up, just a lot of vague comment about maybe its better but not sure type of thing. Im happy with the grunt my K has and its getting better as I bring the servicing up to date. I've decided to replace my injectors but I'll be going with the standard 210.


__________________________________________________
1988 K100RT     VIN No.  0094680
1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
     Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

27Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:22 pm

Kyle10

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Nothing vague about it, Kapt. Just cannot 'map' it out for you. The improvements are definitely noticeable, as after the first ride I was in the mind of 'wow'. Not 'I kinda suppose maybe.' 

To each his own, of course, yet it is doubtless converting to 4-hole injectors has bettered my bike.


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1985 K100rt 0052183
1983 Honda VF750 007713 
    

28Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:44 am

charlie99

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onya kyle ....  I plan to do similar soon

cheers from down here


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

29Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:07 pm

Brad-Man

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japuentes:


I think you mean 3 BAR - not 3 PSI.

And if so, you just repeated what I said...


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30Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:21 pm

japuentes

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Brad-Man wrote:

japuentes:




I think you mean 3 BAR - not 3 PSI.

And if so, you just repeated what I said...
Hi Brad
Yes I meant 3 Bar and no I didn't.
I supported your conclusion by using concurring data from an independent source.
Best regards and thanks for the amendment
JAP


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1988 K100RS SE/ABS
    

31Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:43 pm

WandererK1

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Had some emails with two places in the USA who have injectors on ebay, both answered my questions, and tell me the 4 hole units are a direct replacement, and no tuning or changes needed to my K1, So we shall see, just ordered a set from this guy, by the name of Martin...
They will ship offshore, and the postage of $20usd is very reasonable I thought... Very Happy

*3 Year Warranty* Genuine BOSCH Fuel Injector Set Upgrade / Update 4-Nozzle
( 281435347207 )
dimarmotorsportsllc

    

32Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:56 am

Rustybottom

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Kyle10 wrote:Nothing vague about it, Kapt. Just cannot 'map' it out for you. The improvements are definitely noticeable, as after the first ride I was in the mind of 'wow'. Not 'I kinda suppose maybe.' 

To each his own, of course, yet it is doubtless converting to 4-hole injectors has bettered my bike.

Have you had a look at the plugs since the swap Kyle? If you're getting real life power, or even the illusion of, and the plugs look good, you must be on to something. I think....


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1985 K100 cafe faired, 1978 Suzuki GS550
    

33Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:55 am

ungaas

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Very interesting post this, which I think has many followers, I looked at what is available to us "Europeans" and found this site.
Have a browse through.


http://www.jt-c.com/product_info.php?info=p42_austausch-kit-k100-4v---k1100---k1200.html


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88 K100 Unfaired 0033026 
   
92 K1100RT  6455097
    

34Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:17 am

Dai

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I had to read that twice. At first I thought it was 80Eur for one injector! - until I read the rest of the page. That's a pretty reasonable price.


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'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
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'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
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35Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:51 am

Holister

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Price is not bad for a set but it is an exchange service for the 4V injectors.
Would be good to know what the OEM # is.


__________________________________________________
1988 K100RT     VIN No.  0094680
1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
     Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

36Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:12 pm

Kyle10

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Rustybottom wrote:
Kyle10 wrote:Nothing vague about it, Kapt. Just cannot 'map' it out for you. The improvements are definitely noticeable, as after the first ride I was in the mind of 'wow'. Not 'I kinda suppose maybe.' 

To each his own, of course, yet it is doubtless converting to 4-hole injectors has bettered my bike.

Have you had a look at the plugs since the swap Kyle? If you're getting real life power, or even the illusion of, and the plugs look good, you must be on to something. I think....

Plugs pulled at a paranoid 2-week mark of riding, again at two months and for a last time before the to-the-frame strip for the winter. 
All told 5 months of riding, incl. highway (I-5 b. Vancouver and Eugene), coastal roads and horrible in-town-I'm-sweating-to-death traffic. 
Plugs remain looking as they should (lt. gray dusting).


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1985 K100rt 0052183
1983 Honda VF750 007713 
    

37Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:00 pm

KafeRacer

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I have the 415 injectors on my project bike.  I also have an adjustable FPR, and am in the process of installing a wide band 02 sensor to be able to monitor the exhaust gasses.  So In a few weeks I should be able to provide a more objective analysis and see if there is any noticeable difference in running the 415 injectors at 2.5 bar, or the 3.5 bar they are designed for.


