hmm.. yes. I believe the technical term for that would be... "bad".

of course if your alternator's cranking out 240v I think you might have other problems.

Ya know, after looking over the entire post of your problem, I don't think we'll find the same solution. Yours certainly looks like an excessive power draw in the fuel pump circuit. Mine relates to the injectors not operating (I think). I've got some LED test light stuff I want to do first (and that Bert has requested I complete before plugging in the new computer).

well, there certainly was an excessive draw on the circuit - when the fuel pump seized.
but you mean now? what do you have in mind?

but upon a closer reading of your posts I think you're right.
my fuel pump isn't pumping (even tho it is apparently getting voltage) whereas yours is I believe.

it sure seems like there's a bloody gremlin in there tho, so perhaps we share that problem.

club_c wrote:Yes, I will eventually hook up the computer. However it is a 'loaner' from this site's administrator, and I want to ensure I'm not sending 240v into it or anything else that would melt it down and cause the site administrator to fly to my house and set it on fire.

Well it is a bit drastic but it would get our resident GURU to look at the problem from another perspective

I just look at the electrical schematic again. If your fuel pump is turning when pushing the starter button, the red/green wire feeding the injectors should get + 12volts. The fuel pump relay has a double contact, one that feed the fuel pump and the other that feed the injectors and the throttle switch.
If the fuel pump is turning, and you don't get the + 12v at the fuel injector plug, something was not plugged correctly on the loom or the FI relay has a problem. or ....... Did you tell me that you had a small fire on the bike? If yes, you may have a broken wire.

According to the electrical schematic, the wires feeding the injectors and the throttle switch are not part of the main loom. you should find a connector with 5 wires:
green/red feeding the positive to the injectors, the throttle switch, the air flow meter and pin #9 of the FI computer plug
Black/yellow feeding pin #4 of the FI computer plug
Violet/green for the temperature sensor
Violet/green for the vacuum switch (nothing plugged on your bike as you should not have the vacuum switch)
Yellow/red going to pin #1 of the FI computer plug.

Find this plug and try to measure the power at the plug.

Bert

Hi Bert,

That small fire was nothing, though almost something!! No damage to anything except my heart. When the fuel pump is turning (starter engaged) I DO have 12v at the injector plug, on BOTH sides.

I do have the vacuum switch.

I understand where you're starting to go here, diagnostically. I'll check for power at that plug. Would I expect to find that plug under the fuel tank?

You may remember from Skype that I thought I'd pinched a Hall Sensor wire when reinstalling the timing chain cover. Upon closer inspection I found that was the oil pressure sender wire, and it is ok.

[quote="club_c" I DO have 12v at the injector plug, on BOTH sides. [/quote]

If the FI computer is unplugged, you will get a + 12v on the green/red wire, but you cannot get the ground on the yellow/green.
The 4 yellow/green wires are going straight to the EFI plug. if you find it grounded (with the FI computer and the injectors unplugged), it MUST come from the wiring (maybe the insulation of one wire gone and the exposed wire touching the frame or something like this).
Can you picture this on the previous schematic? By doing this troubleshooting, you should be able to understand what and why you are doing it.
If something that I say is not clear, ask for clarification. This is your and everybody's opportunity to learn the system and learn to follow an electrical schematic.

On another note, the French people traveling with the sidecar broke down again. I spent an hour on the phone to try locating the parts for their differential. The dealer in Montreal has the bearing in stock and could get the shaft seal by the beginning of the week. They are lucky as the dealer will give them a special on the big bearing: $84 and the seal is only $19.

Anybody from this forum lives close to Vermillon, Ontario?

Bert

Yes I too got that email from them. Hard miles on the K are starting to add up...

Further update. I have done the following checks:

12v at the red/grn when cranking, all injectors unplugged, FI unplugged
0v at the yel/grn when cranking, all injectors unplugged, FI unplugged
12v at the red/grn when cranking, 3 injectors plugged in, FI plugged in
12v at the yel/grn when cranking, 3 injectors plugged in, FI plugged in

Not sure if that is a negative 12v at the yel/grn.

Using LED test light, PULSING 12v at each injector plug.

Pulled the fuel rail with the injectors attached, gave 12v from the battery directly to one injector, cranked the motor, no fuel spray.

To me this means the injector circuit is working and feeding the injectors, the only thing is they are not opening. So what would cause ALL the injectors to not open? They were sitting in a box attached to the fuel rail while I did my resto. They worked before I pulled them out.

I'm going to confirm fuel pressure, though there is lots of fuel flow.

Ideas?

