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1Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Water/oil pump question on Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:06 am

dakelvinator

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Hi all,  hopefully you can see the pictures,  I found this puddle under my 1992 K1100LT which has 46k miles on it. So I need to replace the water/oil pump seals but do i need to replace the pump shaft as a given or just see what it looks like? and do I need to replace the radiator cap as a given? also could some recommend what type of gasket sealant to use? I am in the UK currently on lock down and not working so was hoping not to spend a small fortune! anyway thank you for your help in advance stay safe and don`t crack up if you cant ride! K.

    

2Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:17 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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You don't learn the condition of the shaft until you take it out. On early Ks replacing the shaft is an almost dead certainty. Not sure on the K1100.

An option is Motorworks and an exchange pump, they take a deposit refunded when they get your one so you don't end up off road. Other option is buy complete repair kit and if your shaft is good it can be sold on.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 37,190 miles
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles.
    

3Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:21 am

dakelvinator

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@92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:You don't learn the condition of the shaft until you take it out. On early Ks replacing the shaft is an almost dead certainty. Not sure on the K1100.

An option is Motorworks and an exchange pump, they take a deposit refunded when they get your one so you don't end up off road. Other option is buy complete repair kit and if your shaft is good it can be sold on.
Thanks Olaf
                The exchange may be the easiest option as i believe its tricky to fit the seals, I will contact Motorworks for a quote. K.

    

4Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:38 am

dakelvinator

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@dakelvinator wrote:
@92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:You don't learn the condition of the shaft until you take it out. On early Ks replacing the shaft is an almost dead certainty. Not sure on the K1100.

An option is Motorworks and an exchange pump, they take a deposit refunded when they get your one so you don't end up off road. Other option is buy complete repair kit and if your shaft is good it can be sold on.
Thanks Olaf
                The exchange may be the easiest option as i believe its tricky to fit the seals, I will contact Motorworks for a quote. K.
Hi Just had a chat with Motorworks sadly they don`t do the pump exchange anymore but they hope to be releasing a tool to sit the tricky seal soon. I will dismantle it and see if i need a new shaft who knows i might get lucky! K. 
Shamrock

    

5Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:29 am

Waz

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I just got this kit from K model BMW parts. New shaft, oil seal, water seal, o rings, spacer and impeller about $250 aus dollars.  At our exchange rate it could be worth buying in Australia and shipping to UK.Water/oil pump question  Thumbn18


__________________________________________________
1988 K100 RS
1999 K1200 RS
1987 K100RS DJP sidecar
    

6Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:54 am

dakelvinator

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@Waz wrote:I just got this kit from K model BMW parts. New shaft, oil seal, water seal, o rings, spacer and impeller about $250 aus dollars.  At our exchange rate it could be worth buying in Australia and shipping to UK.Water/oil pump question  Thumbn18
Thanks Ill look at that and see what the postage and time might be K.

    

7Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:59 pm

volador

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@Waz wrote:I just got this kit from K model BMW parts. New shaft, oil seal, water seal, o rings, spacer and impeller about $250 aus dollars.  At our exchange rate it could be worth buying in Australia and shipping to UK.

That's interesting never seen just the plain shaft, always a geared shaft as the complete part

Do you know the part number of plain shaft? You'll press old gear onto the new shaft?

Euro Moto Electrics USA   has complete rebuild kits

EME Pump Press Tool   if you don't have a matching socket or pipe or ...


__________________________________________________
1984 K100RS  1991 K100RS  Reap The Wild Wind... Ever Commute Is An Adventure
    

8Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:58 pm

Waz

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Yes I will have to press the old gear onto the new shaft. Graeme at K model beemer bits gets the shafts made locally.


