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1Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty TB´s synchronization at idle on Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:18 pm

japuentes

japuentes
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As part of the maintenance a TB synchronization was in order, as the last time (3years ago), using a comercial one, is deemed too expensive for the frecuency and the results obtained with the home made had been very good, so I got the required parts:
4 6cc descartable syringes
The 4 springs I used the last time (small enough to fit in to the syrynges)
Appropiate diameter hose
Small cardboard to fix the syringes
Wife´s heat glue gun

Assembled as per the pictures

On this one the vacuum distribution prior to synchronization
TB´s synchronization at idle P1200310

And here once synchronized
TB´s synchronization at idle P1200311
I put a drop of oil on the syringes to reduce friction.
Synchronization procedure is the standart for idle
Hope this helps
Best regards
JAP


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TB´s synchronization at idle 2854237993 1988 K100RS SE/ABS
    

2Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:21 pm

klompy the grey brick

klompy the grey brick
VIP
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very clever...could you feel the difference?


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KKlompy TB´s synchronization at idle 2854237993
"Grace" 1984 K100RS Silver VIN 0019026 Mitt eine Staintune Zorst.
"Olivia" 1997 K1100LT Dark Grey VIN WB1052600W0237453.









Chassis number0019026
Vehicle code0503
SeriesK589
ModelK 100 RS 83 (0502 ( 0503 )
Body typeK 100 RS 83 (0502
Catalog modelECE
Production date1984 / 07
Engine0513)

TB´s synchronization at idle Au-log10


    

3Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:26 pm

japuentes

japuentes
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Hi, yes I felt it the last time, a noticeable vibration reduction reduction. During the the last rides, vibration was rising again.
I have not finish the bike yet, guess that I´ll need to change the gearbox seal.
Best regards
JAP


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TB´s synchronization at idle 2854237993 1988 K100RS SE/ABS
    

4Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:54 pm

yankeeone

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nice job.

    

5Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:28 pm

rotormotored

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Hello japuentes,
The rubber inside the syringes acually moves with the vaccum?

Ed

    

6Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:19 pm

japuentes

japuentes
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@rotormotored wrote:Hello japuentes,
The rubber inside the syringes acually moves with the vaccum?

Ed
Yes, the vacuum tries to move the pistons inwards, and the spring tend to avoid it, more the vacuum more the inward displacement.
As all the pistons and springs are equal, when pistons are on the same position, the vacuum is the same.
Best regards
JAP


__________________________________________________
TB´s synchronization at idle 2854237993 1988 K100RS SE/ABS
    

7Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:53 am

charlie99

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a verry nice and cheep solution jap ......thanks for posting this

it just goes to show ingenuity at work ...!


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cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%OTB´s synchronization at idle Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

8Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:24 am

Ned

Ned
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Nice job !
I may try it as I have access to syringes.

I tried to make a device from plastic tubes, water and so on. It didn't work because it was far to sensitive to differences in pressure and at one stage I got all the water sucked into the cylinder Smile No harm done, but I had to abandon this approach and purchase a commercial unit.
It is a good tool but it has its limitation due to spring tension used and mass of metal rods(pistons) that vacuum has to move. Used with caution and care you can get a good result.

Two things :
a. balancing TB is influences what happens when the butterfly are in closed or neat closed position. This is where air flow is restricted and subsequently important. At open throttle the difference is negligible because the air volume is governed by the diameter of TB.
b. I managed to smooth my bike by eliminating air leaks around the TBs (top and bottom) and all air leaks in the air intake system (both boxes).


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I reserve the right to voice my opinions on any subject known to man
Ned

05/1986 (K55) K100RS Motorsport (Europe), Production Code: 0503, 110k km, VIN:0140519 (SOLD)
1976 Honda Goldwing GL1000 (naked)
1997 BMW K1200RS red, VIN: WB10544A1VZA22667
    

9Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:39 am

Ghost who rides

Ghost who rides
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Brilliant !!!!

Go straight to the top of the class.


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1986  K 75 C   2nd owner 187,000kms showing .
1987  K100RT  Police repainted, rough and unloved.
    

10Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:28 am

Ajays

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I have the commercial set and it would be interesting to see if there is any difference.

A really good job mate.

