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1Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty ignition breakdown Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:50 am

chris.edwards2

chris.edwards2
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Riding home a few nights back on my '82 K100rs I had a total breakdown and cannot find the problem. The bike was running particularly well (of course) and then ignition totally dies while travelling at 60mph. Ignition lights and head lights remained on. Tried to restart but no cranking at all. Tried to bump start as on hill but no ignition (I presume).

AA arrived and we went through every connector we could find - no luck. Finally on low loader at 2:30 am. Engine will crank when battery applied direct to starter. Replaced the load shed relay as I had a problem last year with headlight remaining on and thought it may be connected. No fix.

Fuel relay clicks when pressing start button. Looked at wiring diagram and it looks like the starter solenoid is earthed through ignition module which makes me suspect the module has gone wrong - is this too simple thinking? Voltage at switch side of the solenoiud is only 9V? Curious. Fuel pump does not come on when turning on ignition.

So basically engine will not crank through Start switch and no ignition. Any suggestions on what to check next much appreciated

Chris
 p.s. The alternator light had glowed fairly brightly 10 miles previously, but had gone out.

    

2Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:23 am

RicK G

RicK G
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If the fuel relay clicks when you press the start button and the fuel pump doesn't come on then suspect the pump first of all.
Remove it and test it on a battery and caution it will have fuel in it and connecting to a battery can cause sparks.
The pump on a K100 will start when you press the start button not when you turn the key.
Sometimes a bit of crud gets in the pump and jambs it try reversing the battery connections, If it runs when you reconnect the right way check to find how the crud got in. It's usually the strainer at the base of the pump has a split or tear.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

3Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:36 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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How good is the battery? Its normal enough for the alternator light to come on at night, but its usually just a dim glow when you close throttle and use the brakes, it would possibly show a very dim glow on full beam but it would not normally glow brightly. If it was showing bright all of a sudden then there would seem to be a problem on that side of the electrics. First off check the battery, if its low remove it and charge it up and see if that works. If charging it solves the problem just make sure the battery is holding the charge then check that the alternator is producing current. If you have the bike running turn on the lights and rev it to 2000rpm, then turn lights off. The red light should not glow at this point. If your voltage is way off as in a dud battery the K wont go. This may not be the problem but start with the basics as they say.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

4Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:39 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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I did think of the fuel pump too but I thought that if it failed the starter would still turn over.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

5Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:59 am

RicK G

RicK G
admin
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Oops that'll teach me for not reading it properly. Embarassed 
Try the starter relay by disconnecting the small 2 pin plug and apply 12 v and earth directly to those 2 pins and check the plug on the module and make sure all the connectors are working and that it is plugged in properly.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

6Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:48 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Rick

You may well be right because when the battery failed on my LT it still tried to turn over. There are a few earths to check too, like the gearbox lug and even the battery terminal connections.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

7Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:51 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Check out this thread too....

https://www.k100-forum.com/t7808-good-morning

Some similarities.....


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

8Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:39 am

RicK G

RicK G
admin
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The earth connections under the tank is where the ICU gets the earth for the starter relay.
Its on the left side about mid point and has many brown wires connected to the frame under a 6mm bolt. Give them a good clean.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

9Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty cheers Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:03 am

chris.edwards2

chris.edwards2
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Thanks lots for your advice. Gave earth connection undertank a quick loosen/tighten. I'll give it a good clean later.
I've been doing all my testing with tank off and fuel pump disconnected. I assume It should still crank if all system is in good order?

Chris

    

10Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:05 am

RicK G

RicK G
admin
admin
Yeah it will still crank over with the tank off


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

11Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:19 pm

chris.edwards2

chris.edwards2
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Tried cleaning earth onto frame below tank. Hey Presto, the engine cranked. Put tank back on then tried to start engine. Just a click, back to square one. Anyway must be getting closer, thanks for advice, chris

    

12Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:33 pm

RicK G

RicK G
admin
admin
Check the connections in the 9 pin plug for the RHS switch block it sounds like a lose connection.  Also make sure that when you put the tank back on it doesn't squash the 9 pin plug as there is limited room under the tank and it easy to do.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

13Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty module damage Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:49 pm

chris.edwards2

chris.edwards2
active member
active member
done the 9 pin plug, no joy. Tried every earth and connector block. Tried earthing the brown/red wire to starter solenoid and engine cranks well - didn't have tank on and no engine firing. So solenoid is getting no earth from the ignition module. Module may have some overheating discolouration at the plug join - very slight maybe imagination or corrosion. Tried applying earth direct to module terminal in case wire had a break. I'm starting to suspect the ECU module but can't see why it cranked over yesterday a few times and don't understand if there is a logic in the module to supply earth when ignition on.
Thinking of buying a used module from ebay and eliminating that- silly idea?
Cheers
Chris

    

14Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:16 pm

RicK G

RicK G
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Before we go any further lets be sure about this. Its the Ignition Control Module ICU which is just behind the steering head beneath the top frame rail.  The Engine Control Module ECU is mounted under the seat above the battery.
The ICU supplies an earth to the starter relay if the engine isn't running or running below 711rpm.
That earth can also be supplied from the neutral light and the clutch switch
The ECU has nothing at all to do with supplying the earth to the starter relay.
If you go to the portal page and under interesting links there is a page for trouble shooting EFI/Ignition system if you follow that you should be able to find where the problem is.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

15Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:02 pm

duck

duck
Life time member
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Just curious but where did you get the 711 RPM number?  (I'm not doubting you, just curious.)




The voltage that comes to the starter button from the gear indicator (a.k.a. N light) or clutch switch is 12V+ and is sent to the starter relay via the black/yellow wire to the 86 terminal of the starter relay.

The ground for the starter relay comes to the 85 terminal via a brown/red wire from the ICU.



Last edited by duck on Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
98 Taxi Cab K1200RS
14 K1600GT
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

16Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:19 pm

RicK G

RicK G
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Just curious but where did you get the 771 RPM number?

Ingapedia I believe but I think I have seen it else where. Maybe it was BMWs workshop manual. I will search but my computer is as big a mess as my shed so be patient.

Well I must be getting better at searching didn't long at all
A lockout feature is also included to prevent the starter
motor from operating if the engine is running. Power to the
starter relay is shut off by the ignition control unit if engine
speed is greater than 711 rpm .

Page 299 Clymers


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

17Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:44 pm

RicK G

RicK G
admin
admin
Yeah that's right  ignition breakdown 610153  it 's 12 v that is supplied by the neutral light and the clutch switch not earth


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

18Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:03 am

chris.edwards2

chris.edwards2
active member
active member
ThanKS for all this advice. It is the ICU under tank below headlock. UK seems to refer to this as An ECU sorry for confusion. I can get a module on eBay for 20 pounds so will try this, as I think the earth is not switching to connected within the ICU properly,cheers

    

19Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:05 am

chris.edwards2

chris.edwards2
active member
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Then of course there is the fact it wont fire either (as well as crank)

    

20Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:37 am

RicK G

RicK G
admin
admin
Ah Ha We need a standard glossary for parts ignition breakdown 610153 Lets start with this A thingy will henceforth be called a whatsit any more brilliant ideas. idea2 

The "Thing" being fried would explain both things.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

21Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty fixed Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:29 am

chris.edwards2

chris.edwards2
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New ICU (and brushes for alternator) has fixed the issue. Running nicely again, thanks for advice

    

22Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:46 am

ReneZ

ReneZ
Life time member
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Is it an idea to have a list of parts here that people can use when fault-finding? I can imagine a list for the antipodians, UK/Europe, North America etc where we can list which parts (particularly the expensive ones like ICUs and ECUs) that people can use to temporary change their part with to check function? Most of us have some parts stowed away that might come in handy when others want to do a quick check? Idea??


__________________________________________________
Greetings from Florida! Having a 'new' K  :cyclops:    Surprised-o: 

Rene


BMW K100 - 1985 (0030029) ignition breakdown Rain
BMW K1200GT - 2003 (ZK01223)
    

23Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:13 am

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
true indeed rene

although some of us have a good support network for testing ...there are many who don't have the contact


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%Oignition breakdown Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

24Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:24 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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@ReneZ wrote:Is it an idea to have a list of parts here that people can use when fault-finding? I can imagine a list for the antipodians, UK/Europe, North America etc where we can list which parts (particularly the expensive ones like ICUs and ECUs) that people can use to temporary change their part with to check function? Most of us have some parts stowed away that might come in handy when others want to do a quick check? Idea??

When I had an ICU problem 88KE offered to swap them to check them out. As I was reasonably sure it was my problem I calculated that at least 3 sets of postage would be close to cost of getting a replacement from Motorworks. But the idea is sound. I had never met 88KE at that time but finding someone so helpful led to us meeting up and finding some new friends.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

25Back to top Go down   ignition breakdown Empty Re: ignition breakdown Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:21 pm

walfish

walfish
Life time member
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No worries , I do have a few spares and if there was an ask I would offer.


 ignition breakdown 22936


__________________________________________________
ignition breakdown Uk-log10 88 K 100  0033026 
   
                            92 K 1100 LT  6455097
    

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