__________________________________________________
1988 K100 RS
1999 K1200 RS
1987 K100RS DJP sidecar
    

9Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty A few more questions on Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:07 pm

dakelvinator

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Hi everyone 
                 I have removed and dismantled my water and oil pump. All came off ok just manky dirty! the weep hole was full of crud and plenty of muck.  I just wanted to check a few things maybe some of you can answer the following: 
1)  would blue RTV sealant be ok to use? i noted it on an old tread on from hear, this link -  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pro-Seal-Blue-RTV-Silicone-Sealant-Instant-Gasket-85G-Cars-Van-Bikes-Engines/261826107512?hash=item3cf60d5878:g:M4sAAOSwwPhWjRAl

2) where the red large "o ring" goes on the engine block do i put sealant around this area? and if so on the back of the pump not the engine block?

I am going to reuse the shaft as it looks and feels ok, i noticed in one of the YouTube videos it points out where if damaged it would be non reusable. I will be ordering the seals on Tuesday and hopefully be back together next weekend. thanks you for your help and advice yet again! K.

    

10Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:26 pm

volador

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BMW recommends 3-Bond Sealant 1084 when used recommend over-night cure

the blue RTV will do the job
a very thin bead around the red o-ring is not required but couldn't hurt

[url=http://www.kforum-tech.com/Downloads/K100-service-bulletins-and special-tools/bulletins.htm]Service Bulletin 2458[/url]

Water/oil pump question  Pumpe_10



Last edited by volador on Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________
1984 K100RS  1991 K100RS  Reap The Wild Wind... Ever Commute Is An Adventure
    

11Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:36 pm

Dai

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Threebond. Always Threebond. It out-performs any RTV sealant and costs around four times as much Very Happy


__________________________________________________
1983 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec, 1987 K100RT
Others...
1978 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, 1979 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,1993 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California
2020 Royal Enfield Bullet 500
    

12Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:24 pm

volador

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when using the 3-Bond 1084 apply a thin bead on surface
mate your surfaces and hand tighten fasteners
let cure for 8-10 hours or over night if possible
final torque fasteners after cure


__________________________________________________
1984 K100RS  1991 K100RS  Reap The Wild Wind... Ever Commute Is An Adventure
    

13Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:00 am

brickrider2

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I urge you to read this before you get too far into the oil/coolant pump work:    https://ibmwr.org/index.php/2003/05/01/water-oil-pump-rebuild/

At first sight, this seems to be straightforward and not too complicated.  Don't be fooled.  This is a tricky job. Even following closely all the steps and cautionary notes, it can go wrong.  I attempted this a number of times and never succeeded until I polished the shaft with extra fine paper and compound, followed by plenty of lube for the reassembly.  That seal is very easy to damage, and you'll never be certain if you've done it right and proper until you put it all back together and run the bike.  If you take on this work with new parts  that may be a great advantage for you.  I hope so. 
If you begin this job with only one new ceramic seal in hand, I will say you're incredibly optimistic.  If you manage to do it on the first try, you are a deft mechanic indeed.  Good luck.



Last edited by brickrider2 on Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total


__________________________________________________
1996 K1100LT
    

14Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:53 am

dakelvinator

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@brickrider2 wrote:I urge you to read this before you get too far into the oil/coolant pump work:    https://ibmwr.org/index.php/2003/05/01/water-oil-pump-rebuild/

At first sight, this seems to be straightforward and not too complicated.  Don't be fooled.  This is a tricky job. Even following closely all the steps and cautionary notes, it can go wrong.  I attempted this a number of times and never succeeded until I polished the shaft with extra fine paper and compound, followed by plenty of lube for the reassembly.  That seal is very easy to damage, and you'll never be certain if you've done it right and proper until you put it all back together and run the bike.  You're taking on this with new parts, so that may be a great advantage for you.  I hope so. 
If you begin this job with only one new ceramic seal in hand, I will say you're incredibly optimistic.  If you manage to do it on the first try, you are a deft mechanic indeed.  Good luck.
Thank you I had not seen this very useful articulate! ill reading this a few times over the next few days! K.

