BMW K bikes (Bricks)

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Snod Blatter

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Hi all,

My beloved (err..) K was recently stolen and recovered, thankfully the mirror pods are still intact so it's worth repairing (have you seen the price!?) but the thief has chopped off and thrown away the ignition switch. After discovering that ignition switches don't really exist for sale any more I have bought a car style remote blipper thing, officially an alarm but I reckon I can wire it up using the "unlock" output of the magic box to work a relay to turn the ignition on. For posterity, here is the wiring diagram out of the manual for it (I reckon I'll be using the DC setup, it matches the ignition lock setup more closely):



I'm guessing the orange unlock wire sends power "around" the ignition switch which would still be off, so hopefully I can use it to power the (diode protected!) relay coil, and have the relay connect the red and green wires that used to go to the switch, thusly:



However, to have full functionality do I also need to power the grey wire? This is how the thieves wired it up, they tied red, green and grey together but if I tie red and green together everything seems to work. Am I missing something? What do the other pair of wires actually do? Linky to the interactive wiring diagram for people smarter than me!

Basically, want to wire up simple ignition switch, what wires do I need to bridge?

Thanks babes


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1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

robmack

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The manual scan is grainy and illegible so that impedes me in helping you. I think I get the following wire functions:

Red Positive power (i.e. Constant 12V power)
Orange positive output (i.e. switched 12V power)
Pink XXX line up
Gray XXX line down
Blue Start switch line
Yellow Turn signals
Black Power supply negative

Can you help improve this table by filling in the missing information?

Your goal is to ensure that your RFID keyless auto thingy is able to join Red to Green and Gray/Blue to Gray. The Gray wire powers the parking light circuit. The Green wire powers the other circuits.

Refer to the following discussions on Triumph forum to get an idea on how to install a RFID keyless ignition:

http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/162499-rfid-keyless-ignition.html
http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/164192-keyless-ignition-part-deux.html
http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/344937-keyless-ignition-part-trois-et-demi.html
http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/793753-keyless-ignition-version-v-all-solid-state.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqT4RilWE6c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e02XThTDroM


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Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
    

Snod Blatter

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I am not at all fussed by the parking lights, I've been reading up and apparently they should be on all the time but mine never were. But I can turn them on with the right side handlebar switch just fine anyway? Is this for countries where having the parking lights on is mandatory?

The pink and grey wires are for "flameout", I think this is akin to hitting the kill switch on a normal bike where you short the CDI to ground. Or it might not be. The manual is not at all clear on what "flameout" means.

I'm not bothered about the flameout, remote start or unlocking the doors to my motorcycle so it can be simplified and reworked a bit. I'm going to hook the unit up to a battery and a bulb and see if the orange unlock wire does indeed put out a constant 12v, here's hoping it does..


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

robmack

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Well, flameout is usually what happens to military jet engines. Hardly a descriptive term for a motorcycle. Cheap ass manufacturers who don't want to spend a buck to get a real technical writer to compose the manual, so they get thier brother-in-law to do it for nothing. This is the result.

The Gray wire also goes to the BMU on the Gray/White wire via Fuse #2 so you'll have to figure out an alternative to that connection if you abandon the Gray wire.

If you can get the unit to power a DPDT horn relay with 30A DC rated contacts via the unit's Blue wire, that should be OK. I think the Blue wire comes on with power to the Orange wire and cuts out if the alarm activates (and remains inactive as long as the alarm is activated). You'll have to ensure that the current draw on the relay's coil doesn't exceed the current sourcing capability of the unit. How you figure that out, I'm not sure (trial and error??).

All this advice is pure guess-work on my part and I may be completely out to lunch on my advice.


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Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
    

Snod Blatter

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Sure enough, if I disable the alarm and double tap the remote start button on the fob then a relay clicks inside the unit and 12v is supplied. Which is actually kind of cool.

I doubt a relay coil will overload it, the amazingly wussy wiring is likely the weak point here. I was going to use a diode protected automotive relay like this one, probably in a base and hide it in the electrical gubbins box under the tank. But I take it by DPDT you mean it activated two switches inside the relay? I could always double up on relays too, I guess.

I see that the grey wire goes to the BMU, but there seems to be no downside to not connecting it. If unconnected does this mean that the BMU is not functional? Is that a problem? And what if I just connect the grey wire to the same spade connector as the green wire?

Am I right that the blue/grey wire is just a ground? It seems to end up that way right after the "additional instruments" connector. Did BMW simply split these circuits to avoid too much load on a single connector in the ignition switch? I just seem to end up with more questions..!


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

robmack

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Snod Blatter wrote:But I take it by DPDT you mean it activated two switches inside the relay? I could always double up on relays too, I guess.
Yes, correct. Double pole double throw, means 2 separate circuits activated by one coil.

Snod Blatter wrote:I see that the grey wire goes to the BMU, but there seems to be no downside to not connecting it. If unconnected does this mean that the BMU is not functional? Is that a problem? And what if I just connect the grey wire to the same spade connector as the green wire?
I can't tell if the Gray/White is a power input or a monitored input. It's labelled 58E on the schematic. The other monitored inputs are also in the fifties, so maybe it's the latter rather than the former. The way it is connected however doesn't make it obvious as to whether it is monitoring any lamp. I'd leave it disconnected for the moment and see what happens.

