[solved]Performance with sidecar

tinyspuds · 1 [solved]Performance with sidecar Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:21 am

tinyspuds

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My 86 K100 has around 62k miles and runs well. What is the group’s experience of top end performance?
I’m not concerned with going faster but am interested as an indicator of general health (the things you worry about when you can’t ride).
I’ve seen posts about performance that suggests my top end of 74mph is below what others experience.
My outfit is pretty wide track and weighs around 160lbs, 70kg and I probably carry about 20 - 40 lbs on top of that.
Using the gear box as intended it will whip up to 65 mph pretty smartly but the next 10 are a long haul (both these numbers were 10 mph down before I put my new clutch in).
I’ll start a general thread for diagnosis if you folk think it should do better.
TIA, Stu. Stay safe.

92KK 84WW Olaf · 2 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:31 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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160lb is more like a regular pillion and I can tell you the K will more than easily top 100 mph two up.

So.....any chance it has a restrictor kit fitted?

However sidecar creates drag and rolling resistance but I can't believe it is as much as that.

Plugs looking good?

Throttle cable correctly fitted so you can use full length and full throttle opening? Not uncommon...check the mechanism at the grip.

Throttle opening not being restricted at throttle bodies by interference from clamps etc?

Throttle bodies balanced correctly?

Vacuum leaks?

Valve clearances good?

Injectors good?

HES located correctly?

Crazy Frog · 3 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:51 am

Crazy Frog

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My EML is really heavy (123kg or 270lbs + earles forks, dual swing arm and heavy subframe) I figure that it must be a total of 350lbs extra weight on the bike.
The fastest I ever went was 145km/h (this was recorded on the GPS). I could have gone faster, but I didn't want to push my luck. At this speed, any unforeseen event could be catastrophic with a sidecar.
Imagine a strong side wind gust affraid

Rick G · 4 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:44 am

Rick G

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Make sure the throttle is opening fully like 88 said it can snag on the clamps or the cable could be bad. Check that the bevel gears in the right side grip are aligned correctly this is a very common reason.

Point-Seven-five · 5 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:52 am

Point-Seven-five

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How much ethanol is in your fuel? It might be worthwhile to check performance with a tank of pure petrol. You can usually find it at marinas where it's sold for use in boats.

Tire pressure?

How is the third wheel tracking?

AL-58 · 6 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:42 pm

AL-58

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I've had three K based sidecars, A well worn K100RT, a 16V RS and the latest is a K100RS with and 1100LT motor fitted. All have had a 1.5 HRD sidecar so the wind push is the same, though the latest one has a different chassis which is a bit heavier.

35 years ago when I was braver/stupider I found that my K100RT outfit would get to 170kmh (on the speedo) but was very unstable at that speed. My current one will get to 145kmh if pushed but it doesn't have anything else left in it, while it's reliable its a not a great engine. It will happily cruise at 120-130 which is more than enough.

When loaded up for a weekend (25kg standard load, 10kg extra fuel, 32kg dog and probably 30kg of camping gear) I never try for speed anyway.

Al

Saxon7 · 7 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:54 pm

Saxon7

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One thing I have noticed with sidecars is that wind plays an enormous part in the whole affair. My old 85 K100RT would nudge 160kmh on the speedo with Bella ( 20kg) in the chair along a straight piece of road between Ben Lomond and Guyra here. With any kind of headwind or across the front quarter in anyway, top end would immediately be reduced to around 135kmh on the same bit of road. Still, as long as i can sit comfortably on 100-110 and 120 if the drums are beating, I'm happy. Not sure what the new outfit will do yet.

tinyspuds · 8 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:04 pm

tinyspuds

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Thanks everyone. Seems like I may be 20% or so down on other sidecar user experience.

Bert, as a bench mark do you happen to know the approximate rpm at your recorded 145kph?

I haven’t checked the plugs since I had the valves professionally re shimmed a couple of thousand miles ago, and now I know that I probably do have an issue I’ll start working through the check list.

The one thing that no one has mentioned is the MAF. I’ve read a lot on here about the effects of a worn pick up on the MAF ‘barn door’. I have a used MAF sitting on the shelf so will probably take them apart to compare condition once I have ruled the obvious out, anything I should be aware of before I do that?

I’ll also do a compression test. I brought the bike back from a 10 year rest, and have again read here that rings are known to seize with standing. I’ve never done the 10cc of oil through the plug hole cure, but would I be right in thinking that the 5,000 odd miles I’ve done since getting back on the road would have cleared any sticking anyway?