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kaferacer.wordpress.com

1990 K75RT
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38Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:44 am

Holister

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#415 injector at 3.5 bar will deliver nearly 30% more fuel than is required. Probably a bit rich.
Adjusting that to 2.8 bar (40psi) would get you the required 103 gr/min for a 2V K... no problem.

BUT the info I've been able to find on that injector says it has a 13º 'Split Stream' spray pattern plus it's offset, designed for a BMW car engine, so I'm guessing there will be some fuel/efficiency lost getting it to the port and into the combustion chamber. That's an inherant problem with port injection and why spray patterns are designed for specific intakes.


This is sort of how it works BUT the 2V K only has one inlet port per cylinder.



The #210 (which was specifically designed for the earlier 2V K) with single hole pintle is designed to spray fuel directly to the back of the inlet valve. The setup is similar but a little different for a 4V.

Dave, I'm not saying the #415 is no good. I just think that 'on paper' it doesn't look optimal so I'd be very interested to see your O2 results. However that will just tell you the correct fp for that injector. How is that going to affect fuel consumption? the whole thing starts to become a can of worms.

This is just how I see it.
Cheers



Last edited by Kaptain Holister on Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:20 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)


__________________________________________________
1988 K100RT     VIN No.  0094680
1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
     Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

39Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:18 am

charlie99

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all very good .....but ....the 2 valve has only about 25 -30 mm between the bottom of the injector and the valve  AND the intake is not straight on  there is a bend in the intake port of about 10 - 15 degrees  if you cared to look . perhaps swirling concepts were designed in as well .


the 4 valve (16 valve versions ) have the injectors built out some distance further and as your picture illustrates,  built into the throttle body to head rubbers ...not only that but the 16 valve versions have a quite different inlet port to rubbers fittup with a distinctly different aspect ratio of more width to height as it divides into the head




there is empirical evidence of performance differences  on other forums to do with the mighty k bikes .


I commend to all to play with the heads and injection ...if they have the desire and done the homework ...and if they want to see some change ...
For many this could end in poor or mixed results ....but please provide feedback ..........im not pointing to the purists  but to the adventurist types with the interest at hand .


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

40Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:34 am

Holister

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Thanks for that amendment charlie Wink 
Yes you are correct, there is a bend in the air intake manifold but this is about injectors and the injector is pointed directly at the back of the valve head. It was specifically designed that way. The picture I posted was only to highlight how the #415's split stream setup works. There is no relationship there to the K intake mainfold 2V or 4V.

I did mention in my post above that the 4V set up is a little different, but this thread and specifically my post above refers to 2V Ks.

I've not found any imperical evidence on other forums supporting performance improvements with 4 hole injectors in a 2V K100, just a lot of vague chatter including posts that suggest that maybe the original injectors were old and unserviced and installing anything new would've been a noticeable improvement. I dare say that someone here would've pointed to any evidence by now. If its out there, please, someone put it up.

Interestingly, the US ebay seller of the #415 makes no mention about the suitability for 2V or 4V however other more prominent retailers selling an upgrade injector online actually state that they are for 4V only.

Anyway, I make no assumptions. I'm just trying to get a discussion happening so K owners can make an informed decision about replacing injectors if they feel they are the adventurist type.

Cheers


__________________________________________________
1988 K100RT     VIN No.  0094680
1989 K100RT     VIN No.  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN No.  0451808
     Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

41Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:33 am

Two Wheels Better

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I'll wade into the bog to say that replacing my original K100 8V injectors, rated at about 130cpm, with 16V K11 injectors, rated at 150cpm (same as K12RS/GT, incidentally), produced an overly rich squirt as evident by the smoot at the tailpipe egress hole and the slightly reduced mileage per litre, with no real increase in ooomph. This was done after installing 35mm TBs from a K11 in place of the stock 33mm TBs. I'll go back to cleaned-up, 8V injectors when I return home this year.

There is perhaps some comfort in the idea of a four hole injector atomising the fuel better than a single hole injector for more efficient combustion.


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'77 R75/7-1000cc, '87 K100RS, '93 K11/K12 Big Block, '94 R100R Mystic, '03 K1200GT, '04 R1150RT, '06 K1200R, '07 K1200R & 2009 K1300GT
    

42Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:19 pm

charlie99

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sounds like they would be getting close to equalizing my lean mix (after port modification ) dazza  I have an awfully clean tip at the rear end  and running hot as .

the adjustable fpr is going in real soon, Karuah is just around the corner .


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

43Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:30 pm

Two Wheels Better

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Ah, Karuah. I remember that rainy year. Wait a mo', it rained every year I went! Have a great time. When I read the news (daily) from OZ and look at the weather forecast (twice daily. Tragic, I know) I get a wee bit homesick. There's something about dark, grey, cloud-covered days in the Pacific North West that make a man wanna jump on a bike and head south to warmer climes. It's such an indoor lifestyle up here, but at least it's not too cold. But where's that bloody sun?! Moles, that's what we resemble. I'd better get back to putting this project K together.


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'77 R75/7-1000cc, '87 K100RS, '93 K11/K12 Big Block, '94 R100R Mystic, '03 K1200GT, '04 R1150RT, '06 K1200R, '07 K1200R & 2009 K1300GT
    

44Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:40 am

Rustybottom

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I'm not going to lie, but this thread, and the online research it provokes is really hurting my brain. I took a screenshot of some numbers this dude recorded of BMW injectors in the bimmerfest.com forums.






He has the 415 and 715 at almost exactly the same output at 3 bar. Seems to me those two injectors are almost identical at the same pressure. Am I missing something? I know they should be running close to their designed pressure, or the gas dribbles,whooshes out inefficiently, but otherwise...


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An object at rest, CANNOT BE STOPPED!
1985 K100 cafe faired, 1978 Suzuki GS550
    

45Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:45 am

Two Wheels Better

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There are physical differences between Bosch injectors. An R1100 oilhead injector, won't fit an R1150, for example.


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'77 R75/7-1000cc, '87 K100RS, '93 K11/K12 Big Block, '94 R100R Mystic, '03 K1200GT, '04 R1150RT, '06 K1200R, '07 K1200R & 2009 K1300GT
    

46Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:14 am

K75cster

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charlie99 wrote:sounds like they would be getting close to equalizing my lean mix (after port modification ) dazza  I have an awfully clean tip at the rear end  and running hot as .

the adjustable fpr is going in real soon, Karuah is just around the corner .

Lean Mix Charlie, aren't you going to change the map flap to instruct the cpu to deliver the fuel you want?


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

47Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:47 am

charlie99

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yes done that a little bit keith  ( 2 clicks (

looks as though the current fpr is running a little low on pressure..  see my resto thread

have a new fpr just being mounted in and bracket now made ...just waiting for paint to dry  before mounting ,,,tomorrow should see it in and adjusted up


now looking for a fuel resistant thread locker for the new angled input barb


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

48Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:20 am

Chocolate

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# thanks Kaptain. Taking up this older thread.

For my K75/91 I just purchased and installed the 415 (4 hole) and I have a smother running machine.
They where sold for a BMW care and have been refurbished by BOSCH, I payed 60€

There are many on the marked for cars, I don't know if refurbishing the old original would have given the same result.
I'm looking for three more for my other K75

What about the Bmw part Nr 13641736908
Originally Bosch Nr 0 280 150 778 ???
I could get 8 refurbished from Bosch for a BMW V8 car for 90€
V8 BMW M60B40 M60B30 E30 540i 740i

BOSCH LINK list
http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/InjectorRatesBosch.html





Cheers


__________________________________________________
Only a few activities make me experience my senses in a way motorcycle riding does, it is like swimming in the nude in a river.
K75 BA/1992 ABS, K75 BA/1991 noABS, Ducati, Mobylette M1/1973
Pictures: Me my bike and I
    

49Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:41 am

K75cster

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charlie99 wrote:yes done that a little bit keith  ( 2 clicks (

looks as though the current fpr is running a little low on pressure..  see my resto thread

have a new fpr just being mounted in and bracket now made ...just waiting for paint to dry  before mounting ,,,tomorrow should see it in and adjusted up


now looking for a fuel resistant thread locker for the new angled input barb

So what psi did you end up with Charlie I note 2.5bar =133cc/min and 2.7bar =144 on the injector ratios bosch site for a 208 so maybe our 210 delivers the same?


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

50Back to top Go down    Re: 1 hole Vs 4 hole injectors on Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:00 am

charlie99

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about 3 bar mate (vacuum hose disconnected ---which gave it about 2.5 - 2.7 bar with vacuum pulsing at idle ) ...the spray pattern on these injectors seams to benefit the slight extra pressure

note I retracted the afm springing back to 1 click down from standard ,( could have left it at 2 clicks down in spring tension but felt that economy would suffer greatly )  ...and relocated the wiper to achieve 1.16 volts on closed throttle  instead of the 1.68 or something that I read as static settings before I started on this particular afm . thats from memory .


which kinda comes into line with the link I found for some measured standards ...that could have been from a much younger and unmolested  afm - bike


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

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