BMW K bikes (Bricks)

You are not connected. Please login or register

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3

View previous topic View next topic Go down  Message [Page 3 of 3]


101Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:49 pm

Ed


Life time member
Life time member
it is possible Olaf, 
are there any suggestions of a starting point to trace earth wires ,do we start at the pump and work back. this would be my logic.
 Keith is going to examine the portal wiring schematics ,he said they are much better than the ones in the manual.

I am so glad this didn't occur on my recent rides. Klompys K pick up Hotline would certainly have received a call.

    

102Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:21 pm

duck

duck
Life time member
Life time member
When the ignition control unit senses from the Hall Effect sensor that the engine is turning it triggers the fuel pump relay by grounding a yellow/brown wire to the 85 terminal of the fuel pump relay. From the fuel pump relay a green/red wire sends power through Fuse #6 to the fuel pump via a green/white wire.

Check fuse #6.

Check that the 85 terminal of the fuel pump relay is being grounded when the start button is pressed and the engine is turning.

Swap the fuel pump relay with another relay to troubleshoot the relay.


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
98 Taxi Cab K1200RS
14 K1600GT
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

103Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:48 pm

kioolt

kioolt
Silver member
Silver member
92KK K100LT 193214 wrote:Here is a thought.

I am a bit green at this but I see the fuel pump is not pumping when the starter button is pressed. Let me see if this is logical, hopefully someone will either say its worth looking at or makes no sense.

Load shed relay cuts off certain functions as it disconnects their earths [lights etc] while the starter button is pressed.

Am I right in thinking the ECU controls the fuel pump by controlling the earth side rather than the live side?

Presumably in this case the fuel pump etc is not wired or earthed through the circuits cut off by the load shed relay.

But what if the wiring was modified so it was getting its power supply from a different source that's cut off by the load shed relay while the starter button is pressed?

Just my thoughts.
The load shed relay does not cut off ANYTHING that is needed to run or start the bike.  I would never suspect the LSR to be the cause of a bike not running.  I see the LSR blamed for so many things that it just won't cause.


__________________________________________________
2004 R1150RT 186,800 miles 
1991 K100LT 128,700 miles
1982 R100RT 106,900 miles
Total 422,400 BMW miles

AMA,BMWRA,BMWMOA


The cheapest thing on a BMW is the nut that connects the handlebars to the seat.
    

104Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:10 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

avatar
Life time member
Life time member
We are both saying the same thing.

My point is that if the wiring was modified by a PO and a new wire run from one of the circuits that is in fact cut off by the LSR when the starter is pressed then it could cause this. Otherwise it would not affect it as you correctly say.

I am sure at times some of us have modified wiring ourselves or acquired a K with modified wiring that has been done in a slightly dubious manner....such as my LT which was an ex police bike.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Alaska Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 105,200 miles
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 36,188  miles
    

105Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:15 pm

RicK G

RicK G
VIP
VIP
Considering that the bike was already a going concern and then this happened it's not likely that the problem is at the LSR but it sure is becoming an interesting thread.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 1998 K1100 LT, 1993 K75 RT, 1996 K75RT, 1986 K75 GS, 1979 Z1300 Kawasaki
    

106Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:06 am

K75cster

K75cster
Life time member
Life time member
Well its 2pm and i've finished looking at everythng in the portal, so armed with that info, we will have another look after we put it back the way it was when Ed parked it, without sufficient light to confirm coloured wires last night, (unfortunatly i turned up at dusk)and wishing to not leave without some checks done, we did a component swap for each unit to confirm if that would change things, It didnt, changed the r/h switch block the efi unit the EI Unit and finally the HES's. no change, So we put all the new items on and no change, That should eliinate the components, so was to go in and use  the daylight today to help check the relay's are back the way they should be and confirm the wiring continuity, colours and look for corrosion in connectors, Too late today to go over now and get back in time for school's closure so hope to drop by later. After I feed the munchkin


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

107Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:22 pm

Rob Roy Mcgregor

avatar
Silver member
Silver member
i take it your passed the throwing a hammer through a window shouting abuse at it and threatening to set it on fire and putting it on ebay stage then . . you cant be far off finding the problem now lets hope its just a bad conector for the sake of your sanity All the best BB  :cyclops:

    

108Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:36 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

avatar
Life time member
Life time member
When the ignition control unit senses from the Hall Effect sensor that the engine is turning it [1] triggers the fuel pump relay by [2] grounding a yellow/brown wire to the 85 terminal of the fuel pump relay. From the fuel pump relay  [3] a green/red wire sends power through Fuse #6 to the [4] fuel pump via a green/white wire.

Check fuse #6.

Check that the 85 terminal of the fuel pump relay is being grounded when the start button is pressed and the engine is turning.

 
Seems 4 items to be checked out but the thing is check the connectors too.