Thanks as always, Stu

Laitch · 9 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:59 am

Laitch

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tinyspuds wrote:I haven’t checked the plugs since I had the valves professionally re shimmed a couple of thousand

Good practice would be to balance the throttle bodies after valve clearance adjustment. Was that done?

tinyspuds · 10 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:24 am

tinyspuds

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Thanks Laitch,
I didn’t balance the TBs after the valve re shim (bike has a smooth steady tickover). May have under estimated the importance.
Another one for the list.

Crazy Frog · 11 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:55 am

Crazy Frog

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tinyspuds wrote:Bert, as a bench mark do you happen to know the approximate rpm at your recorded 145kph?

Unless you have a slipping clutch, the ratio speed/RPM is a constant and never change.

My RPM is running a bit higher than the normal due to the fact that I have 15" car wheels on the bike.
The RPM at 145km/h with 15" rims is 5879 and should be 5413 with original wheels/tires.
This is at the real speed not taking in consideration the error of the speedo.
To calibrate your speedo or at least find its accuracy, please download K-diag here:
http://www.kforum-tech.com/Karamba/K_DIAG.zip

Part of the EFI/Ignition on a K bike includes a builtin rev limiter (8900 RPM). Just a "stupid" question: Can you rev the engine up to 6 or 7,000 RPM?

92KK 84WW Olaf · 12 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:01 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Just an off chance question but is it possible you have a different ICU/FICU in the K?.....someone else can confirm but there is a reduced power one I think Swiss that might cause that.....Ks and their parts do move around.

Crazy Frog · 13 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:05 am

Crazy Frog

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92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:Just an off chance question but is it possible you have a different ICU/FICU in the K?.....someone else can confirm but there is a reduced power one I think Swiss that might cause that.....Ks and their parts do move around.

Good point Olaf.

You are right about the Swiss version, but I think the rev is limited at around 7,000RPM.
The ICU is different on the Swiss version, but the FICU is the same.

tinyspuds · 14 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:07 am

tinyspuds

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Bert
The bike will rev to at least 7k in neutral but pretty sure I've never seen it there under load (another test for the list). Same conditions it will hesitate and spit back running thru the 4500 mark. This is interesting as according to your scale, 4400 is 74mph (my top end by gps speed) so perhaps under load I’m feeling that as ‘running out of steam’. Coincidence? any thought on what would cause a misfire in that rev range?

Olaf

Bike was 1st reg in UK but I bought it with no history so who knows? I have used spares of both black boxes so I could try a swap at some point.

Sorry if this all sounds a bit basic, but I didn’t know I had an issue until I asked the question this morning.

Point-Seven-five · 15 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:07 am

Point-Seven-five

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How is the ignition timing? The basic timing with the notches aligned is pretty good. It's very easy to set and doesn't need any fancy test equipment. There's a picture of it in the factory service manual.

It's possible that a previous owner may have done some "tuning".

92KK 84WW Olaf · 16 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:29 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Olaf

Bike was 1st reg in UK but I bought it with no history so who knows? I have used spares of both black boxes so I could try a swap at some point.

Sorry if this all sounds a bit basic, but I didn’t know I had an issue until I asked the question this morning.

That's what the forum is for so ask anything you need.....hope too an answer will be found.

Crazy Frog · 17 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:36 pm

Crazy Frog

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tinyspuds wrote:any thought on what would cause a misfire in that rev range?

Does the engine misfire or just lack of power?
If it misfire, I would check spark plugs, spark wires and coils.
To check the coils, I would start the engine in the dark and see if there is no arcing on the coil or near them.

Two Wheels Better · 18 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:22 pm

Two Wheels Better

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One thing to keep in mind (which may be obvious to many of you) if going for a rev limiter issue, is that the grey ignition box at the back of the steering head is where the limiting is done, rather than the large L-Jet box under the seat.

The Swiss unit OEM part number is 12 14 1 459 275 and the rest of the world is 12 14 1 459 018. Some of that part number may be visible on the unit but it may also be a Bosch number.

Crazy Frog · 19 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:50 pm

Crazy Frog

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Thanks TWB, but I don't think the issue is with the rev limiter.
On neutral, the bike can go to 7,000rpm.
From what I understand, when riding, the bike seems to lack power over 4,500rpm.
It could be a fuel supply issue, but I am thinking more about an ignition problem. As I stated, a bad coil could be the problem.
I may be wrong....

Two Wheels Better · 20 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:55 pm

Two Wheels Better

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Crazy Frog wrote:Thanks TWB, but I don't think the issue is with the rev limiter.
On neutral, the bike can go to 7,000rpm.
From what I understand, when riding, the bike seems to lack power over 4,500rpm.
It could be a fuel supply issue, but I am thinking more about an ignition problem. As I stated, a bad coil could be the problem.
I may be wrong....

