92KK K100LT 193214 wrote:Ed,

Rick Gs step is good but....those 4 screws can be a tight fit.. Cant get them out on the LT. WD40 first.

removed the RT fuel surround last weekend with no grief .

ordered a new fuel filter already , might be here for the weekend .
purchased a new battery today , the existing one has not given any signs of problem , but best to replace whilst we are at it.

due to family commitments (quality family time needed) through the weeknights, I'll be back into the K scene on the weekend.
Keith be sure you allow the same, hope it is progressing well for you all.
I'd like to throw a big thanks to a forum guest for the loan of their 1100LT, to provide t'port to work . I'm lost without my K.
just as a forward  mention , I have been advised this same bike with be up for sale very soon , particulars will be posted when the time comes.

I'm looking forward to following through with a few of the suggestions as the weekend arrives.

Ed,

Hope you get it all sorted soon. Frustrating times just now. Glad you got the fuel surround off too. My fuel filter on the LT was changed in 2010 just after I got it........wondering now how it was done without taking it off but on the other hand the guy I got to do it is very clever. I have done all subsequent stuff myself.

the weekend is here again , so back into , 
some of the forum boys have offered to put their head in the door for a look - see, 
gave the new battery a full charge last night in readiness for todays  onslaught.
thoughts for today , 
remove fuel filter from outward hose, check for pressure , see what it is delivering.
Steve is bringing a new filter with him , 
Keith is bringing some vital electrical knowledge of which I lack, ie , multi meter know how , should be able to test some of those points of mention from Charlie.
I'll see if the cleanup on connectors comes up to standard or may require some more.
coffees are on the house , sorry no scones. Tracey is busy.

Well what an afternoon , 
we plucked , pilliged and dug deep into the nethers of K tanks.
the sequence of events, 
Steve turned up with a spare fuel filter ( mine is still in the mail and will be re routed to Steve when I can) , thanks mate.
we fitted that whilst waiting for Keith, 
popped the freshly charged battery in for some good cranking power, it delivered well. ( Yuasa brand )
gave it a kick , no positive response achieved.
Keith arrived soon after, so we ran through some symptoms and possible troubleshooting .
just out of interest I blew on the inward side of the previous filter , some residue fuel came out under pressure , after the first blow it became difficult to blow through.

a re check of connectors was carried out, nothing further to report, we exchanged FIU's between the RT and LT , no change.

Keith , with the assistance from Steve and I, then started on testing voltages.

these are not exact measurements , just what I remember.
battery was running at around 12.66v
FI #4   running at around 11.95 under crank load.

 
the pump is not pumping under cranking power, no noticeable voltage to be read whilst under load.
BUT ,  reads full voltage upon release of the starter button,
outward flow pipe of the filter ( new one ) was disconnected and checked for pressure , it matched the response given by the meter.
press the starter button , and no fuel pressure , release the starter button and fuel pressure is active.

So in essence , 
the physical test on the pump ( ie hand in tank checking the activity) confirms what the meter is reading.
 the pump is working ,but not when it is supposed to. it is activating on release of the starter button , Why is this so?
earthing problems ? relays ? rider breathing too much fumes with cap open ?

time for afternoon tea , Tracey appearing with freshly home baked carrot and walnut bread, Hmmmm, Niiice, 
come on guys , I didn't see anything about baking in the manual.......  a break very much appreciated by all.
back to our investigations , we pulled the FI relay from the RT , and tried it in the LT.
We noticed the relay on the RT has 5 pins , whilst the relay on the LT has just 4 pins , is this right?
any way no difference , so we put them back where they came from.

the afternoon was getting away on us , so just out of curiosity, we reassembled the mechanicals for the RT, which has been sitting since 09'.
a bit of dodgy makeshift starter button rewiring , and the old girl was just wanting to kick over , but didn't.
a bit more K chatter and that is where we left the day.

are there any thoughts or speculations which we should follow up tomorrow, 
Sorry Rossko , Tracey said she only bakes scones when we go camping.

no resolve as yet , but a very educational and enjoyable afternoon had by all.

