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1Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty gas leak around throttle body Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:35 pm

bgambrogi

bgambrogi
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Hi guys! New day, new problem.

My bike has been sitting for 6 months and just got running again. In the past I noticed a small amount of grime built up around my 4th throttle body/intake that looked like a small leak. Now, it is a BIG leak. Its running all over the place. I have no idea if its even safe to ride. Any ideas as to the most common causes? 2 things: The pressure regulator vacuum hose that connects to the 4th throttle bottle is cracked and loose. Also, I feel like my fuel pump doesnt ever shut off. Or at least it never stops making noise.

local bmw mechanic said its probably a stuck injector? he also said a new injector is $200...
also, getting some misfires (doesn't appear to be rpm specific) and bike feels slightly underpowered.

gas leak around throttle body 20160410
gas leak around throttle body 20160411

    

2Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:33 pm

RicK G

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If you can see fuel running out it's a fire waiting for a spark.  A check of the pump running all the time. Turn the key on then touch the start button, the pump should run for 1.5 sec then stop if the engine is not running, if the engine is running or even turning over on the starter the pump will be running and runs continuously.
Clean the area with degreaser and hose off and let it dry, start the bike and find exactly where the fuel is leaking from. Check your spark plugs to see if the #4 cyl is running rich, it woulde be very black and wet.
Send the injectors to get them serviced they will be able to tell you if any are faulty. Don't go buying an injector for $200. Thre are many cars that use those (mainly BMWs) and used good ones are readily available
To be honest it sounds like your mechanic is just too lazy to check where a used injector is available and goes to BMW because that is easy and he doesn't care about the price to you.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

3Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:23 pm

bgambrogi

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Ha thanks for tha advice. I tried to remove my fuel injectors but they are completely stuck in the engine.I've never removed them before, but I don't think this is normal. Is this a safety concern?

    

4Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:36 pm

RicK G

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Before you attempt to remove them make sure there is nothing down the side of them that will fall into the port then engine. Clean around them using carb ans throttle body cleaner and compressed air taking care not to let anything get to the paintwork. Finish of using a vacuum cleaner with a small nozzle. The carb cleaner should have released the O-ring from its stuck position, if not soak and leave over night. You may have to work them around and be quite brutal but don't lever against the plastic parts of the injector


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

5Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:23 am

Dai

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I offer another possibility if the fuel pump check is successful (i.e. it shuts off). If that was a fuel leak, I don't think you'd get the 'dirt stuck to a shiny bit' look because the fuel would evaporate. It could be oil. 'Slightly underpowered' and 'misfire' may point to a split vent hose between the airbox and the crankcase.


__________________________________________________
1983 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec, 1987 K100RT
Others...
1978 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, 1979 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,1993 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California
2020 Royal Enfield Bullet 500
    

6Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty update Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:36 pm

bgambrogi

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Okay guy, thanks for the opinions.

update:

I pulled the fuel injectors and rail.

Surprisingly, all the injectors actually look pretty good and are spraying pretty evenly.

The only thing I found that was weird is that the fuel hose (delivering fuel from tank to injector rail) never stopped dripping the entire time I had the rail off. I probably caught at least 10oz of fuel. This isn't normal, right?

Anyway, back to main problem (..unless that's my problem..) all I know at this point is that I have a LOT of gasoline leaking out of my 4th throttle body. New revelation is that although I definitely smell gasoline, I'm not positive it's just gasoline, because its leaving a pretty wet shiny cut on the engine, and if it were gasoline I'd expect it to burn off right away. 

Should I pull the throttle bodies? Is there anything in there that can go wrong?

    

7Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:46 pm

Holister

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mmmm... look to the post directly above you. 🤡


__________________________________________________

1989 K100RT     VIN  0097367 (naked)  
1996 K1100RS   VIN  0451808
  gas leak around throttle body Austra12    Fuel:  95 Octane
Engine Oil: Nulon Full Synthetic 15W50
Gear Box Oil:  Nulon Synthetic 75W90
    

8Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:54 pm

bgambrogi

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Still thinking cracked hose? Which hose are you referring to exactly?