Ajays


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TB´s synchronization at idle Th_Kengine_gif

AJAYS
    

11Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:45 am

nino

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Ned, you can reduce vacuum force with little plastic vents (aquarium use - very cheap) in each tube. Dont use water in tubes, use light red oil for automatic transmission. Its much more controlable and visible.

Regards

    

12Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:31 am

japuentes

japuentes
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@Ned wrote:
a. balancing TB is influences what happens when the butterfly are in closed or neat closed position. This is where air flow is restricted and subsequently important. At open throttle the difference is negligible because the air volume is governed by the diameter of TB.
.

Yes, this synchronization, using the bypass screws, is for the idle range only, while doing it you can see the pistons keeping it in the 950 to 1500 rpm range.
Over 1500rpm the vacuum is to low for the syringe/spring set I use and is not to be synchronized with the bypass screws but with the TB´s linkage ones.
Adjusting the TB´s linkage at home is considered a serious sin.
Best regards
JAP


__________________________________________________
TB´s synchronization at idle 2854237993 1988 K100RS SE/ABS
    

13Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:59 pm

gmcq

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Ingenious. I have a commercial set but with only two dials, used for my previous air heads so will give your method a go.

GMcQ


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1996 K1100LTIC 0235790
    

14Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:00 pm

Ned

Ned
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@nino wrote:Ned, you can reduce vacuum force with little plastic vents (aquarium use - very cheap) in each tube. Dont use water in tubes, use light red oil for automatic transmission. Its much more controlable and visible.

Regards

Thanks Nino,
Yes, I see how that will work. At least it may give me sufficient time to pop the tube out before oil gets sucked into the cylinder. Smile
Yes it will work once the balance is close to being equal. Unfortunately in my case it too unbalanced to keep trying. As it turns out, someone from UK was selling a system so cheaply that I just couldn't pass up the offer Smile


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I reserve the right to voice my opinions on any subject known to man
Ned

05/1986 (K55) K100RS Motorsport (Europe), Production Code: 0503, 110k km, VIN:0140519 (SOLD)
1976 Honda Goldwing GL1000 (naked)
1997 BMW K1200RS red, VIN: WB10544A1VZA22667
    

15Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:10 pm

Comberjohn

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I have a set of Morgan Carbtune gauges (made in sunny Belfast) if you need a lend, Gerard.
I found that they worked well on my current K but could never get a good sync on my last K until I shimmed the valves.
Doesn't make a noticeable difference to normal riding but tick over is a lot smoother and regular.

http://www.johnsdrivingschool.co
    

16Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:10 pm

Inge K.

Inge K.
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A good, innovative and cheap solution, JAP. TB´s synchronization at idle 112350


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Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

17Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:36 pm

gmcq

gmcq
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@Comberjohn wrote:I have a set of Morgan Carbtune gauges (made in sunny Belfast) if you need a lend, Gerard.
I found that they worked well on my current K but could never get a good sync on my last K until I shimmed the valves.
Doesn't make a noticeable difference to normal riding but tick over is a lot smoother and regular.

Will take you up on the offer John when the weather improves. See you guys had a drop of snow.

Gerard


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1996 K1100LTIC 0235790
    

18Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:23 am

Rendrag

Rendrag
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Nicely done Smile I have a carbmate with the four taps to let you switch between 1-2,1-4,2-3,2-4, etc, bit more exxy than your really elegant solution! Wish I'd thought of that Smile

I'm curious.. What is BMW's deal with saying 'DO NOT ADJUST THE LINKAGES'? My K100 is WAY off synchronised when sitting at 3krpm, according to my carbmate. if it was a carb'd bike, i'd be adjusting it no problems at all. But folks seem to keep saying you need some kind of lab to do the TB's on the K?


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2000 VFR800
    

19Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:40 am

RicK G

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When you adjust the brass screws you adjust the air flow through a bypass and the butterflys should be closed.
When you open the throttle the bypass is effectivly out of action and the air is going through the main part of the TBs and that puts each end of the bypass at equal pressure so no air goes through it. The adjustment of the butterflys don't usually get far enough out to cause any problems and when the butterflys open the vac should be the same or close.
Even a crook coil can effect the air going through at speeds like 3000rpm at no load.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

20Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:07 am

Rendrag

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@Rick G wrote:Even a crook coil can effect the air going through at speeds like 3000rpm at no load.