I started reading and thought it would have made a fun day out.
Glad I didn't come now.
Only bakes scones while camping! Get a new one. Trade her in.
If I ever make it to your place I am bringing my tent.
Hey Mrs groverK. I am camping. Scones. Now.
unless she is busy then that is ok.

next time Rossko ,
I would have baked them myself you know  
 it must have been good , the dog didn't even get a crumb.

a BIG thanks to Steve and Keith for their valued support.. and assistance, well done guys. 
Rick , we followed Berts jet-tronic flow chart,and we are investigating relays at this stage.

I keep thinking back to the problem I had on the LT early last year. The help I got in sorting it sort of led to the Irish Eccentrics.

All was a puzzle meaning I had to go at everything just like you have done and was solved when I swapped the ECU located up at the headstock under the fuel tank. It came out a lot easier than expected, it can be manoeuvred out backwards despite all the ABS etc etc wiring. This solved the problem. I never knew whether it was a connection or what but it solved it. If you have a spare bike there it might be worth a try. I only say might because my starter was not doing the business either, but the LT went sweet after the swap.

Ed I cant see a diagram in here that shows where the lsr is, on the ibmwr site it is written in as from right to left as horn relay, load shed relay, lowbeam relay and full left fuel relay, so will ferret around and see if I have another load shed relay, an ecu and a r/h switch block for the rt, so I can bring all with me, will have to await Emily's return tomorrow as she is with her nana at the Mo they went to the relay for life event at Cessnock tonight. She has sent me a text indicating she had her poster signed and appears to have had agreta time there. Perhaps after we visit Michelle in hospital we can drop by and see what can be done.

I suspect its easier to swap the ECU than the right hand switch unit. ......but you could just disconnect the rh switch connectors under the tank and connect in the new one just to check it. Just a thought. But of course if someone is busy baking simnel cake and gingerbread then it makes for an enjoyable day.

I have quite a few relays under the tank and took each out to check the connections etc just after I bought the RT. Three have same references and appear interchangeable. The odd ones are the starter and load shed relays which are bigger.

G'Day 92kk, the r/h switch block is for the rt Ed has as a spare. i think I have enough bits from my parts bike to make it a runner as well. The ignition ecu and the load shed relay are for Ed's lt, the blue one he rides every day. crossing fingers we have a win tomorrow.

Here tiz
I think yours is ABS Ed

But a 2V ABS, and not a 4V ABS....

Its an annoying process and I was sure glad when I had mine sorted out. It sounds like you have everything needed and also the patience/food supply to keep at it. Be very interested in the outcome.

back into it again this morning, I'll concentrate on the relay box first .
do a bit of swapping around , I'll post some pics of the relay boxes as well just to show what both bikes have inside, they are different configurations.
at some stage I'll pick up some extra fuel line ,the existing shorter lengths are proving time consuming when moving the tanks.

process of elimination will continue to the ECU I would expect.

I'm still enjoying the task at hand , with help from the forum. thanks all.
Rossko , I'm not sure whats for morning tea today? I'm sure it will be good.

Inge , what is the ( blue) relay in the bottom front left corner?

ABS main power....the smaller blue relay is for one of the warning lamps.

Thanks Inge, didn't want to be guessing, it can get you into trouble at times.

the LT relay box.




the RT box



the load shed relay , prior to a quick brush over with dry WET'n'DRY.
I'll give it a quick squirt with "de" before reinstalling and trying ignition.

question ....you don't have an earthing issue do you ed ?
might be a good idea to test the earth cable going to the pump    and to the battery from the frame connections ?