    

9Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:59 pm

bgambrogi

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also, while my fuel injectors are off should i do anything more? carb cleaner in the engine holes? Or just stick em back on..

    

10Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:31 pm

RicK G

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The dripping is fairly common and nothing much to be concerned about so long as the injectors aren't leaking. Put new O-rings on the injectors at a minimum but preferably new pintle caps and filters in the top (tiny gauze filter about 3mm diameter in the top of the injector) Use an easy out or bolt extractor not sure what you call them but twist counter clockwise into a hole an extract a bolt that has been broken off.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

11Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:33 pm

bgambrogi

bgambrogi
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To extract which Bolt?

    

12Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:10 am

RicK G

RicK G
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@bgambrogi wrote:To extract which Bolt?
Sorry not very clear. I meant to get the tiny gause filter out of the top of the injector you can use a small bolt extractor. It will grab hold of it and then you can give it a wriggle instead of trying to get at it with pliers and risk damaging the lip it seals against.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

13Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:24 am

bgambrogi

bgambrogi
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okay. I can try a new o-ring but they look to be in good condition. is there anything that can go wrong in the throttle body, itself, that could account for how black and leaky it is?

    

14Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:30 am

bgambrogi

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@Dai wrote:I offer another possibility if the fuel pump check is successful (i.e. it shuts off). If that was a fuel leak, I don't think you'd get the 'dirt stuck to a shiny bit' look because the fuel would evaporate. It could be oil. 'Slightly underpowered' and 'misfire' may point to a split vent hose between the airbox and the crankcase.


Would this make sense if the leak is specifically coming from the 4th throttle body? I'll check.. Does anyone know which hose this would be?

Those that comes off the 4th throttle body (where the others are capped) looks to be worn and probably makes a poor seal. Also, the hose going into the gas tank on the left of the electrical port (not the hose bringing fuel to fuel rail) looks to have some small cracks in it. But again, the fact that the leak is only coming from one area makes me think the problem is local. Although now it looks like all of the throttle bodies seem to be leaking :/ but maybe they're just getting grime from the 4th one. Ugh... 😕 😕 😕 😕

    

15Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:39 am

K75cster

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Have a look at the first pic you posted at the end of the throttle bodies is a black electrical switch and behind it is a pipe that runs from the plenum chamber (on top of the throttle bodies) to the engine, that one is the one to check it needs to be air tight and not cracked.


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

16Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:57 am

charlie99

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good point keith

even some leakage of accumulated oil from the plenum could weep at that junction of the breather to the crankcase  .\\


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%Ogas leak around throttle body Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

bgambrogi

bgambrogi
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so a couple things:

took off my gas tank and got some more light down below. as you can see in the picture, my leak is all over whatever hose this is. the picture is taken from between the third and fourth throttle bodies. image link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxjBsuob8jgFNm9sQTFHSWRMSDJzRWJPbEJGcTFUeG5TSXhB/view?usp=sharing


Also, the hose you guys suggested checking is, indeed, pretty weathered. only around where the rubber is clamped to the plenum, so hopefully I can cut some off and reuse the hose. this connection does not look the source of my leak.


...guess I can put my injectors back together now...

    

18Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:24 pm

charlie99

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ah !! 

return fuel line ...the pic shows it coming off the fuel pressure regulator  as it makes its way back to the tank

replace all rubber to do with fuel is a must with age ,

this line is lower pressure so if you have leak on this one wonder what the lifetime of the others is like

at least 30 r 9   perhaps 30 r 8 at a pinch ? efi fuel line should be sought ... !!


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%Ogas leak around throttle body Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

19Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:07 pm

bgambrogi

bgambrogi
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by the way, I'm checking hoses.. none of the hoses on the RH side of the gas tank are plugged in. I see one disconnected with a screw stuck in it from previous owner, running to the hole in front right corner of gas tank. ...normal? im pretty sure this is not a CA emissions vehicle if that's relevant.