However as all does appear to be working after the button is released suggests the connection from the fuel pump relay to fuse 6 to the fuel pump is ok.

Does this point the finger at the signal from the Hall Effect Sensor up to the 85 terminal of the fuel pump relay?


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Alaska Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 105,200 miles
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 36,188  miles
    

109Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:32 pm

Rob Roy Mcgregor

avatar
Silver member
Silver member
lets start again your fuel pump is working you got a big fat blue spark and youv tried another relay ?

    

110Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:41 pm

Ed

Ed
Life time member
Life time member
I,ve rigged up some better lighting under the carport, so we should be able to work further into the evening.
currently mid way through house reno's ,
last month our electrician had an unfortunate work related accident , and passed away from his injuries .
he managed to complete 3/4 of the job , just some of the lighting in the external areas to finish off.

so just some minor hold ups . 
Bobbie , luckily I'm doing the reno's , that is where the hammer is hitting .
But in all honesty , I haven't hit that road , I 'm using a loaner K1100LT,during the Grovermobile downtime, so the K spirit still lives .
we'll be joining in with the Newcastle Pink Ribbon charity ride this weekend , on a K, so all is good.

the relay earth seems to be of interest amongst a few , so we can check there , now that we have light.idea2


__________________________________________________
1987 K100RT  Ex- police        
1989 K100LT  Ol' Blue and "Kart" the Kamper trailer.  now KAPUT . 
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 3 10_x_110
    

111Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:09 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

avatar
Life time member
Life time member
Never like to see someone passed away like that, always a sad thing.

You could be falling in love with that K1100LT......


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Alaska Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 105,200 miles
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 36,188  miles
    

112Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:20 am

K75cster

K75cster
Life time member
Life time member
GroverK's bike idles, didnt rev it because we only nipped up the allen bolts on the hall sensor cover and maybe even the Hes itself will check when more time permits. turned up today and brought my ignition switch with me, so unplugged Ed's ignition and hooked up mind easy to play now. Swapped the R/H switch block over for the one I had and brought Ed's with me to check here at home (the wires were melted in there for the lights) brought some tube spanners to be able to undo the relay housings so I can tuen em over and check for power, 1st check fuse 6 no power, reread drop sheet, and should be powered by pin 87from FI Relay so turned over said relay and no power, swapped horn over and power. So put dud relay in horn possie and phone rings must go to hospital, note to self must tell ed to get new one. Unable to run away with out trying so set bike back up so fuel is level and all good. then hit starter, bike idles into existence, turn off disc ign and put back to normal scribble a note and run away. Ed will catch up and play with the rt bike later after pink ribbon run. good hunting, dont forget new gasket for hall cover, or slip back together with a smear of rtv.


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

113Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:38 am

charlie99

charlie99
VIP
VIP
good work keith ...see it pays to work backwards huh ?


__________________________________________________
cheezy grin whilst riding, kinda bloke ....oh the joy !!!! ...... ( brick aviator )

'86 K100 RT..#0090401 ..."Gerty" ( Gertrude Von Clickandshift ) --------O%Oproblem starting - Page 3 Au-log10

'86 k100 rs.. #######..  "Fred " (f(rame) red ) ( Fredrick leichtundschnell ) - -
bits and pieces from many kind friends across the k100 world ...with many thanks ..
    

114Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:18 am

K75cster

K75cster
Life time member
Life time member
The real problem was not reading the portal page before going over to play the 1st time, not being able to read the cables unless in daylight dont help much, Not remembering what I had read over the last 12 to 18mths about the FI relay didnt help but miss determining the LSR as a possible cause slowed us down, deciding to change the electronic components 1 by 1 was just easier than seeing the wires, didnt change a thing, so decided to head back over and follow your test back from ignition post ment I also had read everything since that, Ed has suggested I read the portal page when I said the diagram in the back of the book was hopless to follow with their inability to cross a wire without showing it as a pass and not a joint, colour pics do wonders though. I'm so flammin happy Ed trusted me to follow up on this, Stoked I had success.


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

115Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:08 am

Ed

Ed
Life time member
Life time member
92KK K100LT 193214 wrote:

You could be falling in love with that K1100LT......
Olaf,I've been enjoying the 1100 lately , a pleasant bike to ride, bars are set a little lower than mine,everything works well, plenty of luggage,  really starting to grow on me.
a strong wind turbulence noise from the rear, not sure if it is the rear top box or the exhaust?
in general ticks most of the right boxes , but can't come to grips with moving away from my blue LT.

