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1Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:22 am

BooG

BooG
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Turned on the K75S this morning...plenty of battery charge, but not turning over...happened once last week, but ended up starting after a rest. What's with that then...,??

    

2Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:58 am

duck

duck
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Does the neutral light come on it the cluster?

Have you tried pulling in the clutch?

If it's not turning over then the first thing I'd check is that power is getting to the black/yellow wire that triggers the starter relay when the start button is pressed.


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
98 Taxi Cab K1200RS
14 K1600GT
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

3Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:09 am

BooG

BooG
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Thanks for the pointers!
Yes, all the lights are on including neutral when key is turned. Pull clutch in, start, but no turnover. It does get power to the starter motor, but it feels like it gets "stuck"....I'll did out the multi meter!!!!!

    

4Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:20 am

duck

duck
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If you can hear the starter motor "trying" then it sounds like the starter relay is getting power and working.

You might want to consider cleaning or replacing the starter motor.
https://www.k100-forum.com/t2342-starter-motor-cleaning-tutorial


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT (x2)
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
98 Taxi Cab K1200RS
14 K1600GT
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

5Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:26 am

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
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Clean the motor's brushes.  They might need replacement.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS
1988 K100RS SE

Past:
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

6Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:04 am

moriarti

moriarti
Gold member
Gold member
double check the EARTH near the starter. idea2


__________________________________________________
1984 k100 rs red/black VIN  0004449
    

7Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:22 pm

Snod Blatter

Snod Blatter
Life time member
Life time member
Try turning the motor slightly by moving the bike in gear, sometimes the starter seems to have little dead zones. Mine's done it a couple of times, really weird!


__________________________________________________
1989 K100RS SE ABS 8v  VIN: 0149214
Others: 1.5 x Honda CBX250RS-E, '94 CB250, '95 TRX850, '16 Z250SL
http://justbikethings.blogspot.co.uk/
    

8Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:33 pm

MartinW

MartinW
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As per .75 clean and check the starter brushes.
Regards Martin.


__________________________________________________
K75s Hybrid
    

9Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:58 pm

volador

volador
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spin the starter backwards on a regular basis to keep the brushes clean

1-sit on your moto in 3nd gear or higher with key off...
2-roll backwards and pop the clutch...
3-repeat 4 or 5 times...
4-do this a few times a year...


__________________________________________________
1984 K100RS  1991 K100RS  Reap The Wild Wind... Ever Commute Is An Adventure
    

10Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:32 pm

MartinW

MartinW
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The roll back brush cleaning works to a point, but eventually you'll need to pull it apart and clean it properly. It takes around about an hour to do it and you get the added benefit of checking the brush length.
Regards Martin.


__________________________________________________
K75s Hybrid
    

11Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:23 pm

tinyspuds

tinyspuds
Life time member
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I’ve just taken mine out for a clean and re-brush - it was mucky and the brushes were just on their wear limit - so glad I did it and it couldn’t have been easier.

A little wet and dry on the gearbox mounts is prudent and I also added a secondary earthing wire while I was there.


__________________________________________________
1985 BMW K100RT + Hedingham HUB and LL’s. VIN 0028106. (Not blind to the irony of an April 1 production date).
1954 Royal Enfield 350 Bullet. Original.
    

12Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:49 pm

MartinW

MartinW
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A bit of Kopper Kote around where the starter housing slides into the bell housing is prudent. A mate had to slide hammer his out due to corrosion.
Regards Martin.


__________________________________________________
K75s Hybrid
    

13Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:23 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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@MartinW wrote:A bit of Kopper Kote around where the starter housing slides into the bell housing is prudent. A mate had to slide hammer his out due to corrosion.
Regards Martin.
I had the same issue when I took starter off the RT first time.

As for brushes, brush set is available and is cheap. Anyone having a few Ks its worth keeping on in the shed....


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Alaska Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 105,200 miles
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 36,188  miles
    

14Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:34 am

BooG

BooG
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Platinum member
Charged battery, and cleaned out starter motor. I did the brushes last year, so it was in good condition inside.
Starter relay next on my list....

    

15Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:38 pm

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
Opened starter relay...cleaned the contacts...put everything back together....tried starting...initially, the same mild kind of klunk, but then, turned over and started! Needed a bit of cranking to get going. It’s been so damp here....moisture in everything...so I wonder if that was it......I’ll keep an eye on it.....nothing I hate more than an intermittent electrical fault!!!!!

    

16Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:51 am

BooG

BooG
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Yep...there it is again!!!Lots of rain...damp...no start!! 61740

    

17Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:52 pm

BooG

BooG
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I haven’t checked yet, but I’m wondering if the alternator brushes may be the cause of this??

    

18Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:18 pm

Dai

Dai
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Life time member
n/m. The idiot behind this keyboard should try reading what you've written. Lots of rain...damp...no start!! 167893


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec, '87 K100RT
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California
    

19Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:14 am

BooG

BooG
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So, what I have is:
1) 12.47 volts at the battery (Odessey pc680)
2) Turn key to on position, and all dash lights come on as they should. Clutch in, push starter, and then the lights cut, (so load shed must be working), but the engine does not turn over. Lots of clicks from relays etc.
3) My logic to this moment is:
- there is enough power in the battery.
- power seems to be getting through to the starter, which has been cleaned, and the brushes checked.
- Rocking bike back and forth in gear, and then attempting start makes no difference.
- The starter switch seems to be doing its job.

4) Questions are: is the voltage regulator to blame? Can't test this till I'm running again. Is the battery suspect? I'll take it out again and charge for a while and see if that makes any difference.

Wisdom welcomed, and I also acknowledge that this post should be in the electrical forum slot! Rolling Eyes

    

20Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:09 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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12.47 too low for the battery....

Next time you are at it......

1: record meter reading at rest before you try starting.
2: record meter reading when starter button is pressed.
3: record meter reading when bike is running. 

Post them up but my thought is battery issue, its possibly being caused by poor charging OR a parasitic drain/short.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Alaska Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 105,200 miles
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 36,188  miles
    

21Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:27 am

BooG

BooG
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Platinum member
Alternator brushes maybe?
Can I jump start from a slave battery to test this?

    

22Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:58 am

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
@BooG wrote:Can I jump start from a slave battery to test this?
I'd follow Olaf's suggestion in Post #20 on this. It's a simple test series to diagnose a common fault


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 77,000 miles
Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Usa-lo10
    

23Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:36 am

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
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Lots of rain...damp...no start!! 259495 
A "fully" charged 12V battery that is more than a year old with less than 12.8VDC on it is frigging bad and needs to be replaced! 

A battery with 12.47V on it when resting will not reliably start an engine and will sooner or later need replacing.  Why are you wasting your time with this battery?  Get a good one before doing anything else to remove electrical power issues from your problem.

Even if the problem is in the charging system, the fact it is not fully charging the battery will result in irreversible damage to the battery's ability to get a good charge that will properly start and run the engine.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS
1988 K100RS SE

Past:
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

24Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:25 pm

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
So:
12.9v at rest...
7.2v when switch is pushed (under load)
starter does not turn over.

I put the meter on the starter motor live and tested it under load, and it only read 4v..!
So, given that most people are inclined towards the battery....its another Odessey PC680 tomorrow!
All other functions seem fine: good lights/horn OK, etc....just won't crank!

    

25Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:29 pm

BooG

BooG
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I hope you have some hair left.... point 75? Lots of rain...damp...no start!! 694830

    

26Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:37 pm

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
Life time member
Cue ball.

I assume you are reading at the battery terminals.  Battery voltage on my bikes drops to about 10 VDC when the starter is cranking.  The voltage you are reading tells me the plates in your battery are toast.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS
1988 K100RS SE

Past:
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

27Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:11 pm

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
Thanks for the help...I'll sort a new pc680 tomorrow and see what happens. Luckily there is a battery warehouse in Enfield, not far from me (Hackney), so I'll pick one up in the morning (£100)...! Not actually that bad for a pc680..

    

28Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:40 pm

Dai

Dai
Life time member
Life time member
If you can't get an Odyssey for any reason then a Motobatt AGM is the next best thing.


__________________________________________________
'83 K100 upgraded to K100RS spec, '87 K100RT
Others...
'78 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, '79 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,'93 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California
    

29Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:30 pm

BooG

BooG
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Platinum member
Well, she's up and running, and the odyssey is cranking that engine like it should! Thanks guys....I'm never looking to spend £100 on a fix, but sometimes you just have to suck it up and go there!! I love the forum!!
It was intermittent, but I checked the battery terminals at 2000 rpm and it was putting out about 13.8v, so alternator seems OK as well. I'll keep y'all posted! Very Happy

    

30Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:07 pm

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
Life time member
cheers


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS
1988 K100RS SE

Past:
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

31Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:20 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

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@BooG wrote:Thanks for the help...I'll sort a new pc680 tomorrow and see what happens. Luckily there is a battery warehouse in Enfield, not far from me (Hackney), so I'll pick one up in the morning (£100)...! Not actually that bad for a pc680..
On Friday I found that's whats in my K1100LT!


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Alaska Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 105,200 miles
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 36,188  miles
    

32Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Again!!! on Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:18 am

BooG

BooG
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Platinum member
Well now....this morning I had that same starting issue! The new Odyssey is only a few weeks old! Evil or Very Mad
Gonna change the alternator brushes out. The logic is:
The issue disappeared with the new battery initially. 
Assuming the new battery is sound, then the alternator may not be throwing enough charge into the battery...although when I put the meter on it a few weeks back, it was charging 14v+ when revved. 
I'll charge up and report back.

    

33Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:43 am

mike d

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If the alternator is working and you get good DC volts across the battery, then have you check for parasitic drain when the engine is switched off?

It could be that it is draining the battery a bit overnight, causing the poor starting in the morning.

Mike

    

34Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:19 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

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@mike d wrote:If the alternator is working and you get good DC volts across the battery, then have you check for parasitic drain when the engine is switched off?

It could be that it is draining the battery a bit overnight, causing the poor starting in the morning.

Mike
Put a meter on it, it will show if you have a parasitic drain.

If you have, pull the fuses one at a time and watch what happens as you take out each fuse. 

If you still have a parasitic drain pull the relays one at a time carefully watching what happens as you pull each relay.

That will tell you what circuit is your problem. Or it if its a faulty relay.

If you still have a parasitic drain pull/disconnect the Regulator...it can also cause one.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Alaska Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 105,200 miles
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 36,188  miles
    

35Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:07 pm

volador

volador
Life time member
Life time member
I had a wonky voltage regulator that left me stranded and bump starting the moto until changed


__________________________________________________
1984 K100RS  1991 K100RS  Reap The Wild Wind... Ever Commute Is An Adventure
    

36Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:59 am

BooG

BooG
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13.2 volts....still not turning over! Power to the starter motor, but just won't spin that sucker...sort of clunks like it originally did. So: enough juice in the battery...power all the way up to the starter motor..but not turning over.....then it has to be the starter motor?? Was fine for a few weeks up till yesterday! Doing my head in...!

    

37Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:02 am

BooG

BooG
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Platinum member
or...load shed relay not shutting off properly: so not enough voltage is reaching the starter?? Question

    

38Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:12 am

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
Swapped the horn and load shed, but it didn't make any difference. The headlight shuts off when the ignition is pressed so I thought that was OK.....
Can I test the starter by removing it and connecting it directly to the battery to see if it spins?

    

39Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:59 am

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
Life time member
Yes, you can bench test it.  Just have a good grip on it when you apply the power.  They have a lot of torque.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS
1988 K100RS SE

Past:
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

40Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:58 am

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
I am correct in thinking I can test the starter in situ by connecting the bolted contacts at the starter relay. The starter should spin??

    

41Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:26 am

BooG

BooG
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Platinum member
Starter motor is a good’un!! Bench tested, and spun with no issues, nice and powerful. The battery I used was at 12.95v.
So...next suspect is.....

    

42Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:03 am

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
@BooG wrote:So...next suspect is.....
If I've understood your descriptions correctly, then according the schematic near the start of the troubleshooting chart on the tech page , it might be the starter relay, a connection to the starter relay or starter, a connection to the ignition control unit, or the control unit itself. Pick one of those to check. Smile



Last edited by Laitch on Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:00 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Corrected control unit id.)


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 77,000 miles
Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Usa-lo10
    

43Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:35 am

BooG

BooG
Platinum member
Platinum member
Ok...I can test the starter relay by bypassing it and connecting the two bolted connectors across. This should turn the starter and if it does work...dodgy relay..........correct?

    

44Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:54 pm

mike d

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Following on from Laitch's pointer...…..

1. You could remove the start and load shed relays.
2. Using a test lead, connect one end to the battery +ve and with the other end touch terminal 87 of the relay socket.

This should apply a +12 v to the starter motor circuit. Does the motor turn over?

If not you need to look at the starter motor end.

If yes, the fault is further upstream.

Mike

    

45Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:49 pm

BooG

BooG
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Platinum member
OK...so...we have a result! 
I have to say that the info and pointers given in response to this have been great!
Having bench tested the starter, and even checking that the engine hadn't seized (?), I took to reading the EFi/Electronic ignition troubleshooter article by Crazy Frog, whilst having "parasitic drain" and "damp mornings" in my brain.
Towards the end of the troubleshooter, it directs that if there is power from the battery to the starter relay, then check the lead from the battery to the relay. So I did. Off with the tank, and down into the relay box. Removed starter relay and traced back along the red lead. Then I spotted it....an exposed piece of wire showing signs of corrosion around what looked like  "melted" red insulator. It's where all the red wires meet as they enter the bottom of the relay box. Its funny how all of a sudden, the stars align, and all the reasons for the problem seem obvious: cold and damp mornings getting to exposed wire: parasitic drain thru the shorting out: battery loosing a bit of charge etc etc!! I changed the brushes in the alternator just in case.
Anyway, I finished just before dark, so hopefully I'll get to test her out tomorrow morning!
I should go over the loom and do the cleaning job!!
Thanks chaps...you rock my world!
cheers

    

46Back to top Go down   Lots of rain...damp...no start!! Empty Re: Lots of rain...damp...no start!! on Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:24 pm

mike d

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Good find!  cheers .

Sounds like you may have headed off a potential electrical fire on the bike.

Mike

    

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