Oh good point! I'll check it out on the weekend Very Happy


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2000 VFR800
    

21Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:09 am

klompy the grey brick

klompy the grey brick
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crook coil will just make it miss won't it?....


__________________________________________________
KKlompy TB´s synchronization at idle 2854237993
"Grace" 1984 K100RS Silver VIN 0019026 Mitt eine Staintune Zorst.
"Olivia" 1997 K1100LT Dark Grey VIN WB1052600W0237453.









Chassis number0019026
Vehicle code0503
SeriesK589
ModelK 100 RS 83 (0502 ( 0503 )
Body typeK 100 RS 83 (0502
Catalog modelECE
Production date1984 / 07
Engine0513)

TB´s synchronization at idle Au-log10


    

22Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:11 am

Rendrag

Rendrag
Silver member
Silver member
@Klompy the grey brick wrote:crook coil will just make it miss won't it?....
Good point, will it missing cause it to suck more air? Probably not! ??


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2000 VFR800
    

23Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:34 am

RicK G

RicK G
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It may make it miss but quite likely will cause imcomplete combustion and so the system may not scavenge properly or at all and more or less air in so less or more vac. You wont get a good pulse at the collector so that will affect the exaust dump etc etc


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1993 K1100 LT, 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki X 2 for now
    

24Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:31 pm

Themason

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Adjusting the throttle plates at home is eminently doable. If the mods wish to make it a stick so I don't have to write this down every six months as seems to be the current situation, I will share my experience. Btw, I learned at the elbow of a gent who built and tested the prototypes of the K100 and K75. His technique is sound.

In my experience, over time, the difference between TBs seems to grow, such that to achieve balance while one TB might have the bypass screw only 1/2 turn out from fully bottomed, another TB might have the bypass screw unscrewed a couple of turns from fully bottomed. This is due to mechanical wear of the throttle shaft and plates over time. It happens.

I have also found that a careful TB balance can reduce vibes at operating speeds. Just my experience. You might have a different opinion, but very often when the bike picks up a gritty vibe at moderate speed I put the carb sticks on the TB spouts and, sure enough, it is out of balance. Touching up the balance very often reduces the vibe.


__________________________________________________
I live in a parallel universe but have a vacation home in reality :arrow:

1984 K-100RS Alaska Blue w/Parelever and 16V wheels.

1984 K-100RS Metallic Madison stock

1986 R-80G/S w/1000 cc engine

2007 Harley Davidson Street Rod Mirage Orange w/XR1200 wheels, Race Tech, True Track, Works Performance shocks

2007 Harley Davidson Street Rod Vivid Black stock

1993-ish K-100/1100RT/LT hemaphrodite frankenbike thingy to be painted satin black from a rattle can eventually
    

25Back to top Go down   TB´s synchronization at idle Empty Re: TB´s synchronization at idle on Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:18 pm

Ned

Ned
Life time member
Life time member
@Rendrag wrote:Nicely done Smile I have a carbmate with the four taps to let you switch between 1-2,1-4,2-3,2-4, etc, bit more exxy than your really elegant solution! Wish I'd thought of that Smile

I'm curious.. What is BMW's deal with saying 'DO NOT ADJUST THE LINKAGES'?...

I have an opinion on this ... yes you need a flow bench to accurately set the butterflies and balance the unit, ie all 4 TBs are in synch before they bolt them on the bike. After that, small adjustments are made using vacuum adjustment/bypass screws to compensate for slight differences in performance between cylinders. Yes, they are all slightly different even at the factory assembly level.

The bench flow setting is ABSOLUTE and should not be messed with because if you can't balance the system using the carb balance procedure, something is wrong. After all two adjustments bring into play two variables.

Yes, u can adjust it all but all that you are doing is "balancing out" a problem that should be fixed not "tuned out". Just my 2c worth Smile


__________________________________________________
I reserve the right to voice my opinions on any subject known to man
Ned

05/1986 (K55) K100RS Motorsport (Europe), Production Code: 0503, 110k km, VIN:0140519 (SOLD)
1976 Honda Goldwing GL1000 (naked)
1997 BMW K1200RS red, VIN: WB10544A1VZA22667
    

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