There should be continuous 12V on the injectors. The injection pulses are arranged by the ECU, which switches the ground connection of the injectors. Why don't you pull the rail with the injectors, leave them connected and start the bike - see what they do when connected as normal? The injectors have their own filters as well. Has the bike been run without the normal fuel filters in the tank?

First did you leave all but one of the injectors connected when you did the LED test, if all were disconnected as a result of that you would not be able to verify there was enough current to open them only that there was enough current to light the LED. So make sure the injectors were connected, if the light was pulsing in that condition there should be enough current as well as voltage to open the injectors to allow fuel to flow.

Check the injection pressure it to see if it is correct. With pulsing on the injectors and correct pressure no flow is due to plugged injectors.
Regards,
K-BIKE

I'm a little confused about the continuous 12v. The I get 12v when the starter is engaged and the fuel pump pumping. I don't have 12v on the positive side otherwise. Is this right?

I have pulled the fuel rail with the injectors attached and cranked the motor, no fuel spray from the injectors.

I did have all the injectors disconnected when I did the LED test. I will retest with only one disconnected at a time. This test with the LED in one injector plug and the rest plugged into the injectors is complete - no change, still lights up in a pulsing way as the engine is cranked over. I'm hoping to check fuel pressure tomorrow if all goes according to plan (doubtful).

Thanks for the observations/advice so far. I think I'm close now.

If the injectors are blocked, is there a way to clean them without taking them to a pro?

Hi,
You have made the definitive test with the LED that shows you have volts and current. Pressure test is next and unless you have very low pressure you have proved the injectors are blocked. Without the cleaning equipment it is difficult to see how you could clean them as well as they do with an ultrasonic cleaner however if you look up DIY fuel injector cleaning on the net you can see a bunch of guys doing more or less dangerous things. The one that amazes me is the guy with the ample bare midriff who sparks the wire to the injectors on a battery whilst spraying cleaner into an open tray in front of his stomach.
Regards,
K-BIKE

club_c wrote:I'm a little confused about the continuous 12v. The I get 12v when the starter is engaged and the fuel pump pumping. I don't have 12v on the positive side otherwise. Is this right?

The injectors only get 12V when the FI relay is closed which only happens when you press the starter which also fires the fuel pump so all is correct.
If you have a pulsing led on the other side when cranking the engine then that indicates the FI controller is doing the right thing.

Getting the injectors cleaned here costs around $30 per injector which is about the same price as the s/h eBay ex Ford ones.
Presumably if they are done properly it will be done on a special bench that also allows checking of the spray pattern and I believe the little filters are changed as well as supplying new o-rings.

UPDATE: Today I tested fuel pressure. Seems like my gauge doesnt go near 36 psi, but the pressure did wrap the needle to 25+ psi, so I think at least I can say I have decent pressure, if not full pressure. I pulled the pump out of the tank to have a look anyways, it was ok, but what a lot of debris in the fuel well. I used a turkey baster to suck out the muck, 1/2 a cup of water at the bottom and al kinds of little black chunks. I guess that must have been from a previous fuel pump mount. This mount was in good shape. Still no start. Pulled the injectors and took them to the shop and told the tech the story. He says it's highly likely the bad gas/varnish/water in the tank when I got the bike has sealed up the injectors since they were pulled off which allowed them to dry out. He will report back soon, as will I. (fingers crossed).

I don't think that 25psi is enough. this represents 10/35 drop in pressure and as a first estimate 30% drop in fuel/air mixture ratio.

If I was looking at the fuel system that is as dirty as that, I would be inclined to rip it all out and replace all old hoses, filters and flush the fuel rail and the regulator so that is all absolutely clean.

If any small particles are present it a sure thing that the injectors will clog up again.

25 psi was as high as my gauge went, and it hit it hard right away, so I expect it was really much higher. Rail and hoses cleaned/replaced. How would I clean the regulator? I may change out the filter too. I think it's the filter's job to stop all that crap from getting to the injectors. But gooey gas would go through the filter and that could easily plug everything up downstream if allowed to dry out.

Someone advised that back flushing the regulator with air did the trick for them. These things are sealed so there is no way to repair them.

However, before you go through all the trouble of taking it out, it may be prudent to simply test the pressure properly. If it holds at 36psi, I would be satisfied. In principle you can connect the regulator directly to the pump output to do this. Also, the regulator is downstream from the injectors, so if anything is liberated there, it should be filtered out by the in-tank filter.

Remember that this engine ran pretty well before I took the bike apart in February. I looked at both my fuel pressure gauges and both are well below the 36 psi reading I'd need. The injectors are out for servicing now anyhow, so I can't do anything with testing pressure before they are reinstalled.