    

15Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:04 am

dakelvinator

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@Dai wrote:Threebond. Always Threebond. It out-performs any RTV sealant and costs around four times as much Very Happy
Thanks 3 bond it is then!, cant find 1084 version on ebay or amazon  the number 1104 does this mean something or is it just an updated version?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-X-TUBE-3-BOND-THREEBOND-GASKET-SEALER-1104-NEO-TY-FZ-XJ-R1-TZ-YZ-CBR600-NOW/362608317001?hash=item546d23d249:g:W8UAAOSw5S5Z0o5t

OR

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-BMW-Sealant-Silicone-Three-Bond-3Bond-30ml-1209-for-BMW-07589062376/283763831756?hash=item4211a473cc:g:UEYAAOSwCbJeMvqa

again the number 1209? 
 Thanks again i really appreciate the support on this form K.

    

16Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:35 am

volador

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the 1209

ORIGINAL BMW Sealant Silicone Three Bond 3Bond 30ml 1209 for BMW - 07589062376

in the US the model number was changed to 3Bond 1084 used to be 1194 then 1184


__________________________________________________
1984 K100RS  1991 K100RS  Reap The Wild Wind... Ever Commute Is An Adventure
    

17Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:01 am

dakelvinator

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@volador wrote:the 1209

ORIGINAL BMW Sealant Silicone Three Bond 3Bond 30ml 1209 for BMW - 07589062376

in the US the aftermarket model number was changed to 3Bond 1084
Thank you Volador I will get that one  Smile

    

18Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:07 am

volador

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here is the 3-bond 1184 on your side of the pond   eBay 3-Bond 1184

FYI from the 3-Bond web site

3-Bond Silicone sealant
1207, 1209, currently looks like '1211' Multipurpose low Viscosity silicone based liquid gasket. WHITE
Excellent oil resistance, used with solid sheet gaskets

vs.
3-Bond Solvent Liquid Gasket
'1184' Solvent based, Semi-drying, all purpose liquid gasket, oil resistant, chemical resistant. GRAY
3-Bond 1184 used to be 1194

either 1209 or 1184 will work
I have only used the 1184 solvent based for sealing oil sump cover and water/oil pump with over night cure


__________________________________________________
1984 K100RS  1991 K100RS  Reap The Wild Wind... Ever Commute Is An Adventure
    

19Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:55 am

dakelvinator

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@volador wrote:here is the 3-bond 1184 on your side of the pond   eBay 3-Bond 1184

FYI from the 3-Bond web site

3-Bond Silicone sealant
1207, 1209, currently looks like '1211' Multipurpose low Viscosity silicone based liquid gasket. WHITE
Excellent oil resistance, used with solid sheet gaskets

vs.
3-Bond Solvent Liquid Gasket
'1184' Solvent based, Semi-drying, all purpose liquid gasket, oil resistant, chemical resistant. GRAY
3-Bond 1184 used to be 1194

either 1209 or 1184 will work
I have only used the 1184 solvent based for sealing oil sump cover and water/oil pump with over night cure
Thanks for the Info Volador
                                       I have ordered the 1209 and am hoping to have everything i need by Friday, to put it back together at the weekend. I managed to remove the old seals off the pump yesterday. I just need to decrease the pump and tidy it up a little  for it to be ready for the new seals. Thanks again this forum is brilliant especially for daft people like me! K.

    

20Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Sun May 24, 2020 2:54 am

gabriel

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@brickrider2 wrote:I urge you to read this before you get too far into the oil/coolant pump work:    https://ibmwr.org/index.php/2003/05/01/water-oil-pump-rebuild/

At first sight, this seems to be straightforward and not too complicated.  Don't be fooled.  This is a tricky job. Even following closely all the steps and cautionary notes, it can go wrong.  I attempted this a number of times and never succeeded until I polished the shaft with extra fine paper and compound, followed by plenty of lube for the reassembly.  That seal is very easy to damage, and you'll never be certain if you've done it right and proper until you put it all back together and run the bike.  If you take on this work with new parts  that may be a great advantage for you.  I hope so. 
If you begin this job with only one new ceramic seal in hand, I will say you're incredibly optimistic.  If you manage to do it on the first try, you are a deft mechanic indeed.  Good luck.