Snod Blatter wrote:Am I right that the blue/grey wire is just a ground? It seems to end up that way right after the "additional instruments" connector. Did BMW simply split these circuits to avoid too much load on a single connector in the ignition switch? I just seem to end up with more questions..!
The Blue/Grey is not a ground; it's a power lead. It is sourced from the output of the load shed relay through the right hand light switch (if provided). It gets switched in/out with the light switch. That means it is used to control circuits that should come on / turn off with the headlights, like the parking light. In the USA/Canada markets, the right hand switch cluster doesn't have a light switch so the lights come on / turn off with the ignition key.


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Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
    

Snod Blatter

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robmack wrote:The Blue/Grey is not a ground; it's a power lead. It is sourced from the output of the load shed relay through the right hand light switch (if provided). It gets switched in/out with the light switch. That means it is used to control circuits that should come on / turn off with the headlights, like the parking light. In the USA/Canada markets, the right hand switch cluster doesn't have a light switch so the lights come on / turn off with the ignition key.
Ahh ok, turns out that with just red and green connected there is no tail light no matter if I turn the lights on or not. I couldn't give a stuff about the front parking light, but the tail light is a different matter entirely..

Now debating one of these, anyone know if 30A would be enough? There are more powerful versions but they're not so easy to find. Or, as above, I can just double up on the relays. Since the magic Chinese box appears to use a proper relay itself I guess it's not so important to have the diode on the relay coil, so I can likely use whatever I fancy.


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

Dai

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30A is more than enough. The standard alternator pokes out 32/33A (if you're lucky) but most of what is used does not go through the ignition switch. The grey/white wire (pilot light) is not monitored, despite going to the BMU. Pull the bulb out and the BMU will ignore you.

If you do decide to go back to a keyed ignition switch, you're right in that the BMW switching style is not available off the shelf. Buy an aftermarket switch and use the red/black wires for the ignition circuit. Ignore the black/white and green wires (for some reason all the third-party bods use Honda colours and Honda switching, unless stated for a specific bike). Connect the slate/blue to the slate wire; as Rob says, the lights will come on with the ignition but it won't give the battery a hard time as the load shed relay will turn them off again. I think BobT has done this with complete success.


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'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

robmack

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Snod Blatter wrote:Ahh ok, turns out that with just red and green connected there is no tail light no matter if I turn the lights on or not. I couldn't give a stuff about the front parking light, but the tail light is a different matter entirely.

I think that Grey/White is a power source, supplying current via Pin 58E to the tail light connected to Pin 58A on the BMU. If you hook the Grey to Grey/Blue at the ignition switch, things will work again.

Snod Blatter wrote:Now debating one of these, anyone know if 30A would be enough? There are more powerful versions but they're not so easy to find. Or, as above, I can just double up on the relays. Since the magic Chinese box appears to use a proper relay itself I guess it's not so important to have the diode on the relay coil, so I can likely use whatever I fancy.
That relay is large enough to handle the current drawn through the ignition circuit.

If you decide NOT to permanently wire the Grey to Grey/Blue together, then use this relay. wire Red to Green through one set of contacts, and Grey/Blue to Grey on the other set.

If you decide to permanently wire the Grey to Grey/Blue, then you won't need a DPDT relay, a SPDT should do the trick.[/quote]


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Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
    

Snod Blatter

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Thanks both for your help, I have decided to go big and have bought a JQX 38F which is 3PDT (so things should be simple to plug together) and is rated for 40A, looking around it's only the Chinese who are (over?)rating their relays this high while most reputable manufacturers seem to be topping out at 15A so I figured the extra headroom might be handy. And it's only a couple of pounds for the peace of mind.

Now I just have to wait for it to turn up bounce


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

Dai

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Uhhhh - you're gonna hate me for this. I stopped buying relays from China because I was getting a 60-70% failure rate.


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

Snod Blatter

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Bugger off Dai Sad

I'll see how it goes, if it fails I'll fit the normal automotive SPDT type.. Of course there will also be a Chinese relay in the magic blipper box too. Every ride will be a gamble, woo.


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

robmack

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You should be OK at 40 Chinese amps (or about 20 Rest-of-the-world amps Smile ). No where near that amount of current is being switched by the ignition circuit.

FYI, Chinese manufacturers tend to heavily overrate their electronic components. You have to understand "how" they came to publish a 40A rating on the contacts. Is that the current at 240 Volts AC? Or is it at 24 Volts DC? Big difference. Relay contacts can switch much bigger loads under AC excitation. It's large DC loads that burns contacts unless they are designed to handle it.


__________________________________________________
Robert
1987 K75 @k75retro.blogspot.ca
2011 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
    

Dai

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Snod Blatter wrote:Bugger off Dai Sad
Seriously though, that 60-70% failure rate was out-of-the-box, not after being used. Most of them had a short between pin 85 and pin 30. I'm really beginning to suspect that a lot of the cheap stuff from China has failed its QA test and has been passed out of the back door.


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

Snod Blatter

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Ah ok, I'll check it when it arrives then. Though just how do they manage a short between 85 and 30??

I have also just been given a SPDT Volkswagen relay that says Made In Spain, rated for 40A with a resistor across the coil which is nice. The contacts are huge and copper, it really means business. Makes the contacts on the Chinese one look very wimpy indeed..


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

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