Actually, from the looks of it, there is no hose bringing fuel back to the gas tank. the front most hose on LH side connected to gas tank is dry (and a little cracked).

    

20Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:38 pm

charlie99

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right hand side of tank ? 
there are none ... that attach to the tank ....there are breather tubes etc  that go down the right hand side of frame behind the tank towards the swing arm ,
and water overflow that goes under the tank from the filler under tank at the front to reservoir under sidecover

from riders seating position  the fuel leaves the tank on the  left, most rear spigot ....at the front of the tank
the return line should attach again on the left hand side  front most spigot.

um a little confused as to what pipes you mean exactly

but if the return line is stoppered up wow ...!!!


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%Ogas leak around throttle body Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

21Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:48 pm

bgambrogi

bgambrogi
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sorry:

on the RH side of my tank there is a valve/opening in the front, and another in the rear. The rear valve has a little catch tray sitting below it and seems to just be an overflow drain. I can't find a diagram that shows me what the front one is for, however there is a hose on my bike right below the opening with a screw stuck in it:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxjBsuob8jgFZ29GeHRZZnphQUU/view?usp=sharing

closer view:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxjBsuob8jgFZTlGWUZLNnA2MjQ


___
The return line in the front, LH of tank is correctly connected; it is just bone dry and cracked.

    

22Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:56 pm

charlie99

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84 model ?

looks like a vacumme line ...on the early models there was a vacume switch located on the back of the throttle bodies ...that vacuume line pics off the front (first throttle body) ...which could be removed completely and a cap put on ?  as it has no real use and was discontinued on later models

the catch cup sits under the tank sort of in the middle to the back ?  and yes catches water from the filler surround (feeds through the tank ) and a breather from inside the tank ... so 2 small spigots ?

hope that helps


better take a pic of the under side of the tank for us   the right hand side spigot is confusing ?


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%Ogas leak around throttle body Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

23Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:32 pm

Dai

Dai
Life time member
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If you find a disconnected purple/white wire (?? I think the tracer is white) then that will confirm Charlie's guess. The wire goes to the vacuum switch; leaving it out/off won't affect the engine at all. The idea was to introduce a secondary advance curve at idle but it didn't really work as most bikes were set to idle above the secondary curve rev range (did that make sense?). If it didn't make sense then you can blame a bottle of 15 year old Old Poulteney 'Dunnet Head' whisky.


__________________________________________________
1983 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec, 1987 K100RT
Others...
1978 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, 1979 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,1993 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California
2020 Royal Enfield Bullet 500
    

24Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:50 pm

bgambrogi

bgambrogi
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well, as for the breather coming off the LH side (front?) of 1st throttle body, I believe thats a different hose. I lose them both near the radiator, but the "pull one, watch the other" test suggests they're different. maybe its just really pinched. anyway, I'm going to reinstall my fuel injectors. I just push them straight in while attached to rail right? I can't get them to budge inwards. my Clymer manual says to line up the injectors with their holes in the engine, then start tightening down the rail. I did that and one of the two bolt snapped off:(

Anyway! I bought a new crank case breather hose, too. Will install both, clean, and report back tomorrow. The BMW mechanic I just bought the breather hose from didn't seem too concerned that I wasn't seeing constant/regular fuel coming up the return hose, so I let idea drop for today..

I don't know what any of the stuff on the right hand side of my tank is, but my bike has been running for the year I've had it as is, so you're probably right about the vacuum hose. Charlie, you are correct about the catch cup.

Side note: I just let my gas tank sit on a table for a few hours. About a pint of gas came from fuel line, but no fuel anywhere else (was worried I had a little rust leak or something from the tank)

    

25Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:14 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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I had a similar issue and a replacement of the fuel lines and a replacement of the crankcase vent cured the problem for me.

As a general comment my advice if you get a K is replace all the fuel lines and the crank case breather/vent pipe. The fuel lines crack easily if old and hard.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

26Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:45 pm

bgambrogi

bgambrogi
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yeah. do i need to take off airbox to replace crankcase breather hose? if so, I'll just do the fuel lines today too. 

I still can't tell if its gas or oil. looks like oil but there is way too much liquid coming out to be all oil from crankcase. I'm wondering if my fuel return hose and my crankcase breather are both leaking and making the problem together. The small amount of oil leaking from breather hose would cause the grime, the crack in the return hose (which I believe should run right between airbox and plenum?) would cause the leak, and this would explain why the top of my return hose is dry.


OLAF- when you say you replaced the "crankcase vent", are you talking about the same crankcase breather hose, or is that a different one?

    

27Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:57 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Crank case vent as on breather hose. I was able to get it into place from the left said with a little jiggling about. A new one is nice and pliable and easy to wriggle in. Its got a groove in the outside of the moulding that seals up when its pushed home.

But to get at the fuel lines connections on the fuel pressure regulator I did have to take off the bottom off the air filter box, accessed them from right hand side. The bottom comes off separately, its got 2 Allen bolts in the bottom down into the top of the engine and they may be seized solid. That gave me enough working space.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

28Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:02 pm

Chocolate

Chocolate
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@bgambrogi wrote:yeah. do i need to take off airbox to replace crankcase breather hose?
No
Hello!
I a sum the part on the picture is what you are talking about.

Just take the old one of.
The hose has two sides!!! Remember how the old one set!
Put some oil on the new one, put both clamps on the hose first.
It's a tight place, but not to complicated to do.
Make sure the new hose sites correct and do not tighten it to strong, not good for the rubber.

Cheers

gas leak around throttle body Hpim1011

gas leak around throttle body K75f_014.jpg


__________________________________________________
Only a few activities make me experience my senses in a way motorcycle riding does, it is like swimming in the nude in a river.
K75 BA/1992 ABS, K75 BA/1991 noABS, Ducati, Mobylette M1/1973
    

29Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:22 pm

Inge K.

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@bgambrogi wrote:The BMW mechanic I just bought the breather hose from didn't seem too concerned that I wasn't seeing constant/regular fuel coming up the return hose, so I let idea drop for today..

He should have been .....when you push the starter button, or the engine
is running you should have a steady solid flow on the return.
If not...Your fuel pump doesn't function, or the pressure regulator is toast.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

30Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:26 pm

Inge K.

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@Chocolate wrote:gas leak around throttle body Hpim1011

gas leak around throttle body K75f_014.jpg


Hmmm........that's my kitchen table.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

31Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:56 pm

Chocolate

Chocolate
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@Inge K. wrote:Hmmm........that's my kitchen table.

Nice dinner,, the Scandinavians always have been eating strange food ;-) Inge
Could be Pinnekjøtt
Cheers


__________________________________________________
Only a few activities make me experience my senses in a way motorcycle riding does, it is like swimming in the nude in a river.
K75 BA/1992 ABS, K75 BA/1991 noABS, Ducati, Mobylette M1/1973
    

32Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:26 pm

bgambrogi

bgambrogi
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a ruptured diaphragm in the regulator or something is possible. i definitely have all symptoms of a bad pressure regulator, but lets just keep our fingers crossed on that;)


and to address an earlier conversation: my fuel pump is shutting off after one or two seconds as it should, but then once in a while when I'm riding or idling i hear a whining sort of sound coming from my tank (presumably the pump).

    

33Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty problem solved Sat May 07, 2016 6:27 pm

bgambrogi

bgambrogi
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Hey guys, just wanted to give you guys the satisfaction of a conclusion:

The problem ended up being my fuel return hose, which had a huge leak right at the first bend. So replacing the fuel lines and the crank case breather hose took care of it. No FPR issues for no, fortunately.

This is a good example of the "measure twice, cut once" mentality. Had I taken the extra time in the beginning to remove the airbox, I would have found the problem immediately. Instead, I pulled the injectors first since they were the easiest to access...


Thanks for everyone's advice and time! Seriously appreciated.

    

34Back to top Go down   gas leak around throttle body Empty Re: gas leak around throttle body Sun May 08, 2016 6:11 am

K75cster

K75cster
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Good news, all fixed


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

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