I was very fortunate to get hold of a few of the old style water seals from Motobins many years ago. 
Like most k100 owners, the threaded section of the shaft snapped when I tried to loosen the nut.
Took it to a local bike shop and the owner used a lathe? To replace the threaded section.
He also polished the shaft..haha...
Took me all of five minutes to press the water seal into place using a socket.
I used three bond 1204? Not certain, and six years after no leaks.
Not certain if it was luck, but the old seals don’t have a ceramic component.
If you can get hold of the original water seals, it is possible to reuse the original shaft.
Take care and good luck.


__________________________________________________
;BMW; 1984 BMW k100..frame number 6228?
    

21Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Wed May 27, 2020 6:04 am

dakelvinator

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@gabriel wrote:
@brickrider2 wrote:I urge you to read this before you get too far into the oil/coolant pump work:    https://ibmwr.org/index.php/2003/05/01/water-oil-pump-rebuild/

At first sight, this seems to be straightforward and not too complicated.  Don't be fooled.  This is a tricky job. Even following closely all the steps and cautionary notes, it can go wrong.  I attempted this a number of times and never succeeded until I polished the shaft with extra fine paper and compound, followed by plenty of lube for the reassembly.  That seal is very easy to damage, and you'll never be certain if you've done it right and proper until you put it all back together and run the bike.  If you take on this work with new parts  that may be a great advantage for you.  I hope so. 
If you begin this job with only one new ceramic seal in hand, I will say you're incredibly optimistic.  If you manage to do it on the first try, you are a deft mechanic indeed.  Good luck.

I was very fortunate to get hold of a few of the old style water seals from Motobins many years ago. 
Like most k100 owners, the threaded section of the shaft snapped when I tried to loosen the nut.
Took it to a local bike shop and the owner used a lathe? To replace the threaded section.
He also polished the shaft..haha...
Took me all of five minutes to press the water seal into place using a socket.
I used three bond 1204? Not certain, and six years after no leaks.
Not certain if it was luck, but the old seals don’t have a ceramic component.
If you can get hold of the original water seals, it is possible to reuse the original shaft.
Take care and good luck.
Hi thankfully I managed it! I have now done about 150 miles over the last few weeks and so far so good. I did manage to reuse the old shaft and I used the ceramic seal. I used a prototype tool that has been developed by motobins which I think will be on sale soon, It worked very well however I did have a problem with the oil seal and ended up having to get a second set of seals (no fault of the tool just bad luck!) . When I first fitted the seals all went well and seated perfectly but when I went to put the shaft through it pop`ed out the oil seal! and I had no choice but to destroy both seals and start again! but second time around I fitted the oil seal and put the shaft through before fitting the ceramic seal (leaving enough clearance so no contact from the shaft and using 2 blocks of wood between the gear wheel and casing for support while seating the ceramic seal). I will try and post some pictures later hopefully that will help someone in the future. I was dreading this job! but thanks to the support and information on this forum its back together now  cheers  K.

    

22Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty original shaft on Wed May 27, 2020 10:35 am

dakelvinator

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24Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty ceramic seal and socked used to seat it on Wed May 27, 2020 10:40 am

dakelvinator

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25Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty blocks of wood to support shaft on Wed May 27, 2020 10:41 am

dakelvinator

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26Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty drawing up shaft into ceramic seal on Wed May 27, 2020 10:43 am

dakelvinator

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28Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty The story behind the pictures on Wed May 27, 2020 11:19 am