I get that, just offering up numbers if that turns out to be a solution to the problem. Once a parts guy, always a parts guy.
I would be doing a compression check (with and without added oil) quick smart if only to get a baseline.

tinyspuds · 21 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:49 pm

tinyspuds

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Thanks all,
I think for today I will check plug condition and do 3 compression tests: 1 cold, 1 hot, 1 hot plus added oil.
After dark I will check over the coil and HT circuits.
I’ll defer the timing check until I’ve tested everything that needs a running engine.
Report to follow.
Stu:

Last edited by tinyspuds on Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:48 am; edited 3 times in total

tinyspuds · 22 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:12 am

tinyspuds

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What does the team think?

Plugs on 1 to 3 look a little lean to my eye, 4 is darker.

Compression test. (I’m assuming some variation by cylinder as my gauge has a screw fitment and flexible hose, so probably a little variation on finger tightness. The oil-added test is also subject to caution as dripping equal quantities into a flat four was probably variously successful).

Someone here suggested a cold test - but I can’t find any reference data for the results. However PSI:

cyl 1 2 3 4

Cold 105 105 110 105

Hot 105 105 105 110

Hot+oil 120 125 115 120

So, reasonably consistent across the cylinders, with a notable improvement with oil.

Not ‘good’ on 1,3 & 4 - will come up with a way to calibrate my gauge.

Hot vs + Oil suggests rings rather than valves.

Questions:

Is it likely that I would have worn rings on all 4 cyls at c. 62k miles?

Is it feasible that I could have stuck rings given that I have about 5k miles on it since its 10 year stand?

Thanks as ever for your thoughts. Stu

Point-Seven-five · 23 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:31 pm

Point-Seven-five

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Did you hold the throttle wide open and let the engine crank at least six compression strokes on each cylinder? Did you pull all the spark plugs before the test? Does your gauge have an o-ring to seal the connection?

The numbers do look a bit low. My engines test at 150 to 170 psi. I use a cheap gauge, so the error could be as much as +/-15psi.

5000 miles after 10 years could definitely be stuck rings. Does the engine use a bit of oil?

tinyspuds · 24 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:24 pm

tinyspuds

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Point-Seven-five wrote:Did you hold the throttle wide open

Yes, when I started over again

and let the engine crank at least six compression strokes on each cylinder?

Yes

Did you pull all the spark plugs before the test?

Yes

Does your gauge have an o-ring to seal the connection?

No

The numbers do look a bit low. My engines test at 150 to 170 psi. I use a cheap gauge, so the error could be as much as +/-15psi.

If yours reads high and mine low, I’d be a happy bunny, but will attempt to calibrate mine against my compressor

5000 miles after 10 years could definitely be stuck rings. Does the engine use a bit of oil?

That’s part of the puzzle, it’s used practically none in each of the 2k mile stretches I’ve done between oil changes

Is adding the recommended 10ml of oil through the plugs and letting it rest for the lock down duration the best next step?

Ive read about Marvel Mystery and Seafoam additives but that seems pointless given that I wont be using the bike for the Summer.

Would carb cleaner spray thru the heads be more effective than oil do you think?

Cheers, Stu

92KK 84WW Olaf · 25 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:47 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Consistency across cylinders is not bad at all.

Change from cold to hot to hot plus oil is also consistent.

Stuck rings a possibility but before going too far I figure use another gauge or check out those
O rings.....no oil used isn't really pointing to stuck piston rings and consistency across the readings seems to say non or all are stuck.

tinyspuds · 26 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:22 pm

tinyspuds

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Thanks Olaf and .75,

As you say O, consistency is good.

I would have thought oil getting past leaky rings would have burnt some, No?

I’ll calibrate my existing gauge and see if I can source another.

I’m looking for a missing 15 to 20 mph,

If the timing was off enough to do that I’d expect to hear pinging or knocking or pre-ignition bangs.

Plugs aren’t close to melting point or black.

I may have some TB air leaks at plenum and head, test and fix tomorrow.

Will clean up coil and plug connections and try to soak some oil down onto the rings.

TBH I doubt I’d do either a ring or valve job, so I’ll take my best shot but she may just end up going back on the road with reduced power.

Thanks again, Stu.

PS Olaf, I was planning a Summer trip to the Republic and buy you a glass of stout. Don’t see our governments letting us do that now 🤩 [solved]Performance with sidecar 502531

🤯

Point-Seven-five · 27 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:52 pm

Point-Seven-five

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Sounds like you did the test properly. Uniformity is good, so it may be the gauge just reads low. I don't understand the lack of an o-ring seal. Most of the compression gauges I've used over the years had one. That could be a reason for the low readings.

