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1Back to top Go down    Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:57 pm

MGM


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Got a 1985 rt just before Christmas this year and have sent time getting her ready for a trip next month to the south of France (about 2400m round trip). Done all the usual things and have her running pretty sweetly now. Only thing left is the possible overhaul of the water/oil pump. It is not showing any signs of a problem at the tell tail weep but instuctions on here looks straightforward and thought it might be a good idea. Bike has about 70,000miles and appears to have regular oil changes and servicing but dont know if the pump has ever been overhauled. Has anyone experiance and can advise me on whether I'm over worrying.

    

2Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:51 pm

japuentes

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Hi there, many of us has, and will be glad to help you, but, in my opinion, if there is no dripping at the hole, dont worry, just ride. Once there is a dripping (and it could take another 70k to that) you´ll have plenty of time to fix it, is not a catastrophic failure.
Best regards
JAP

    

3Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:03 pm

Crazy Frog

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The biggest problem with the oil/water pump is the coolant dissolving the rubber of the mechanical seal. Taking in consideration more the age than the mileage, I would certainly consider replacing the seal before taking a long trip.
It's quite easy to replace it when you are working in the comfort of your workshop but it could be another story when stocked on the side of the road.
As the design has changed over the years, you may have to replace the shaft and the impeller too. The problem is that parts are not cheap.

On another note, if you send me your itinerary and approximate dates, I will try to find some French K guru contacts for you.


Bert


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1986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML sidecar.
    

4Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:29 pm

Oldgoat

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Welcome to the board MGM! I think there are a couple of things to think about on this topic: Your budget with regards to repairs, it can get spendy depending upon what has to be replace, and how far you intend to ride the bike on outings. If its just shorter distances and your weep hole is dry I would tend to agree with JAP and say no worries, but if you plan to do some extended trips you might want to be proactive about the service. As Bert said 25 year old rubber is never in great shape and an attempt at a roadside repair would NOT be fun!

OG

    

5Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:40 pm

Oldgoat

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My bad MGM. I was scanning posts to quickly and just saw that your planned trip is 2400m in which case I would definitely at least want to pop the cover and see if it is the original impeller/shaft before heading out on a trip of that length.

OG

    

6Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:17 pm

Avenger GT

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Remove the front cover from the water pump and check if the impeller is held on the shaft by a nut or bolt. If it is held by a nut, then it is likely that the seals are the originals. If it is held by a bolt, then the seals and shaft were changed at sometime, as the 1985 bike would have had a nut.
If you find a nut you should change the seals and shaft as the threaded end of the original shaft will shear off when you torque the nut back on to it, which means you will have to remove the broken shaft destroying your new seals in the process. I found all this out the hard way last year.
Check out http://www.k100-forum.com/t1112-waterpump-seal-special-tool on this forum.
Depending on what you find you will probably have to replace the seals, shaft, impeller, and bolt. Everything you need is available from Motorworks and Motobins, and are not too expensive. Complete pumps are also available.

http://www.motorworks.co.uk/bmw/products/product.php?f=i&code=BA_15_40_GA_75&shnew=New&model=K75/100/1100&shnewcode=15&part=Cooling&sub_part=Oil+and+water+pump+parts&modelcode=40&partcode=GA&source_code=BA_15_40_GA_75&header_text=&header_text_image=0

http://www.motobins.co.uk/bmw-parts.php?model=K%20Series

By the way, no coolant/oil dripping from the tell tale hole does not mean that there is not a problem there. The hole through the engine block and pump on my K100RT was completely blocked, and I had to drill the crud and corrosion out of it. I only found out that there was a problem when I found oil in the coolant expansion tank.

    

7Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:26 pm

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I once had a VW Rabbit/Golf that I discovered coolant in the engine sump of. It was not a pretty sight when I tore it down to replace the rod and main bearings. The knocking sound at idle was rather rhythmic though. Coolant eats bearing surfaces quickly.

    

8Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:52 pm

MGM


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Thanks all, you have confirmed my suspicions and will play it safe and take a good look this weekend and order the parts needed. Have used both Motobins and Motorworks since starting the project and found both very reliable.

I did wonder how reliable the weep hole would be as an indication of a problem especially given the state of the housing when I first got her. Thanks Avenger GT for the tip on the fragile shaft, had read that the early units were held on my a nut, just the type of feedback that makes this forum such a valuable resource.

    

9Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:29 pm

Crazy Frog

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MGM,

The weep hole is only an indicator of a big problem (if the seal is leaking). If the rubber starts to disintegrate, nothing will shows up until it's too late.
The best advise when replacing the seal is to use a press or your wise to press the seal into the pump. Avoid using a hammer to pound it in place.


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1986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML sidecar.
    

10Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:37 pm

Oldgoat

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I can attest to the hammer not being the way to go! Embarassed

    

11Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Fri May 06, 2011 4:55 pm

MGM


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Quick note to thank everyone who provided advice allowing me to get the k100 working and reliable for the trip. Rode it from Oxford to the South of France and back with no problems raising money for Charity. Others were braver with bikes ranging from 250 MZ, CanAm and Honda, to a range of larger Jap bikes and a number of K series BM's. The group raised over £20K in total.
The K100 was perfect for the trip, smooth and comfortable averaging 50miles/gal. I had intended to sell her once the trip was complete, but its such a good tool she deserves to be restored to former glory. Thanks again for all the help.

    

12Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Fri May 06, 2011 5:18 pm

Oldgoat

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Good for you MGM! Riding and raising money. Cool Doesn't get much better than that!!

OG

    

13Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Fri May 06, 2011 5:37 pm

Crazy Frog

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Oh, you learned French during your trip ( ).
Hope you found your way back to England and are not writing from a French pub or restaurant!

Cheers

Bert


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1986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML sidecar.
    

14Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Mon May 23, 2011 12:55 pm

RIMK100


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Looking for some jhelp on where I can fnd the kit to rebuilt water / oil pump on my 85 k100ks.

    

15Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Mon May 23, 2011 12:56 pm

RIMK100


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I have seen all the right up and how too; but don't think I have seen any links or sugestion on where to get the parts.

    

16Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Mon May 23, 2011 2:04 pm

Crazy Frog

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Click here to open the Motobin page

Select 'Engine parts' on the first pull down menu
select 'Oil pump and Water Pump' on the second pull down menu.

All the parts are listed there.

CF


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1986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML sidecar.
    

17Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Fri May 27, 2011 12:05 pm

ReneZ

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Parts readily available with the usual suspects.


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Greetings from Florida! Having a 'new' K  :cyclops:    Surprised-o: 

Rene


BMW K100 - 1985 (0030029)
BMW K1200GT - 2003 (ZK01223)
    

18Back to top Go down    Oil and water..... on Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:57 am

Mark K Boy

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I bought the LT last week......

Oil and water out of the tell tail.

He said all seals had been replaced and had spent hours trying to fix the problem. 1 week ago.

My thoughts:-

Swap out and at the same time have a good look at the difference  - if any - between the RS and LT pumps in that the way they have been put together (the RS is fine).

I do have a couple of K100s I could swap out the pumps for and leave the K11RS alone if they fit? (My preference)

Rick are you out there mate?

I just want to ride the puppy......

Also, what's the best way to flush the motor to get out the YUCK?

Thanks guys.....


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19Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:50 am

92KK 84WW Olaf


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Not sure about swapping pump from one bike to another.

I asked my friend here about that and he said its not a runner.

What is possible is that your previous owner did do the job but damaged the seals in refitting. My friend who did mine is ex BMW and does them blindfold but he was most emphatic about watching it for the first few weeks to make sure all was well. Turned out all was well and it has been to France twice since and been through 2 sets of tyres.

For mine I replaced the shaft and everything on it. Its not worth cutting a few cent and having it go wrong.


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1992 K100LT 0193214 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Baja Red bought 36,000 now 83,150miles
    

20Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:26 pm

Mark K Boy

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Thanks Irish.

Mate Charlie (Gurty) told me the same thing - saying that they probably didn't "lightly" cut back to shaft so the seals are not riding on old crap.....

However the dripping is substantial - there is water in my oil - not to mention my back tyre (I hate that)..... Shocked


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21Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:20 pm

charlie99

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just order the parts from the bins mark

we can do it easy

you will need the water and oil seal ....and a new o ring for the pump body to engine

water in the oil crikey that certainly built up some pressure then


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'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%O
    

22Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:01 pm

Dai

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To add something to what Olaf said: while doing a K1100 pump seal I asked the owner to get a secondhand pump housing because the inlet spigot was, well, almost non-existant with corrosion. That was when I found out that there are at least two different types of pump housing. The external dimensions are identical but internally there are some considerable differences in the oilways and the size of the oil pump gears.


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'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

23Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:52 pm

Mark K Boy

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@charlie99 wrote:just order the parts from the bins mark

we can do it easy

you will need the water and oil seal ....and a new o ring for the pump body to engine

water in the oil crikey that certainly built up some pressure then

Beauty! Mate this time try and finish the old man off - there will be more room in the shed.

Thanks Dai / Olaf


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Mark Surman
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24Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:07 pm

RicK G

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The K1100 will have the small tooth gears but the seal kit is the same. If you can feel an iregularity with your finger nail then ditch the shaft as it will give problems and sooner rather than later.
The earlier large tooth pumps can be used but the gears cannot be swaped. I noted a few weeks ago that the K1200 bricks have the large tooth gears which not only pump more oil but the water pump will spin a bit faster.
Also you can use the old cast type impeller with the new seal if you machine 3mm from the boss on the vane.