dakelvinator

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I just taught I would put some pictures up if it might help someone else. I did have one issue I fitted the seals oil and water and all went well! but when I put the shaft in it pop`ed out the oil seal!! Crying or Very sad. I could not find a way to refit it, as the ceramic/water seal was in the way! so I ended up having to destroy both seals and start again! I could find no fault I had fitted the oil seal well and it was a nice fit I just drew the conclusion it was bad luck, a faulty seal or I pushed the shaft too hard (yes there was oil on it). So second time around I fitted the oil seal then before fitting the ceramic seal I pushed the shaft through and spaced it out using wood (masking tape to hold it in place) under the drive cog to give enough space so that when I was seating the ceramic seal there was no contact. Once I had seated the ceramic seal using a socket I removed the wood blocks and I then drew up the shaft through the ceramic seal put all back together and refitted the pump using 3 Bond sealant as recommend. I was probably a little generous with the 3 bond but I was careful not to block anything. I had a problem with air in the system at first and a faulty temp sensor which caused me a lot of worry as it was giving false readings before it eventually gave up! I replaced the temp sensor and the gauge was reading normal! (The wrong temp sensor was fitted to the bike I think it was a K100 sensor and the bike is A K1100). So its been on about a month now and I have probably done 150 miles and so far so good fingers crossed it will stay good

    

29Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Wed May 27, 2020 7:45 pm

StandardK

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Great post, I must be honest & mention I too managed to pop out the oil seal when I installed the shaft - even though I’m 100% sure it was seated & the shaft was lubed. Second time around I applied a thin smear of Permatex 518 to the seal recess before pushing in a new oil seal to ensure it stayed there! 

I also used the Permatex 518 on the pump mounting faces rather than the normal dreibond/gasket goo kind of sealants etc as I find it (or Loctite 515) easier to work with and has short curing times. 

Regards

Dan

    

30Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Thu May 28, 2020 6:37 am

dakelvinator

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@StandardK wrote:Great post, I must be honest & mention I too managed to pop out the oil seal when I installed the shaft - even though I’m 100% sure it was seated & the shaft was lubed. Second time around I applied a thin smear of Permatex 518 to the seal recess before pushing in a new oil seal to ensure it stayed there! 

I also used the Permatex 518 on the pump mounting faces rather than the normal dreibond/gasket goo kind of sealants etc as I find it (or Loctite 515) easier to work with and has short curing times. 

Regards

Dan
Thanks I forgot to mention (and you reminded me StandardK) I did put a small bit of Hafixs professional glue on the oil seal recess the second time around. I did test the glue using the old oil seal just to see if it caused any chemical damage by gluing it to a piece of alloy over night. I only used the smallest amount just to give a little extra support while pushing the shaft through.

    

dakelvinator

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Oil Seal glue test and First oil seal in (the one that pop`ed out)



Last edited by dakelvinator on Thu May 28, 2020 7:02 am; edited 1 time in total

    

dakelvinator

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Pump supported by wood ready for water seal. Egg box reminder where water pump bolts go!

    

33Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:45 pm

moriarti

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Hi TO ALL Developed oil leak on casing booked it in my mechanic(i no longer have the facilities or the eyesight todo myself)Phonecall followed "When we took the cover off, the nut holding the impeller in place FELLOFF  Twisted Evil and bolt loose.
Resulting in shaft being goosed.Q Has anyone ever seen /heard of this before.
Extra info.58000 miles still as factory fitted,no nasty noises no heating problems
Do you think i have a claim under warranty  Water/oil pump question  44271


__________________________________________________
1984 k100 rs red/black VIN  0004449
    

34Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:09 pm

chris846

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Well if your 1984 bike is untouched from new, then it is more than likely that the nut (fitted to the early models) would have 'fallen off' when an attempt was made to remove it. What would have actually happened is that the threaded end of the shaft would have sheared off, quite easily, as the nut was turned. That's why the shaft was 'goosed' - it was broken as dismantling was attempted, which is pretty much the norm. Replacement shaft, new impeller, and a bolt to replace the nut (the end of the shaft now has a female thread) are required.
If it had really just 'fallen off' then you'd probs have heard some sort of rattle whilst it was running!


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Sometimes I'm not really Suzi Quatro.
    

35Back to top Go down   Water/oil pump question  Empty Re: Water/oil pump question on Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:05 pm

moriarti

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Thanks chris,my poor choice of wording good to know its common and not just my bike,I would have expected higher milage though Smile


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1984 k100 rs red/black VIN  0004449
    

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