I guess if you are backflushing with air, you best set the pressure on the compressor to something about 35 psi. I'm thinking the 110 psi my compressor can generate could cause some issues with the regulator...

It would be interesting to see the result after the cleaning.
I believe that an injector will not work if you try to feed it with water. Water is not a fluid as gas! You told us that you pull 1/2 cup of water from the tank and this could be the real problem.

Water in the fuel tank is the result of a bad design of the fuel tank cap. When its raining, the water seats around it. When you open the cap to refill, the water is going directly to the tank.

Bert, I hear you, but what about the drain hole in the lid recess? I had to clean the line out when I got my bike, but have never had water in fuel problems.

UPDATE: had the injectors cleaned, said they had a really bad spray pattern. Plugged them back in, put in a new fuel filter, still no spray. Dang it. I tried to trigger the injectors with direct 12v, you can hear a little click but no action. I remember the tech that serviced the injectors saying he had to test each one manually, couldn't trigger via a 'microswitch', whatever that meant. I tried to call him back today but he's off until Monday.

I still haven't plugged in the extra FI computer. Bert do you think it's time? I'm really hitting a wall here now.

First, if you have not already changed the fuel filter after you took the half cup of water out change it again as water in the filter will stop it passing fuel through.

Then put the LED back across one injector connector with the others still connected. Verify the bike is all set to run, side stand up (if switch fitted), kill switch on, gear in neutral, ignition on and press start button. Does the LED flash? if not then you will need to diagnose what has changed to stop it flashing since the last time you got it to flash. If it flashes replace the LED with a 10 watt or so bulb, does that light up if it does it shows there is enough current to fire the injectors as well. Then disconnect the hose from the fuel rail is it full of fuel and under pressure? If it is then is fuel coming out the injectors now? With clean injectors, fuel pressure and power on the injectors provided they are electrically working they must let fuel spray out.
Regards,
K-BIKE

thanks K-bike. I did the testing quickly today, as I was in between my nightshifts and only had a small window of time before heading to work. And I did the test on the sidestand (down). I can't remember. Will the bike start in neutral with the sidestand down?

I will try the different test light idea after re-confirming the LED test light.

Filter was changed after the water and debris was removed.

I don't understand why the injectors wont open and spray with 12v directly applied. I do have pressure on the rail, but my gauge doesn't go high enuf to read 36 psi.

From personal experience with my K which has the side stand switch the answer is no way will it start.

Does fuel squirt out if you take the hose off? with ++ 25psi it certainly should do and it will prove that the rail has fuel in it for sure.

I also cannot see how the injectors will not open and spray fuel with 12 volts on them as long as there is fuel in them not residual water flushed down by the fuel when you pressurised the system. As the injectors are at the bottom water in the fuel will gravitate down into them. Do you have a multimeter? If so a quick check on the resistance of the injectors will verify the mechanic has not blown them (which if he put 24 volts truck voltage on them he certainly would blow them) they should be around 15 ohms or so
Regards,
K-BIKE

I agree this seems to be a bit of a mystery. If I've got fuel pressure and power to the injectors, why aren't they opening now that they are confirmed clean. Hopefully on Saturday I can spend some time making sure I haven't cut a corner somewhere, though I do know that my wife has arranged an afternoon ride with some friends on the R1150RT so it may have to be Sunday.

Is there a way to temp disable the sidestand switch to eliminate it as a contributing factor?

Just double check that you have a sidestand switch and it will either be open or closed so if it is just a normal push switch presumably it has a connector somewhere that can be measured with a meter.

Alternatively you can find some meter probes with really fine tips that will allow you to pierce the wiring.

I am totally puzzled by your problem.

Here is what you should do:

Remove the rail and the injectors from the bike.
unplug the electrical from the injectors
re-attach the fuel pressure hose to the ramp.
When pushing the starter button, energize one injector with a direct power from the battery.
The injector should spray.
If it does, repeat the same operation on the 3 other injectors.
This test will help you to find if the problem is fuel supply, injectors problem or an electrical problem.
Unless you grew a third hand, 2 people may be required for this test. It's not easy to hold the injector ramp, power the injector and push the starter button as the same time.

Bert

Further don't worry about a side stand switch, your year of bike came without.

Was wondering about that. I was looking at it this morning for a moment when I got home, and didn't see it either

UPDATE: no joy. Bert, took your advice, tried powering up the injectors manually, no change. I confirmed power at the injector plug with the LED test light (forgot to test with a heavier light, will do so tomorrow), confirmed 10.8v at the plug, which is a little soft, I know (which should indicate the heavier test light should work) and fuel pressure. Each injector reads 16 ohms resistance.