Duck made a brief mention of the FI relay yesterday morning, but I spent the evening rigging up lighting instead, in readiness for tonight,
 but the K fairies have already been today.

came home to a note on the dash
 " bike now runs, 
FI relay swapped to horn ( its a dud )   
no time to swap with RT relay"


Keith thanks mate , your help during this time of your own stresses has been immeasurably welcomed and appreciated .
. A thought for Keith and his family , they are coming out on the positive side of things.

if you scroll back to post #68 , the RT relay does not swap , as it is a different size , as mentioned when doing the LSR.
but silly me , Embarassed didn't think to swap the FI relay , as yet.problem starting - Page 3 652573 .
Keith it is I who is stoked , having had an opportunity to share the investigations and discoveries of the fuel and ignition system ,
 with yourself and Steve , he learnt a bit too.

 I still do not have a full understanding , but at least some knowledge. which is more than previously experienced.
I need to get the LT back together quick  , so the owner of the 1100LT gets some ride time this weekend.

Charlie , I need to pay more attention  , we thought we were following the correct line of investigation , but....
anyway the journey was worth it mate.
now how does the fairing go back on........


__________________________________________________
1987 K100RT  Ex- police        
1989 K100LT  Ol' Blue and "Kart" the Kamper trailer.  now KAPUT . 
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 3 10_x_110
    

116Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:20 am

K75cster

K75cster
Life time member
Life time member
All the blue bits stick together with black silastic Ooh did I say that? Once I had a chance to look at Inge k's posted Pic with names it was clear i was looking at the wrong relays, RickG had me using my thumb which highlighted the fuel pump working after the start button released, that with what 92kk was saying and Duck's plain plea to check fuse 6, that sent me back to Charlie99's earlier post. It works, home at present on cinder watch as some dope lit a fire up the old dump this arvo and its all raining down on us at the moment, got a full swimming pool if needed no shortage of water, that is if the helicopter firefighters dont pinch it first.


__________________________________________________
Keith - 1987 K75c with r100rt replica fairing and half of a 1984 K100rt 1992 K1100LT a blue one

The Clever are adept at extricating themselves from situations that the wise would have avoided from the outset - QUOTE from david Hillel in Out of the Earth.
    

117Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:27 am

Ed

Ed
Life time member
Life time member
was watching the smoke from Rutherford today, was wondering who was burning the sausages?
good to hear you are home , no more long trips into town for now . so take it easy for a while if you can.

just checking some threads, and found this, should I be worried?

Sorry to repeat myself with the same schematic, but if you look at the following picture, you will see the location and the number of pins in each relays.
The load shed relay and the horn relay can be swapped but the FI relay is different. I check my spare FI one and yes this is a DPST. The FI relay is #15 on the MaxBMW Website


Enlarge this image
problem starting - Page 3 Relay-tray


__________________________________________________
1987 K100RT  Ex- police        
1989 K100LT  Ol' Blue and "Kart" the Kamper trailer.  now KAPUT . 
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 3 10_x_110
    

118Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:31 am

Ed

Ed
Life time member
Life time member
I have a late start tomorrow , so I'll head into the auto electricians  , 
might be able to find something . are these ( FI) a common relay ?


__________________________________________________
1987 K100RT  Ex- police        
1989 K100LT  Ol' Blue and "Kart" the Kamper trailer.  now KAPUT . 
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 3 10_x_110
    

119Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:23 pm

Inge K.

Inge K.
VIP
VIP
groverK wrote:just checking some threads, and found this, should I be worried?

Sorry to repeat myself with the same schematic, but if you look at the following picture, you will see the location and the number of pins in each relays.
The load shed relay and the horn relay can be swapped but the FI relay is different.




On your RT which got the bigger relays, the FI relay is different from the others.

On your LT which have the smaller relays, LSR, FI and horn is identical.


__________________________________________________
Inge K.
K100RS -86. (first owner), K1100LTSE -94.
    

120Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:14 pm

duck

duck
Life time member
Life time member
groverK wrote:I have a late start tomorrow , so I'll head into the auto electricians  , 
might be able to find something . are these ( FI) a common relay ?
The FI relay has is somewhat unique - it has two 87 terminals.


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
98 Taxi Cab K1200RS
14 K1600GT
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

121Back to top Go down   problem starting - Page 3 Empty Re: problem starting on Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:27 pm

Ed

Ed
Life time member
Life time member
just looking at the relays from Bins and Works, 

the FI relay listed on Bins does not match in its terminal layout ,
problem starting - Page 3 7418610


 however the relay from Works is identical, and has a similar product No.  --59677.
problem starting - Page 3 7417410

so I am expecting that if nothing is available locally , Works is the next place to go.


__________________________________________________
1987 K100RT  Ex- police        
1989 K100LT  Ol' Blue and "Kart" the Kamper trailer.  now KAPUT . 
1993 K1100RS  0194321         Colour #690 Silk Blue  aka " Smurfette"
2018 Kart upgrade.
problem starting - Page 3 10_x_110
    

View previous topic View next topic Back to top  Message [Page 3 of 3]

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum