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1Back to top Go down    Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:59 pm

TIV

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I started a major overhaul on my K75RT today. Including of course spline lube, all fluids, new clutch and throttle cables, new tires e.t.c, e.t.c. When I took the gearbox out I found that there is engine oil on the inside of the clutch housing, not enough to leak out of the hole, but to much to be acceptable. So I took the clutch out, the disk and other components are in great shape but I found that the main seal is more than 1mm deeper than being flush to the housing. If I understand this right this would then be more than 1.5mm to deep since 0.5 should be protruding at the rear. 

One question: Some people say that you should soak the seal in oil for some period of time. Others say that the lip should not be oiled because the lip is supposed to "burnish in" when you start running the bike again. If I remember correctly Mr. Haynes himself says just to oil it lightly on the outside and push it in.

What a Face


__________________________________________________
1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

Cheers TIV
    

2Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:22 am

Inge K.

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@TIV wrote: I found that the main seal is more than 1mm deeper than being flush to the housing. If I understand this right this would then be more than 1.5mm to deep since 0.5 should be protruding at the rear. 

One question: Some people say that you should soak the seal in oil for some period of time. Others say that the lip should not be oiled because the lip is supposed to "burnish in" when you start running the bike again.

Traditional nitril seals should be soaked in oil, seals with a teflon lip should
be mounted dry.
Most seals used by BMW has a teflon lip since many years back, it's also
usually marked on the seal that it should be mounted dry "trocken montieren".
The outer circumference can of course be lubed, to ease the mounting.
The use of teflon lip is also the reason the main seal should be mounted 0,5mm
proud of the surface, this lip is much wider than a traditional seal.

Could also be a idea to order the o-ring under the clutch nut, this become
brittle and usually starts to leak long before the main seal.



__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

3Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:15 am

TIV

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Hi Inge. I ordered everything needed from Motorworks. Seal, 6 bolts and shims, nut and O ring. It's not specified on their website if it is a Teflon seal, but I guess it is.


__________________________________________________
1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

Cheers TIV
    

4Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:44 am

Inge K.

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@TIV wrote:It's not specified on their website if it is a Teflon seal, but I guess it is.

If Motorworks deliver the OEM seals, it would be one with a teflon lip.
Easy difference: seals with a teflon lip don't have a garter spring, like
the traditionally nitril type radial lip seal.

The teflon lip seals must be pre shaped....and you must make your own
mounting tool of a plastic pill box or similar...search the forum, it's some
threads about this theme.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

5Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:25 am

TIV

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Great tip Inge, I will see what people say about this in the forum and learn from it.

Among other stuff I found this:

VERY IMPORTANT UP DATE
have just spoken to a seal manufacturer because the new seals inside dia (I know its not an accurate way of measuring)is approx 42mm but the basket shaft that goes through it is 50mm!
The size on the seal says inner dia 50mm. WHAT THIS MEANS IS....you HAVE TO manipulate & form the lip between your fingers bending it gently & easing the lip open to approx 50mm then place over the shaft leaving it for a while. This helps form the seal lip into an inner size of 50mm. They say a wipe of oil SHOULD BE USED. The seal must then be quickly installed & the basket shaft installed before the seals inner lip can return back to its flat size ie 42mm.
QUOTE ....If oil wasnt used or the seal was not expanded first, pushing the shaft through the seal will punch the center of the seal out exactly as mine did!!!! IF ONLY THEY HAD TOLD ME THISHE SAID HE THOUGHT EVERYONE WOULD KNOW THIS BY NOW!!!!
APPARENTLY THIS IS AN UPDATED SEAL its better than the old type with the spring that helps keep the lip in contact with the shaft.



Last edited by TIV on Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Addition of info found on the Bimmerforum)


__________________________________________________
1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

Cheers TIV
    

6Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:24 pm

Point-Seven-five

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42mm??? Are we talking about the rear main seal?  The Max BMW parts fiche lists that seal as TEFLON 50x80x10.

When I installed mine I just lubed it up with a thin wipe of engine oil and slipped the clutch hub into it.  8000 miles later it is still working fine.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1994 K75S
1992 K100RS

Past:
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

7Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:10 pm

Laitch

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@Point-Seven-five wrote:42mm??? Are we talking about the rear main seal?
To me it seems we are.

What seems to be conveyed here by both Inge and the seal manufacturer quoted by TIV is that the Teflon seal is designed to fit around a 50mm shaft. Its inner opening contracts when manufactured and needs to be opened to fit easily over the shaft then driven into position as soon as that opening has conformed to the circumference of the shaft. The Teflon seal is labeled "dry-mount"—probably to distinguish it from the "oil-soaked" previous versions.  Inge has indicated that a skim-coat of oil on the perimeter aids installation.

If you installed a Teflon seal, yours installed without that manipulation perhaps due to warmer temperatures of the components or slight composition variation in the seal.

    

8Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:21 pm

Inge K.

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The idea behind the plastic pill bottle is to aid the preshaping so you don't have manipulate the lip between your fingers and so on.....
After you have mounted the seal in the engine, then carefully move a 50 mm plastic pill bottle/or something similar with a chamfered/rounded end.
After a couple of hours (maybe more on Iceland  Blizzard )remove the bottle, and insert the clutch hub gently.

About the dry mounting....the lips made of teflon have much less friction/runs cooler so lubrication isn't needed. Using oil doesn't destroy the seal, just prolongs the break in time.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

9Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:04 pm

Crazy Frog

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As I have to replace the output shaft seal on one of my K, I found this thread very interesting. Thanks to all for sharing your experience.


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1986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML sidecar.
    

10Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:29 pm

TIV

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Inge wrote:After a couple of hours (maybe more on Iceland  Blizzard )

Inge, this hurt a wee bit. 

http://www.yr.no/place/Norway/Østfold/Fredrikstad/Fredrikstad/
http://www.yr.no/place/Iceland/Capital_Region/Reykjavik/


__________________________________________________
1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

Cheers TIV
    

11Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:39 pm

Inge K.

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You don't need teflon lips on the seals to keep the friction temp down,
looks like they are water cooled these days.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

12Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:43 pm

Inge K.

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@Crazy Frog wrote:As I have to replace the output shaft seal on one of my K, I found this thread very interesting.

I think it was a service bulletin about this subject when BMW started to use
the seals with teflon lips......maybe you have it in your collection.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

13Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:47 pm

TIV

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@Inge K. wrote:You don't need teflon lips on the seals to keep the friction temp down,
looks like they are water cooled these days.


__________________________________________________
1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

Cheers TIV
    

14Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:52 pm

Inge K.

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@Inge K. wrote:
@Crazy Frog wrote:As I have to replace the output shaft seal on one of my K, I found this thread very interesting.

I think it was a service bulletin about this subject when BMW started to use
the seals with teflon lips......maybe you have it in your collection.

Yes, you have it here you Lucky man.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

15Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:24 am

TIV

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Great info.


__________________________________________________
1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

Cheers TIV
    

16Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:39 pm

gabriel


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hi

Found this on the internet.

Damaged PTFE Sealing Lip
The most frequent cause for failure is damage to
the PTFE sealing lip during assembly. If the seal
is installed without the help of a sleeve or special tool, and is shifted or even turned inside out, reliable sealing will hardly be possible. Similarly, the use of oil or grease – as with classical oil sealing rings – will result in total failure of the PTFE oil seal immediately after installation.

Glazer.es

Hope this helps.

    

17Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:34 pm

Laitch

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@gabriel wrote:Found this on the internet.
Damaged PTFE Sealing Lip . . .
Can you supply a link to that, Gabriel?

    

18Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:23 pm

Kando

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Okay guys what do I do now?  


   A  couple of weeks back I put the seat back on my K75 after tearing down the back end. Well this seal is the first item in the re assembly and was fitted in the very same way that I must have fitted many dozens of lip seals over the past 50 years and more of spanner wielding, okay it looked a bit different, was brown, seen that before, but no instructions for a special fit procedure on the pack. Good ole' Haynes didn't mention Teflon, the manuals not for a frying pan and I don't seem to remember buying a full BMW Works Manual.
 Nor did I join this Forum Font of K knowledge soon enough!!! Grrrrrrrr that'll teach me to think I know what to do, and after reading this thread that says ''no problem'' or ''doom, gloom and guaranteed failure, I still don't!

  So what is the collective wisdom on this?

   1/ sod it and hope that this is one of the lucky ones
   2/ tear it all down, fit a new seal to save possibly wrecking a new clutch plate
   3/ can't think of a third choice (there's always three!)

 All opinions wellcome Chatter

    

19Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:27 pm

TIV

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Here is the new seal I got from Motorworks. Jago 80x50x10 made in Taiwan. As can be seen on the photo it comes with a plastic insert that preshapes the lip of the seal. The insert measures 49.95 mm with my digital caliper. (Hope the link works, let me know if it doesn´t)

Jago Main Seal

Jago Main Seal 2




Last edited by TIV on Tue May 09, 2017 1:39 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Addition of link)


__________________________________________________
1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

Cheers TIV
    

20Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:52 pm

Rockman


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@Kando wrote:Okay guys what do I do now?  


   A  couple of weeks back I put the seat back on my K75 after tearing down the back end. Well this seal is the first item in the re assembly and was fitted in the very same way that I must have fitted many dozens of lip seals over the past 50 years and more of spanner wielding, okay it looked a bit different, was brown, seen that before, but no instructions for a special fit procedure on the pack. Good ole' Haynes didn't mention Teflon, the manuals not for a frying pan and I don't seem to remember buying a full BMW Works Manual.
 Nor did I join this Forum Font of K knowledge soon enough!!! Grrrrrrrr that'll teach me to think I know what to do, and after reading this thread that says ''no problem'' or ''doom, gloom and guaranteed failure, I still don't!

  So what is the collective wisdom on this?

   1/ sod it and hope that this is one of the lucky ones
   2/ tear it all down, fit a new seal to save possibly wrecking a new clutch plate
   3/ can't think of a third choice (there's always three!)

 All opinions wellcome Chatter

I just fitted the one on my K100 as per normal just as you have. Its been ok for the last 5000 km, so I reckon just run it and see what happens.

    

21Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:00 pm

Kando

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@TIV wrote:Here is the new seal I got from Motorworks. Jago 80x50x10 made in Taiwan. As can be seen on the photo it comes with a plastic insert that preshapes the lip of the seal. The insert measures 49.95 mm with my digital caliper. (Hope the link works, let me know if it doesn´t)

Jago Main Seal

 
Yes, the link worked but I cannot remember there being an insert as well, though there might have been. In the morning I will get in touch with the guys at Motorworks and by referring back to my order # we might be able to figure out what was sent to me and if it had a Teflon lip.

 If the consensus is the pull it now while the bike's off the road, it isn't a big deal I've got a good shed/shop and it's only spanner time. I I do take it apart, what's the view on changing the 'one use' clutch bolts and washers- - yay or nay?
In the great scheme of things the time/trouble will be much less aggro than would be the case if the drive went tits up with a loaded sidecar- up in the Scottish Highlands-in the rain-on a Sunday- at the start of a holiday! Oh! that would be such fun wouldn't it?

    

22Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:07 pm

Kando

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Thanks Rockman, that's one vote for chancing it. Hmmm...... I've not much of a gambler any more.......age I guess.

    

23Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:36 pm

gabriel


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@TIV wrote:Great tip Inge, I will see what people say about this in the forum and learn from it.

Among other stuff I found this:

VERY IMPORTANT UP DATE
have just spoken to a seal manufacturer because the new seals inside dia (I know its not an accurate way of measuring)is approx 42mm but the basket shaft that goes through it is 50mm!
The size on the seal says inner dia 50mm. WHAT THIS MEANS IS....you HAVE TO manipulate & form the lip between your fingers bending it gently & easing the lip open to approx 50mm then place over the shaft leaving it for a while. This helps form the seal lip into an inner size of 50mm. They say a wipe of oil SHOULD BE USED. The seal must then be quickly installed & the basket shaft installed before the seals inner lip can return back to its flat size ie 42mm.
QUOTE ....If oil wasnt used or the seal was not expanded first, pushing the shaft through the seal will punch the center of the seal out exactly as mine did!!!! IF ONLY THEY HAD TOLD ME THISHE SAID HE THOUGHT EVERYONE WOULD KNOW THIS BY NOW!!!!
APPARENTLY THIS IS AN UPDATED SEAL its better than the old type with the spring that helps keep the lip in contact with the shaft.


Hi
This is just my opinion. Teflon oil seals should be inserted dry. In fact both surfaces should be dry and clean.
The inner teflon lip will be always be a smaller diameter than the shaft so it can form an oil tight seal.
The plastic insert or for example a bill bottle is used to insert the oil seal to prevent the seal from turning inside out.
If you can picture an oil seal with an inner teflon lip which is flexible, as soon as it's passed through a shaft, the inner lip, because it's a smaller diameter will be pushed out, in other words, will be inside out.
The inner lip when properly installed should point inwards facing the oil.

There is a PDF file on the website raser.es which explains in detail teflon oils seals the correct procedure to install them.
When I installed the front oil seal, I adapted a toilet roll which enabled me to install the oil seal without the inner lip been turned inside out.
The inner seal will slowly expand and form an oil tight seal.

It is recommended both surfaces must be dry and clean and to allow approximately four hours for the inner lip to expand and form a seal before starting the engine.
Unfortunately, not all manufacturers include the plastic tool with their seal.

Hope this helps..









    

24Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:50 pm

gabriel


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@Laitch wrote:
@gabriel wrote:Found this on the internet.
Damaged PTFE Sealing Lip . . .
Can you supply a link to that, Gabriel?


Hi

The website is glazer.es, in "products" select Oil seals. On the right hand side of the screen there is a PDF file.

    

25Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:10 pm

gabriel


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@TIV wrote:I started a major overhaul on my K75RT today. Including of course spline lube, all fluids, new clutch and throttle cables, new tires e.t.c, e.t.c. When I took the gearbox out I found that there is engine oil on the inside of the clutch housing, not enough to leak out of the hole, but to much to be acceptable. So I took the clutch out, the disk and other components are in great shape but I found that the main seal is more than 1mm deeper than being flush to the housing. If I understand this right this would then be more than 1.5mm to deep since 0.5 should be protruding at the rear. 

One question: Some people say that you should soak the seal in oil for some period of time. Others say that the lip should not be oiled because the lip is supposed to
"burnish in" when you start running the bike again. If I remember correctly Mr. Haynes himself says just to oil it lightly on the outside and push it in.

What a Face


Hi
oil seal manufacturers usually recommend the new seal should not run in the same position as the old one.
When the shaft rotates against a stationary oil seal, there will be some wear in the shaft.
Best policy is to place the new oil seal in a new position on the shaft.
I don't consider a discrepancy of a few millimetres is going to create any serious issues.
Just my opinion.
Haynes manual doesn't mention about the correct procedure for inserting teflon seals because they were most likely not available or in common use when the manual was written? My guess.


    

26Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:56 am

TIV

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@gabriel wrote:Hi
This is just my opinion. Teflon oil seals should be inserted dry. In fact both surfaces should be dry and clean.
The inner teflon lip will be always be a smaller diameter than the shaft so it can form an oil tight seal.
The plastic insert or for example a bill bottle is used to insert the oil seal to prevent the seal from turning inside out.
If you can picture an oil seal with an inner teflon lip which is flexible, as soon as it's passed through a shaft, the inner lip, because it's a smaller diameter will be pushed out, in other words, will be inside out.
The inner lip when properly installed should point inwards facing the oil.

There is a PDF file on the website raser.es which explains in detail teflon oils seals the correct procedure to install them.
When I installed the front oil seal, I adapted a toilet roll which enabled me to install the oil seal without the inner lip been turned inside out.
The inner seal will slowly expand and form an oil tight seal.

It is recommended both surfaces must be dry and clean and to allow approximately four hours for the inner lip to expand and form a seal before starting the engine.
Unfortunately, not all manufacturers include the plastic tool with their seal.
Thanks Gabriel. I think this post summarizes this issue quite well:
Preshape the lip with some 50mm tool (easy)
Lip forward
Install with both surfaces dry
Leave for at least 4 hours before starting the engine
.... and leave 0.5mm protruding from the rear of housing


__________________________________________________
1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

Cheers TIV
    

27Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:54 am

Guest


Guest
@TIV wrote:Great tip Inge, I will see what people say about this in the forum and learn from it.

Among other stuff I found this:

VERY IMPORTANT UP DATE
have just spoken to a seal manufacturer because the new seals inside dia (I know its not an accurate way of measuring)is approx 42mm but the basket shaft that goes through it is 50mm!
The size on the seal says inner dia 50mm. WHAT THIS MEANS IS....you HAVE TO manipulate & form the lip between your fingers bending it gently & easing the lip open to approx 50mm then place over the shaft leaving it for a while. This helps form the seal lip into an inner size of 50mm. They say a wipe of oil SHOULD BE USED. The seal must then be quickly installed & the basket shaft installed before the seals inner lip can return back to its flat size ie 42mm.
QUOTE ....If oil wasnt used or the seal was not expanded first, pushing the shaft through the seal will punch the center of the seal out exactly as mine did!!!! IF ONLY THEY HAD TOLD ME THISHE SAID HE THOUGHT EVERYONE WOULD KNOW THIS BY NOW!!!!
APPARENTLY THIS IS AN UPDATED SEAL its better than the old type with the spring that helps keep the lip in contact with the shaft.
hi there TIV ive just  [ 3 weeks ago ] bought and installed a new rear main seal to replace the 24 yo original one and the seal motorworks supplied is the type that they say you have to soak in oil for 2 hrs before installing into the crankcase , what i did was take the white plastic ring out of the inner part of the seal chuck it into the rubbish bin soaked the seal for 2 hrs in engine oil then took it out and wiped it of any excess oil and installed it into the crankcase using a ball peine hammer till it was flush or possibly 1/2 a mm or less slightly inward towards the output shaft then installed the clutch carrier housing into the seal and slid on the spline  so i cant see how the lip of the seal can be made to come out towards the outside it can only go one way all this hocus pocus of forming the lip is a old wives tale i just got off the phone to motorworks and they agree with me so i rest my case will it leak?? time will tell as the girl said to the sailer " we'll just have to suck it and see " i dont understand what you mean by " punch the centre of the seal out " ? have you got a photo of the damaged one you could show  please im curious , as the motor and box is still on the bench and im reluctant to pull it all apart back to the seal to find out there was nothing wrong

    

28Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:04 am

Guest


Guest
@Point-Seven-five wrote:42mm??? Are we talking about the rear main seal?  The Max BMW parts fiche lists that seal as TEFLON 50x80x10.

When I installed mine I just lubed it up with a thin wipe of engine oil and slipped the clutch hub into it.  8000 miles later it is still working fine.
exactly what i did to my seal ,was your's the one from motorworks  or a genuine one from MAX BMW

    

29Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:08 pm

Kando

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Well another vote for leaving it alone from Woodcutter. I called the guy at Motorworks who supplied my seal and he said what's going on I've had this conversation already today with a guy from Oz Laughing . The gist of the conversation is that he reckoned that they fit as per normal procedure, just as Woodcutter's posts 28 & 29, dunk in oil, fit, then gently insert clutch carrier spigot through the seal and feed onto the splines and push home. This will ensure that the sealing lip faces towards the front of the engine where the oil is, there's no direct pressure feed anywhere near the seal, and a sealing lip whether it's made of Teflon, leather or fairy feathers, will be pushed that way by the periphery of the clutch carrier stub shaft. When you fit the seal to the bell housing recess around the output shaft there is absolutely nothing that could 'bend the lip one way or the other.

 So I'm leaving mine as it is until I've done another 102k miles and it needs another clutch change, if the seal does leak a bit any oil will be centrifuged off the clutch carrier cover the inside of the bell housing and dribble out the hole underneath.

    

30Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:32 pm

TIV

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Hi woodcutter. I did not write that, as I said in my previous post I found it at another forum. "Punching out the seal" must mean that when inserting the Clutch Housing he ripped out or punched out the middle or the lip of the seal. It seems logical to me that this can happen if you don't preshape the lip and force the Clutch Housing in. Right? As clearly stated before in this thread, backed up with photos I bought a Jago Teflon seal from Motorworks.


__________________________________________________
1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

Cheers TIV
    

31Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:56 pm

gabriel


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@TIV wrote:
@gabriel wrote:Hi
This is just my opinion. Teflon oil seals should be inserted dry. In fact both surfaces should be dry and clean.
The inner teflon lip will be always be a smaller diameter than the shaft so it can form an oil tight seal.
The plastic insert or for example a bill bottle is used to insert the oil seal to prevent the seal from turning inside out.
If you can picture an oil seal with an inner teflon lip which is flexible, as soon as it's passed through a shaft, the inner lip, because it's a smaller diameter will be pushed out, in other words, will be inside out.
The inner lip when properly installed should point inwards facing the oil.

There is a PDF file on the website raser.es which explains in detail teflon oils seals the correct procedure to install them.
When I installed the front oil seal, I adapted a toilet roll which enabled me to install the oil seal without the inner lip been turned inside out.
The inner seal will slowly expand and form an oil tight seal.

It is recommended both surfaces must be dry and clean and to allow approximately four hours for the inner lip to expand and form a seal before starting the engine.
Unfortunately, not all manufacturers include the plastic tool with their seal.
Thanks Gabriel. I think this post summarizes this issue quite well:
Preshape the lip with some 50mm tool (easy)
Lip forward
Install with both surfaces dry
Leave for at least 4 hours before starting the engine
.... and leave 0.5mm protruding from the rear of housing

Hi

I agree.
I think we sometimes overthink situations. There is a lot of detailed information about this topic on the internet.
The tricky part of the installation is ensuring the inner lip of the seal doesn't turn inside out, because as soon as the seal is pushed onto the shaft, that's what is going to happen. The plastic sleeve or equivalent is needed.

I don't understand why some people ignore the experts.....soaking it in oil, throwing the inner plastic sleeve in the bin? ... yes, it might initially work but will soon deteriate..
Experts sometimes make mistakes but why ignore them completely?
The guy at Motorworks who suggests soaking them in oil....oh dear......he should have a read of the website raiser.es before giving dodgy advice to consumers.
The website raiser.es sums it up perfectly........
There is a reason manufacturers include an temporary inner plastic sleeve....and it's not for it to be thrown in the bin!
Soaking them in oil might affect the teflon's ability to expand and form a seal with the shaft....who knows?
I installed my front engine oil seal completely dry, there was some minor and careful manipulation of the teflon lip to ensure it wasn't turned inside out, and waited overnight for the seal to expand and adjust to the shape of the shaft.....
No problems whatsoever since then....
The seal is installed with the plastic sleeve attached and then you carefully withdraw the sleeve. The website raser.es includes diagrams.
Yes, the stub shaft of the clutch carrier might push the inner seal lip to the correct position, it might also damage it....
Oil seals should be installed prior to replacing engine components....
im no expert.....just my opinion...

    

32Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:23 pm

TIV

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Silver member
Silver member
Gabriel, I was trying to find this website you mention, raiser.es. Can´t find it.



Last edited by TIV on Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling error)


__________________________________________________
1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

Cheers TIV
    

33Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:26 pm

mike d


Life time member
Life time member
There is a major Classic bike show in Stafford (UK) this weekend. The guys from Motorworks will be there, so I will have a chat about the teflon seal advice that you have been given. 

Mike

    

34Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:31 am

gabriel


Silver member
Silver member
@TIV wrote:Gabriel, I was trying to find this website you mention, raiser.es. Can´t find it.


Glaser.es...select Products, oil seals...PDF fil.
Sorry.....


    

35Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:38 am

gabriel


Silver member
Silver member
Hi

1. Only remove PTFE oil seals from their protective packaging immediately before installation, to protect them from dust and other contamination.
2. The sealing lip of PTFE oil seals is protected by a plastic sleeve, which can normally be used as an assembly aid. Therefore, the sleeve should remain in place until the seal has been installed.
3. If the seal is to be installed without the sleeve, use the special tool provided by the
4. Both the PTFE sealing lip and the shaft surface must be completely dry. Do not use any grease or oil.
8. Make sure that the sealing ring is aligned correctly – the sleeve must be located so that the seal can be pushed onto the shaft smoothly.
9.Push the sealing ring onto the shaft with an even motion.
10. When replacing, the PTFE lip of
5. The shaft may not exhibit any
sharp-edged chamfers – if
necessary, have the edges
removed by an engine expert.
6. The shaft surface must be in a
perfect condition – also here,
possible damage must be one.
repaired by an expert.
7. Position the assembly sleeve with the PTFE oil seal on the
11. You can now remove the assembly sleeve.
12. Do not start the engine sooner
the new seal should not run in the same position as the old
TIP FROM THE EXPERTS
manufacturer. shaft.
If these practical hints and the manufacturer’s recommendations are observed, the PTFE oil seal will give reliable service.
than four hours after installation – this permits the new seal-
ing lip to adapt perfectly to the shaft.

sorry. The info was in three columns and has changed when it was copied to this post.


Copied from the glaser.es website.....

    

36Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:49 am

gabriel


Silver member
Silver member


HI

This a YouTube video on how to install a teflon oil seal by the victor reinz company.

I was finding it difficult to understand how the plastic sleeve helps the installation process.
This is my understanding...the plastic sleeve expands the inner diameter of the seal to the extend that it would very difficult for the lip to turn inside out when the oil seal is installed and the sleeve removed. Just my opinion...
https://youtu.be/-6Ihd06oJmc

    

37Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:03 am

Guest


Guest
@gabriel wrote:Hi

1. Only remove PTFE oil seals from their protective packaging immediately before installation, to protect them from dust and other contamination.
2. The sealing lip of PTFE oil seals is protected by a plastic sleeve, which can normally be used as an assembly aid. Therefore, the sleeve should remain in place until the seal has been installed.
3. If the seal is to be installed without the sleeve, use the special tool provided by the
4. Both the PTFE sealing lip and the shaft surface must be completely dry. Do not use any grease or oil.
8. Make sure that the sealing ring is aligned correctly – the sleeve must be located so that the seal can be pushed onto the shaft smoothly.
9.Push the sealing ring onto the shaft with an even motion.
10. When replacing, the PTFE lip of
5. The shaft may not exhibit any
sharp-edged chamfers – if
necessary, have the edges
removed by an engine expert.
6. The shaft surface must be in a
perfect condition – also here,
possible damage must be one.
repaired by an expert.
7. Position the assembly sleeve with the PTFE oil seal on the
11. You can now remove the assembly sleeve.
12. Do not start the engine sooner
the new seal should not run in the same position as the old
TIP FROM THE EXPERTS
manufacturer. shaft.
If these practical hints and the manufacturer’s recommendations are observed, the PTFE oil seal will give reliable service.
than four hours after installation – this permits the new seal-
ing lip to adapt perfectly to the shaft.

sorry. The info was in three columns and has changed when it was copied to this post.


Copied from the glaser.es website.....

hi gabriel this is the most humorous thread i've ever read about re installing a rear main seal into a k series motor or any motor for that matter of fact imho i think its a joke

    

38Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:12 am

Guest


Guest
@mike d wrote:There is a major Classic bike show in Stafford (UK) this weekend. The guys from Motorworks will be there, so I will have a chat about the teflon seal advice that you have been given. 

Mike
hi mike when you talk to the guys from motorworks  this weekend can you ask them if their rear main seals are teflon lip or viton lip ones  as i've been told 2 versions so far from my correspondence with them and quiz them on the correct method of installation im curious to know how they would install one  to many versions on the forum  cheers and best regards

    

39Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:17 am

Guest


Guest
@mike d wrote:There is a major Classic bike show in Stafford (UK) this weekend. The guys from Motorworks will be there, so I will have a chat about the teflon seal advice that you have been given. 

Mike
hi mike when you talk to the guys from motorworks  this weekend can you ask them if their rear main seals are teflon lip or viton lip ones  as i've been told 2 versions so far from my correspondence with them and quiz them on the correct method of installation im curious to know how they would install one  to many versions on the forum  cheers and best regards

    

40Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:10 am

TIV

avatar
Silver member
Silver member
"hi gabriel this is the most humorous thread i've ever read about re installing a rear main seal into a k series motor or any motor for that matter of fact imho i think its a joke"

I think this remark is a joke and disrespect to other members of this forum. To come rushing into a topic/thread with assumptions and stupid questions as you have done in this case shows clearly that you have only read part of the this thread woodcutter. This is a fantastic forum and lot can be learned from the knowledgable and polite members.

I have been restoring, maintaining and riding motorcycles the best part of 40 years and part of the fun is to learn how to do things properly and right.



Last edited by TIV on Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________
1990 BMW K75RT Ex-Police
1992 Yamaha FJ1200

Cheers TIV
    

41Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:22 am

Inge K.

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VIP
VIP
And thats the second time in a short time he's have a comment a how stupid
members of this forum is.

This forum is about helping people with problems related to  the early K,
stay home/away/out, instead off telling members how stupid they are.....
it ain't doing any good for anyone.....but maybe for yourself.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

42Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:26 am

Chocolate

avatar
Life time member
Life time member
@Inge K. wrote:And thats the second time in a short time he's have a comment a how stupid
members of this forum is.

This forum is about helping people with problems related to  the early K,
stay home/away/out, instead off telling members how stupid they are.....
it ain't doing any good for anyone.....but maybe for yourself.

I agree!

Cheers


__________________________________________________
Only a few activities make me experience my senses in a way motorcycle riding does, it is like swimming in the nude in a river.
K75 BA/1992 ABS, K75 BA/1991 noABS, Ducati, Mobylette M1/1973
Pictures: Me my bike and I
    

43Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:24 pm

mike d


Life time member
Life time member
woodcutter wrote:
@mike d wrote:There is a major Classic bike show in Stafford (UK) this weekend. The guys from Motorworks will be there, so I will have a chat about the teflon seal advice that you have been given. 

Mike
hi mike when you talk to the guys from motorworks  this weekend can you ask them if their rear main seals are teflon lip or viton lip ones  as i've been told 2 versions so far from my correspondence with them and quiz them on the correct method of installation im curious to know how they would install one  to many versions on the forum  cheers and best regards

It's on my list of things to do/see. Just arranged to meet a friend at the Motorworks stand so will ask then.

Mike

    

44Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:47 pm

gabriel


Silver member
Silver member
@TIV wrote:Gabriel, I was trying to find this website you mention, raiser.es. Can´t find it.


Hi

Apologies for the error.
This is the link
http://glaser.es/functions/csdownload3.aspx?id=370&org=004&key=207d722cb900997711e24073dc6d8a8977e6dbaa7f72bf7bbb433b1dded860a9

I hope it helps you decide the best approach to your problem.

Ta

    

45Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:32 pm

gabriel


Silver member
Silver member
woodcutter wrote:
@gabriel wrote:Hi

1. Only remove PTFE oil seals from their protective packaging immediately before installation, to protect them from dust and other contamination.
2. The sealing lip of PTFE oil seals is protected by a plastic sleeve, which can normally be used as an assembly aid. Therefore, the sleeve should remain in place until the seal has been installed.
3. If the seal is to be installed without the sleeve, use the special tool provided by the
4. Both the PTFE sealing lip and the shaft surface must be completely dry. Do not use any grease or oil.
8. Make sure that the sealing ring is aligned correctly – the sleeve must be located so that the seal can be pushed onto the shaft smoothly.
9.Push the sealing ring onto the shaft with an even motion.
10. When replacing, the PTFE lip of
5. The shaft may not exhibit any
sharp-edged chamfers – if
necessary, have the edges
removed by an engine expert.
6. The shaft surface must be in a
perfect condition – also here,
possible damage must be one.
repaired by an expert.
7. Position the assembly sleeve with the PTFE oil seal on the
11. You can now remove the assembly sleeve.
12. Do not start the engine sooner
the new seal should not run in the same position as the old
TIP FROM THE EXPERTS
manufacturer. shaft.
If these practical hints and the manufacturer’s recommendations are observed, the PTFE oil seal will give reliable service.
than four hours after installation – this permits the new seal-
ing lip to adapt perfectly to the shaft.

sorry. The info was in three columns and has changed when it was copied to this post.


Copied from the glaser.es website.....

hi gabriel this is the most humorous thread i've ever read about re installing a rear main seal into a k series motor or any motor for that matter of fact imho i think its a joke

Hi woodcutter
I'm happy for you that you found this post to be humorous and a joke.
your post which explained in detail your unique approach to installing an oil seal by
-disposing of the inner plastic sleeve (it's there to protect the seal and to make it easy to install),
- soaking the oil seal in oil for a few hours (unfortunately woodcutter, this isn't 1938 and we're not using rope seals and
-using a metal peen hammer to install the oil seal (metal peen hammer is for metalwork..I suppose your should use this hammer if you want to do some metal work on your engine cases) is also humorous....for me..anyway...
The information I posted was found in numerous websites, belonging to companies like victorreinz and SFK, who are world leaders in the manufacture and distribution of oil seals.
I also don't understand where Motorworks got this idea about soaking oil seals in oil for two hours. This was a practice going back to the days when rope seals were used. Nitrile seals have an inner metal housing. Why soak them in oil? a smear of oil on the outer edge is sufficient. I couldn't find any information on the internet which supports this practice.
One of the advantages of teflon seals is the time saving factor, up to a third...
I'm having a laugh at the prospect of car manufacturers soaking their oil seals in oil for two hours. I don't think so.

Woodcutter, the link I have posted is mostly for your benefit. You will be happy to know it also includes photos of damaged seals.
Please understand, this forum is successful because it's members support and respect each other's opinions and advice.
We also learn.
This isn't a pissing competition. Does it matter who is right?
With the assistance of this forum, especially INGE, I am now riding my k100 and enjoying every minute of it.
Apologies for the lengthy post.

http://glaser.es/functions/csdownload3.aspx?id=370&org=004&key=207d722cb900997711e24073dc6d8a8977e6dbaa7f72bf7bbb433b1dded860a9




    

46Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:47 pm

Inge K.

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VIP
VIP
@gabriel wrote: With the assistance of this forum, especially INGE, I am now riding my k100 and enjoying every minute of it.

Thanks. Very Happy


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

47Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:37 pm

Guest


Guest
@Inge K. wrote:
@gabriel wrote: With the assistance of this forum, especially INGE, I am now riding my k100 and enjoying every minute of it.

Thanks. Very Happy
hi inge ive just posted a reply to your 's and tivs reply to me and its not listed why  have i been banned from posting now what gives ????   steve

    

48Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:48 pm

Guest


Guest
@TIV wrote:"hi gabriel this is the most humorous thread i've ever read about re installing a rear main seal into a k series motor or any motor for that matter of fact imho i think its a joke"

I think this remark is a joke and disrespect to other members of this forum. To come rushing into a topic/thread with assumptions and stupid questions as you have done in this case shows clearly that you have only read part of the this thread woodcutter. This is a fantastic forum and lot can be learned from the knowledgable and polite members.

I have been restoring, maintaining and riding motorcycles the best part of 40 years and part of the fun is to learn how to do things properly and right.
well tiv firstly i still think it as a joke , and secondly i meant no disrespect to you or any other member on this forum , thirdly i haven't come rushing in to this topic/thread with assumptions and stupid questions . you claim to have been maintaining , restoring , and riding motorcycles for the best part of 40 years, well so do i , and not wanting to brag or big note i probably have owned more motorcycles  on at least a 2-1 basis compared to you or most other members on this forum . i also raced european and the odd jappo for about 12-15 years i maintained, prepared , and did all the spanner work my self - mainly ducati bevel drives and laverda triples , raced formula european and BEARS class , so im no dumb klutz that you are trying to make out that i am ok !! Now getting back to these oil seals , i have here in my hand a k series bmw rear main seal from motor works and a rear main seal from moto-bins  the seal from bins is clearly marked " prior to installation soak in oil for 2 hrs " and the other one from motorworks says nothing just in a plastic zip lock bag with a part number on it . i actually rang motor works and asked instructions for installing it and was told remove the plastic ring ,to oil it up and install it into the crankcase flush with the case and was also transferred to their workshop and was told the same" thats all we do no problems gov " and as far as using a ball peen hammer how else do you install them lightly and gently tap the outer edge with the hammer till it is semi installed and then gently tap on the outer edge till it is flush with the crankcase , then install the clutch basket/ housing gently into the seal and twist and push till it locates on the splines job done , the guys at motor works also said the reason the seal is fitted with the white plastic ring is to protect the seal lip from damage during transit from factory to retailer and when being stored in a parts bin , so who is right and who is wrong ??? i joined this forum on the recommendation of a guy i met [ forum member ] and is now a friend ,to broaden my abilities to work on  a fuel injection motorcycle that i have a passion for , previously all my bikes have been carburettors , , i have come to the conclusion that if you reply to a post and you go with the flow and say how nice your bike looks , and " oh job well done "  etc etc then all is good and kosher BUT if anybody says something derogatory about  it because they have a difference of opinion they {like in my case ] are shit canned for their input " why is it so " try and start a bike with only the positive + lead connected to the battery and the negative - lead disconnected and what happens she no start you need both leads attached  i've never abused anybody on this forum or used profanities  so why am i being targeted and threatened with banishment from the forum period by an unnamed  seven star general for saying something the rest of you think your version is the right one . i came here to learn more about fuel injection and bmw's wiring problems  i dont need to know how to work on bikes  or how to route a clutch cable , or how to change the engine oil i already know this  i have a very good friend who is a BMW master technician and runs a very busy shop and he did warn me about the antics of forums on bmw's, sadly his words of wisdom are coming true , so i will leave it at that. and if you TIV and INGE care to go to moto-bins site and see for yourself the instructions for the rear main seal, first hand , i will sit back and re evaluate my feelings and options to staying on the forum i've met quite a few great people here and it will be a shame to say good-bye  so adios amigos

    

49Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:51 am

RicK G

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Gees guys an over reaction to an over reaction to a post that was a bit of a mess because it didn't copy paste well. Take a deep breath have a joint or a beer and relax and put it behind you. It isn't worth the oxygen or photons used.


__________________________________________________
If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

50Back to top Go down    Re: Main seal (probably) weeping on Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:43 am

gabriel


Silver member
Silver member
@RicK G wrote:Gees guys an over reaction to an over reaction to a post that was a bit of a mess because it didn't copy paste well. Take a deep breath have a joint or a beer and relax and put it behind you. It isn't worth the oxygen or photons used.



I agree.
I'm sorry if I am to blame for this situation.
Sometimes we become passionate about a topic and let emotions take over.
I stand by my posts.
Who knows, maybe Motorworks advice/information needs to be updated.
After all, this forum is about learning and respecting people's opinions.
Woodcutter, I think people took offence to your comment about my post been a joke.
The instructions to soak in oil for two hours, was that written by them or the oil seal manufacturers?
I know who's word I believe....and it's not Motorworks...
I suggest people have a read of the website I mentioned. How wrong can companies like Victorreinz and KSF be?
anyway, please pass the joint....

Ta

    

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