The only thing I haven't checked is the Hall sensors, but since I've got spark and a flashing LED at the injector plug I feel it must be operating. Any thoughts?

I'm going to talk to the injector tech that cleaned the injectors on Monday, see what else he can say, may have them independently checked. Seems to me all is well up to the injectors themselves, that they are not opening up when given power.

I think the bike is almost ready to go other than that, almost all other areas of the resto are complete.

Really dumb question but have you got fuel flow through the fuel rail or pressure at both ends?

Resistance value is is good, are you sure you have pressure at the rail?
Regards,
K-BIKE

K-BIKE wrote:Resistance value is is good, are you sure you have pressure at the rail?

phil_mars wrote:Really dumb question but have you got fuel flow through the fuel rail or pressure at both ends?

It maybe time to invest into a gauge and check the fuel pressure at the rail. I am wondering if the 2 hoses are not reversed at the gas tank.

The other problem I have heard of is sub-standard hose where the two layers of hose would separate and balloon out internally causing a blockage but only when under pressure. Excellent thought about reversed pipes.
Regards,
K-BIKE

Checked the 2 fuel hoses, thought they looked right but reversed anyhow, no change except a howl from the fp regulator. Changed them back.
Bert: I checked the grn/red lead under the tank as you had suggested, power on both sides of the plug.
I also confirmed the power at the injector plugs have enough voltage to power a standard test light.

I'm off to the tech with injectors in hand again...

UPDATE: A possible big break now. The original tech shop retested the injectors (different operator) and confirmed they will not open for them either. Seems the needles are stuck shut. I waved goodbye with my injectors in hand and headed to a specialty injectors only shop a 1/2 hour away. I told the new tech my story, he just smirked, said come back tomorrow and pick up your working injectors. Says he hasn't had a set yet that couldn't be cleared. So we shall see... stay tuned....

Same Bat time, same Bat channel ......

So did they become re-blocked or were they not tested properly in the first place?

Poor testing in the first instance. Never should have told me they were 'done'. The first tech got them blocked, and returned them blocked.

Same K time, same K channel...

Just imagine if you had not taken them back and assumed it had to be something else

So even this specialty shop cannot free up the injectors, they are toast. So, does anyone have an opinion on the refurbed Ford injectors? The price is right at $95 including shipping.

Here are some reconditioned OEM (BMW K100)
No wonder that we couldn't find anything wrong with the signal from the FI computer to the injectors.
You are lucky that the overload on the FI computer didn't burn it. It seems to be OK as you told us that the LED is still flashing.

Bert

Ok, here I go, I'll order some of those Ford ones...

Hi there, almost 2 years ago I bought the Standard Motor FJ27 injectors from rockauto, around 45USD each, the bike runs great.
Best regards
JAP

club_c wrote:Ok, here I go, I'll order some of those Ford ones...

3 things to check:
a. obvious size, ie make sure they fit,
b. flow rate at pressure. chances are that there will be about 10% difference, not that it matters, but you may get a richer mixture, slightly higher fuel consumption and more GO!
c. coil resistance (4 ohms?, CF is that correct?)

Ned, thanks for your reply but each injector has a 16 Ohms coil.
Because of the Ohms law formula, the reading should be as follow:
1 injector 16Ω
2 injectors 8Ω
3 injectors 5.33Ω
4 injectors 4Ω

For everybody's information:
Have a look at this page to get a grasp on the Ohms law

The Ohm law is the very basic of electronic and electricity. Please don't be afraid to ask questions about it if you don't understand. Everybody has its own area of strength and not everybody can interpret a formula. You may have strength in mechanical area but not with something abstract like numbers. Nobody knows everything. If we can help you with an oil pump rebuild, we can certainly help you to understand basic electricity.
Thanks to Ned to give me the opportunity to remind you the Ohm's law

Bert

Thanks Burt.

My fault. I was thinking of each individual injector separately not all 4 in the circuit. I just couldn't remember what the K100 specs were.

No problem Ned.

This was another opportunity to educate people. This is why we exist.

Still waiting on the arrival of the refurbed Ford injectors, looked at his auction page, seems like he knows what he's talking about. So far two shops have looked at my injectors and worked on them without success. First job I paid for under the table and thought that $100 was gone, but talked to him nice and he refunded all the cash. Second place didn't even charge me. So far I'm not out any cash except to buy the other injectors. And several days of my life trying to troubleshoot that I'll never get back...

Bert, 7 pages, 99 replies, 1150+ views. What's the forum record?