I also have a memory of a few folks on here having to put a lead from the starter motor fixing bolt to the earth as well ....( in case of some slightly high resistance to the brushes ....not immediately apparent when cranking ...but could affect the load shed relay )

you should have opened that relay mate .... to check - clean up the contacts

opened it

Thinking back through yesterdays testing, we had voltage at the injectors after the button was pressed not during, same with the pump on the meter, and same with the thumb test over the filter outlet tube, as soon as we took our thumb off the starter it pressurised and spurted but not whilst the button was pressed, is there anything else to look at apart from the lsr???Ed has changed the starter with no change in behaviour.

its pretty strange behaviour keith

just trying to think that through .....

almost like there is a big voltage drop during the starter motor run event

have we thought to measure the voltage through the ignition switch as start is happening ...or more likely at the ignition switch connectors to the loom ???

have you tried it with head lights on during starting ? to check that the lsr is operating correctly ...and that the voltage drop isn't happening through the ign switch

I would be changing fuse number 6 in any case ...we have heard stories of them being partially working

in fact as we tried to start albys tug ,,,the fuel pump fuse blew (after sitting for a couple of weeks )( I have a recollection of that bike having a different fuel pump in it ,,,and likely to draw more current than normal ...)
hope that helps

Righto Charlie Fuse 6 and check headlight goes out when starter pressed.
I might add an earth strap to the starter to be sure its ok.
Ed tried to return pm but it gets stuck in the outbox and wont send so here is reply::Yep have it in the bag, Do you want me to add the rest of the r/h equipement such as the throttle and brake? this wind is shoking

shoot keith im confused

sorry mate ....to use the words of some one far more intelligent "please explain ?"

thanks for the pic ed .....but cant tell from that pic .....but looks like the relay is welded shut .....unless you can see some airgap in between the contacts ....sorry mate cant tell, but do the headlights on check

sorry guys , been at some other work for a moment.
Yes , lights dip whilst pressing the starter button , thought to check it earlier.
cleaned up the earth under the tank , some crud there , but even on cleaning and spraying , no difference .
if you leave it for a while , first attempt is an almost kick over , any subsequent attempt is just a spin of the starter, simulating flooding .but is actually starving.
will have a look at fuses now.

getting tight on the race guys , four laps left, and tight as, holden and ford, ford and holden ,  gooooo.........

ohhhh welll.. thats another race over,  next year I suppose.

so I've checked the fuses , all good , nothing out of place there, still almost starting on residual fuel from the last attempt , then nothing after that.
also, Charlie I found easy movement and return on the relay plate, nothing appeared fused together.



Keith and I will tinker a bit more later,
 intend to replace the RH switch harness, to bypass the problem at post #25.
apparently the burnt wire (blue) is the headlight , which partially fused with the brown ? wire , not sure where that one goes.
if this has affected the headlight , would it also affect the LSR( which appears normal)

Keith I was talking with Steve this morning, about the relays in each box , 
it doesn't appear the RT LSR will fit as it is much larger in its casing size.

Not the result I 'd hoped for on the Mountain , but a damn tight finish , would have been bloody hot down there, good to be in the comfort of home watching it.

Charlie, One of the early changes to try to sort out the starting issue involved the rt starter going into the lt, too ensure we have a good contact to earth with either starter we can add a earth strap to the starter just incase the contact through the mount isnt enough in these difficult times. Once we work out which is the lsr in the 1984rt box we can swap it to the lt or pinch the 1987rt's lsr to do the same if they are all compatible. Ed did you find out which one in the rt el box is the lsr?
Ed 6 fords in the race 16 holdens odds were certainly stacked against them, who'd of picked that.

yeah that was a good plan keith

I feel there is a deeper issue with the power supply ....maybe just a corrosion thang

possibly a a test next would to be at those small pins at the outer of the number 6 fuse 
this might confirm that there is in fact voltage getting to that part.

there is some other connections which are convoluted in the diagrams ....like the loop terminal on the fi relay ..... which also gets power etc from the same circuitry  as the injectors  and more ...

do the injectors sound like they are working during start ?

I would now be thinking that there is an issue with either a shorted cable  crimped cable that is shared with something else during start ..

yeah those last few 20 or so laps were amazing huh !!!

(4th attempt at posting.... blommin internet )


oh ????   blue wire and brown wire .....ouch yes that might have a lot to do with it
brown is ALWAYS earth on our bikes .... blue hmmm is that the field winding to the alternator

Where in Maitland can you track down another relay Ed, do you know a trusted Auto electrician, having been to Brysans lately i doubt they keep them
Sorry Charlie we haven't checked voltage drop when cranking will addd that to the next encounter with the lt
No haven't replaced fuses, oops

dumb question ....but ...you have replaced all the fuses ...haven't you ?

OOPs + 1 
I did inspect them though , all seem clear , but will replace them right now and get back to you asap.
Hallinans  in High Street , where I bought the battery from, knows bikes as well. Bob is a good bloke to deal with .

fuses have now been replaced , still nothing . same as before.

I did remove the starter again this afternoon , and re-cleaned all connections .
Charlie , I'm still looking at post #25 as the next step, affected wiring , clear that up and continue with resolving further issues.

Charlie, no power to the injectors when cranking either, but a solid show of numbers when the button is released, 12.69v, same for the pump no fuel movement when cranking but fuel flow in abundance when button is released, so has to be earlier than those two's power supply, we'll check the voltage drop at ignition and start heading back towards the battery from there, and we will check the batt for load voltage as well.
When cranking power is removed from everything except fuel and ignition syst, these systems are powered by slave side of lsr so bike can start, pity the 2 rt's lsr's cant be used,, Hope thats right
Ed I'll see if I can find my little alligator clips that fit your probe type leads on the multi meter

K75cster wrote:, pity the 2 rt's lsr's cant be used,, Hope thats right




On the LT the LSR, FI, and horn relay is similar.

On the other hand I can't see why a bad LSR should causing starting problems.

The injectors, fuel pump ++ is powered from the FI relay, I would guess the problem
is found here.

1. A voltage drop in the circuit at the positive side of the FI relay coil during cranking.
2. The negative side of the FI relay coil is grounded in the ignition ECU...........

If it's no voltage drop on the relay coil during cranking, I would have tried to swap
the ignition ECU.

hmm that looks like a blue gray cable ed ....possibly the parkers power circuit ? (maybe I didn't notice it before )

im wondering if that is pointing to other "unseen issues " in that cable assembly off the the righthand controls ( ie the start button and the  emergency cutout ) ?

im with keith and suggest working backwards to find out where the loss is happening

the fi relay supply cable  needs to be confirmed  as well .

 
yes your right inge ...yet again ..about the start circuit .

(only 3 attempts to send this one ..crikey I hate mobile broadband ...sometimes )

yes inge its looking like the supply to the fi  to me as well  or as you suggest the ecu ...(under tank )

but you cleaned that up didn't you ed ? or am I thinking the afm connector ?

No dont believe we touched the ignition unit, but have one to take over to Ed's ready to go

swapped the horn relay to the LSR  , no change .
Charlie I did unbolt the ICU from under the steering head, this morning , looked clean but could do with a second look and pin test.

K75cster wrote:No dont believe we touched the ignition unit, but have one to take over to Ed's ready to go

Or swap the RT -- LT ignition ECU's........
If no voltage drop is found at the positive side of the relay coil.

If the injectors are working after the start button is pressed, but not while its pressed, suggests that circuit is working as in power to relay and the relay itself as well as the wiring.

What's missing is a signal to power up the injectors WHILE starter button is pressed, if that comes from a separate pin on ECU or by a signal to ECU from a separate wire from the right hand assembly maybe check there. Or it may be grounded through ECU. I don't know enough to know the exact way it works but I would now be looking here.

Easier to work back from ECU and rule that out. The pins on the ECU may need cleaning but be careful doing it.

Yesterday we attempted to fire up the RT after a 4 year standing .
it resulted in a no start ,so a swap of the ICU today did not follow.

Hi all .Thought I'd throw this in it might help if its a wiring fault. I had a problem with my k75c recently where it would cut out and fuel pump would not kick in after riding 20 kms or so, then run again after sitting for 10 to 20 minutes ,it did this on 3-4 test rides  after swapping all the relays and elec components off my k75s and believing it was solved. After it did it again at home in the shed when I went to start it I nearly did a utube of k75c vs komatsu excavator I was so frustrated with it:x  . As it turned out  doing it at home allowed me to test every thing following the system up to the plug under the tank where it was getting power  but no pump . Thought this was strange as I had swapped pumps . I pulled the pump out and bench tested  it was working . I then pulled out the  power lead that goes into the tank and tested the wires continuity to find that one of the pump wires was broken inside the insulation  , it had been making contact just enough to run until the heat under the tank would make the insulation expand enough for the ends of the broken wires to part contact causing the loss of  power to the pump. Years of bending I guess must have caused it .  Intermittent electrical problems like this can be very hard to find as you can only test to find them when they are occurring.  Learn how to use the continuity tester on your multimeter its invaluable. Good thing about all this was I cleaned up every connector and plug on the bike trying to solve it and the little bike is running sweeter than ever , might go round all the elects on the other bikes , seems to be definitely worth it . Great to see all of the advise flowing from everyone  this really is a top forum with lots of help out there .   Cheers AB
.

I can see merit in that thought Aus , worth a look see. 
hoping to get on top of this thing sooner than later , but the thoughts and advice are well received and appreciated , a top forum.

I have come to 2 conclusions after spending quite some tome staring at the circuits that you have either a faulty ICU or the hall sensor for 2-3 is not working at all.
Although both hall sensors feed into the ICU From what I can see the signal from the 2-3 sensor is the one that gives the signals the ICU uses to time the fuel injectors and that the earth that remains after the start button is released to let the pump run for 1.5 seconds is also letting the ICU send an earth to the injectors.
How the innards of that ICU work is close to a complete mystery but there is a guy in Sydney that fixes them
http://www.cdirepair.com.au/ and he can even get rid of or mod the revlimiter.

Rick G has pointed out some sound advice. It seems to be narrowed to a signal issue.

The thing is that if the connections are faulty in any way it can have the same effect. One faulty connection on a single pin on the ICU or anywhere else can do the same thing. Checking each individual wire will confirm the wire is in order but not the connections unless you are doing the test from one end of the line to the other after you have checked each individual wire. Its slow but when you are done with this one there is nothing you won't know about the K bike.

Inge Rickg 92kk thats the right track, I couldn't remember where I'd read about the non start issue of a pump that works after the starters finished, and seemed to believe the lsr carried the power to the icu and the fiu when button pressed, which is wrong, and we walked down lsr avenue on Saturday arvo for the fun of it. next time in we check the right stuff. Hope to be able to drop by after visiting at the hospital now we have daylight savings. Thankyou all now all you need do is stop me from straying again and all will be resolved

I'm just following him.....

Here is a thought.

I am a bit green at this but I see the fuel pump is not pumping when the starter button is pressed. Let me see if this is logical, hopefully someone will either say its worth looking at or makes no sense.

Load shed relay cuts off certain functions as it disconnects their earths [lights etc] while the starter button is pressed.

Am I right in thinking the ECU controls the fuel pump by controlling the earth side rather than the live side?

Presumably in this case the fuel pump etc is not wired or earthed through the circuits cut off by the load shed relay.

But what if the wiring was modified so it was getting its power supply from a different source that's cut off by the load shed relay while the starter button is pressed?

Just my thoughts.

it is possible Olaf, 
are there any suggestions of a starting point to trace earth wires ,do we start at the pump and work back. this would be my logic.
 Keith is going to examine the portal wiring schematics ,he said they are much better than the ones in the manual.

I am so glad this didn't occur on my recent rides. Klompys K pick up Hotline would certainly have received a call.