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If everything seems under control then you aint goin fast enough:- Mario Andretti
Bikes 1986 K100RT, 1993 K1100 LT, 1994 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 & 1976 SR 500 Yamaha for now
    

25Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:49 pm

Mark K Boy

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Thanks Rick, Charlie said you would put me right..... 
I'm glad NOT to hear things like SH## your going to have to drop the motor out, or, bugger me mate thats a drama...


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Mark Surman
Keep the shinny side up !

http://www.marksurman.com
    

26Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:22 am

Avenger GT

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The pumps can be swapped, K100 to K1100 and vice versa. Just keep the gear sets with their own pumps.

    

27Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:07 pm

Mark K Boy

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Thanks GT.


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Mark Surman
Keep the shinny side up !

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28Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:59 pm

Mark K Boy

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Update.....

I learnt,

Rather than push the shaft through from the motor side of the bike and hope the water seal will be Okay with that  .....

Work the seal down the shaft gently as you go.....

The key word gently.....

Order of Assembly.


 
A little alcohol to clean the surfaces...... What....?




I use ThreeBond  1211 as a sealant.
some may have a problem with this however it works...


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Mark Surman
Keep the shinny side up !

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29Back to top Go down    Resurrecting old thread! on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:13 pm

MMWW

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hey guys. I fitted the replacement kit over the weekend. My 89 K100 had the original boot and rusted round spindle. Luckily I had bought a replacement newer type in the event this happened. 

All was going great until I tried to tighten the shafted clog back into the pump unit. It got so far with probably 1cm or so to go and just wouldn't engage any more. The bolt I was tightening at one end would just spin and not drawer in the shaft anymore. 

Then even though I read not to force it on I had a moment of unclarity and did... breaking the new spring mechanised seal... so I've ordered another water and oil seal and will attempt take 2 over the weekend. 

Does anyone have any tips for getting the final length of the shaft to feed through so the clog sits flush with the housing? I did try using a longer screw but that didn't work either. 

Cheers

    

30Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:30 pm

Mark K Boy

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Hi, 

I don't think any if us get any with doing this job with one set of seals. It takes that $70 sting to slow down..... 

It's been awhile since I've done this dance however, the second time I did it I remember a flash of enlightenment.... 
I remember sharing it with Charlie. However, the bad news is I can not remember.  It was the reverse of what I did the first time. In that rather than pushing the shafts through, let the case move up the shaft, (I know that doesn't make much sence) however it was something like that. 
And, of course you oil the lips of the seals and shafts in order to facilitate a smooth install. 
If you find your becoming impatient, remember you can always down tools and come back to it. (And save $70).

I hope this helps.


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Mark Surman
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31Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:04 pm

Dai

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IIRC I was a bit abusive and put a deep socket over the spindle that was the same outside diameter as the pump seal. I then turned the whole lot upside down so that the gear was on the bench (on a towel actually) and effectively drove the pump casing onto the gear. Inevitably the gear hits the back of the pump and won't turn, but at this point a smart tap on the spindle with the hammer will produce enough clearance to turn the gear without it binding on the engine and without destroying the seal (as you are punching the spindle into the seal). If you go too far the other way, see above re: towel and socket!


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'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

32Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:17 pm

Mark K Boy

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Yep, what Dai said....


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Mark Surman
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http://www.marksurman.com
    

33Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:39 am

MMWW

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Thanks guys. I actually did end up driving the shaft on the cog into the casing by turning it upside down and applying pressure. I think it seperated the seal with the spring mechanism however so am a bit hesitant about trying that again. If I pushed the cog there was no springy pushback...

The cog does fit flush with the housing but I think the seal has broken in the process as there's backwards and forward play for half an inch where the shaft/cog can be pushed out of being flush against the housing. 

I'm not sure whether the cog turns when it is flush. Will have a look in the week when I get to the garage. 

Day, where abouts did you tap with the hammer to get the cog to turn? I'll try this before ripping out the existing seals to see if it works.

Looking at the picture earlier in this thread I didn't have item 3 counting down from the pump (inbetween the cog and the seal)... my pump for sure has not been updated since the day it rolled off the production line in 89. Hopefully this sits elsewhere in the pump and I haven't paid enough attention 

Cheers

    

34Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:46 am

Mark K Boy

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Hi, 

The photos I posted are from a K11. 
A part from the amount of teeth on the cogs, I'm not sure if there is difference.


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Mark Surman
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http://www.marksurman.com
    

35Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:35 am

Dai

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Yep, you've sent the seal to the great bin in the sky. The trick is to use a socket that is the same O/D as the seal housing; you're then driving the seal housing which is driving the casing which... etc.


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California,
'03 Suzuki Blandit GSF600SK3 (NFS any more because wifey has claimed it)
    

36Back to top Go down    Re: Advise on oil/water pump rebuild on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:03 am

MMWW

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Ah so put a deep socket from the side the bolt screws in (where my new type spindle goes) pushing on the head of the seal driving the entire casing down onto the shafted gear?

Thanks guys Very Happy

    

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