I wonder if the MAF sensor has a sticky flapper that is restricting the air flow. That could certainly hamper the engine's ability to rev.

As far as Seafoam or Marvel Mystery oil, you could try adding some to the fuel and a bit to the engine oil. My experience is that it helps loosen up the rings, but it takes a couple thousand miles.

tinyspuds · 28 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:24 pm

tinyspuds

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Today after warm up and before the test I took it up to 8500 rpm in neutral and it didn’t hesitate at the 4500 mark, perhaps just bloody minded or the fitting and re fitting of plugs, HT leads and Coil terminations or maybe the oil I injected last night...
Interesting about the MAF though, I have a spare (used) and I’ve read that a number of my on road symptoms can be traced back there, so I’ll probably swap it.
Also encouraged to hear that you think it could take take thousands of running miles to clear the sticky rings, as its pretty much my plan to just keep riding and if it gets faster, great.
I don’t think its likely that all 4 cylinders would be severely under compressed at the same time at 60 odd K without other symptoms so I’ll sort out the TB air leaks, fettle the HT side of things and carry on regardless.

Thanks PSF

tinyspuds · 29 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:38 pm

tinyspuds

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Having found a few air leaks at the injectors and the TB manifolds I ordered new injector O rings and set about tightening the manifold clamps. Most had some minor slack since I fitted new manifolds and clamps about 4k miles ago. Once I got the injectors out of the way it was immediately obvious that the TB linkage was fouling the clamp screw on cyl 3. A quick trim of the screw to allow the linkage to clear the clamp and I have 20 to 30 percent more movement at the throttle.
Given the number of times I have read about this ‘gotcha’ on TB assembly I can only conclude that I’m a danger to myself.
It won’t stop me, but I will try harder.
It also won’t stop me feeling stupid. But I am looking forward to seeing the improvement after I’ve balanced the TBs and lockdown is lifted.
Thanks as always for the support, your none to bright friend Stu.

Dai · 30 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:08 pm

Dai

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You think I haven't done that too? I was just fortunate to figure out that the throttle didn't feel right before I hit the road.

indian036 · 31 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:48 pm

indian036

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Are you sure there wasn't someone in your household who didn't want you to ride too fast? Very Happy

Snuck into your garage in the dead of night?

Bill

tinyspuds · 32 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:29 am

tinyspuds

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Dai wrote: You think I haven't done that too? I was just fortunate to figure out that the throttle didn't feel right before I hit the road.

My only saving grace (excuse) in this is that when I stripped the TBs out I had only put a few miles on the bike and had not been anywhere near full throttle. Far too old to be embarrassed just really excited about getting out to try it cheers

.

tinyspuds · 33 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:59 am

tinyspuds

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indian036 wrote:Are you sure there wasn't someone in your household who didn't want you to ride too fast? Snuck into your garage in the dead of night?

Bill

Bill
After 5 weeks of lockdown it’s far more likely that Mrs Spuds would have installed a secret Turbo affraid

Stu

indian036 · 34 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:58 am

indian036

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If Mrs Bill knew enough about what she was doing, she’d probably stop mine from running at all. Razz

Fortunately, the many things she does well don’t include things mechanical. Very Happy

Bill

92KK 84WW Olaf · 35 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:09 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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tinyspuds wrote:Having found a few air leaks at the injectors and the TB manifolds I ordered new injector O rings and set about tightening the manifold clamps. Most had some minor slack since I fitted new manifolds and clamps about 4k miles ago. Once I got the injectors out of the way it was immediately obvious that the TB linkage was fouling the clamp screw on cyl 3. A quick trim of the screw to allow the linkage to clear the clamp and I have 20 to 30 percent more movement at the throttle.
Given the number of times I have read about this ‘gotcha’ on TB assembly I can only conclude that I’m a danger to myself.
It won’t stop me, but I will try harder.
It also won’t stop me feeling stupid. But I am looking forward to seeing the improvement after I’ve balanced the TBs and lockdown is lifted.
Thanks as always for the support, your none to bright friend Stu.

You got me looking back at post 2.......

Glad it was simple in the end.

So, as soon as you get over here there's a Guinness waiting for you!!!

tinyspuds · 36 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:25 am

tinyspuds

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92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:You got me looking back at post 2.......

Glad it was simple in the end.

So, as soon as you get over here there's a Guinness waiting for you!!!

Olaf
Re post 2, yeah I know. I've seen it so many times but was confident it was all clear. No accounting for misplaced over confidence.
Guinness sounds good but absolutely no part of my desire to travel

92KK 84WW Olaf · 37 Re: [solved]Performance with sidecar Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:08 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Might be if it happened to be inside a pudding......

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