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1Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Starter or Sprag clutch failure Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:35 pm

Danish biker

Danish biker
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I’m on my second engine (first one blew up last spring) after taking advice to use carborator cleaner and nor WD40, I suspect (my bad).

Any way both of them has had the exact same problem.

Sometimes when pushing the starter, the starter spins, and spins, and spins, and spins but never engages and turns the engine.

Every time I do the WD40 job, that is on this forum and a solution to sprag clutch problems.

How ever I’m not sure it actually is a sprag clutch problem.

Yesterday (after the starter just spun) I took out the starter. Oh by the way the starter I refurbished by a professional shop. The gear that the starter turns I only supposed to go anti clockwise but it could turn both ways.

After doing the WD40 job (taking crankshaft cover off, and spraying WD40 into the 3 small holes in the axle closed to the sprang clutch, and tapping between the gear teeth with a large flat screwdriver) the gear that the starter turns, could only move anti clockwise, as it is supposed to.

After this the starter turns the gear and “what ever” (probably sprag clutch) engages the engine and the brick starts.

I know oil is an issue.

I know power is an issue.

I know starter is an issue.

I know sprang clutch is an issue.

I’ve tried several oils (today Spectro MC 4 oil after watching a Chris Harris YouTube movie).

Battery is ok.

Starter is as mentioned refurbished.

Former owner claims sprag clutch is ok.

My question is why (what) do the gear, that the gear on the starter turns move both ways (what is causing this)?


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

2Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Sprag Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:07 pm

daveyson

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Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Img_2033
Pushing a sprag in one direction increases the clearance so that it can spin. Pushing in the opposite direction eliminates any clearance and locks it. 

If the surfaces are too slippery it could just spin. If the sprags are worn out there might be clearance in both directions. Sludge could also result in slipping, but probably not in this case. With a worn clutch, I guess anything that helps for a quick start is important, say a good battery, bike warm, stuff like that.

Normally a bike only takes about one second to start. Yours has had a lot more use and abuse than normal, so would be more worn than usual (I remember your sprag thread) 

I would use Dino oil in this case, since you still have a problem, maybe even a bit thicker. I'd get oil without friction reducing additives, don't know if you can still get that though.

The numbers in the drawing I just made up as an example. If the sprag is less than 50, it will spin both ways.


__________________________________________________
11/1985 bmw k100rt (late model)  Vin. 0090567
 ~120,000 km
    

Point-Seven-five

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The gear on the starter is connected to the armature of the motor.  There is nothing that will prevent the armature from turning in both directions.  The sprag is the only part of the starter gear train that is directional.

I have had some success with using Shell Rotella T6 full synthetic 15W40 oil.  It is designed for diesels, but approved for gasoline engines as well.  If you read the reviews of this stuff, you'll see that lots of motorcyclists are using it.

Being designed for heavy duty diesel engines, the additive package has more detergent than oils designed for gasoline engines.  Running this stuff for a couple years eliminated the sprag issue I had with one of my bikes.  One other thing I did was to put a can of Seafoam into the oil a couple days before the annual oil change.  I didn't want it in the engine for more than a couple hundred miles.  The idea is to clean out any junk that may be stopping the sprags from flopping over to lock the starter to the engine.  I hope it's also cleaning out some of the accumulated dirt in the engine before it can get into the sprag.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS


Past:
1988 K100RS SE
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

Danish biker

Danish biker
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daveyson wrote:Normally a bike only takes about one second to start. Yours has had a lot more use and abuse than normal, so would be more worn than usual (I remember your sprag thread) 
 This is a “new” engine


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

5Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Sprag Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:47 am

daveyson

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When you say the former owner claimed the sprag is OK, that made me think it's second hand. Even a new one that slips a lot will soon have more wear than normal. 

You have a few options now to consider. I'd consider the easy ones first, that don't require dismantling the engine.


__________________________________________________
11/1985 bmw k100rt (late model)  Vin. 0090567
 ~120,000 km
    

Danish biker

Danish biker
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daveyson wrote:I'd consider the easy ones first, that don't require dismantling the engine.

Me too Starter or Sprag clutch failure  1f604  Starter or Sprag clutch failure  1f604 

I did the WD 40 watch link I’ll post in another replay. 

The former owner is the guy who road 500.000 on a K1 and used to work for BMW in Germany so I’m assuming he knew what he was talking about when I asked about the sprang clutch (but of course one never know).

What’s the probability of me getting stuck with exact same problems in two different engines. 

I refilled Spectro MC4 for but have no idea if this is a better then all the other oils I’ve tried. The BMW guru Chris Harris mentioned it as a good choice.


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

7Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:00 am

Danish biker

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Point-Seven-five wrote:The gear on the starter is connected to the armature of the motor.  There is nothing that will prevent the armature from turning in both directions.  The sprag is the only part of the starter gear train that is directional.

Sorry for being confused. 

Before fixing it (doing the WD40 job) I took out the starter and I could move the armature (gear that the starter turns) both ways. And the bike wouldn’t start. 

Then I did the WD40 job and now the armature (gear) would/could only move anti clockwise, and after installing the starter the bike would start. 

So I’m very confused about the fact that the armature being able to move both clockwise and anti clockwise should be a good thing. 

Please watch this:

https://youtu.be/I51Y8KtwAUU


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You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

8Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Sprag Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:12 am

daveyson

daveyson
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Although starter motors in cars usually have a clutch,  they don't with bricks, the clutch is in the engine.

The chance that you would have two bricks with this problem is very small, but I think you used oil with nano additives which I think was the problem. You noticed an immediate improvement when you changed the oil. All that slipping might have increased the wear. I would try to avoid friction modifiers in oil when you have a history of a slipping clutch. Reducing friction is generally a good idea, but a sprag clutch needs friction to work well.

I'd try a diesel oil for its detergent additives, like p75 says,  or plain old Dino Castrol gtx 20w50.


A sprag clutch has very smooth metal surfaces, so friction is important.


__________________________________________________
11/1985 bmw k100rt (late model)  Vin. 0090567
 ~120,000 km
    

9Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:00 am

Point-Seven-five

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A big +1 on not using friction modifiers in the engine! My sprag problems were the result of using a molybdenum fortified assembly lube when I rebuilt the head on my K100RS. That I used it a bit extravagantly didn't help either. Avoid using anything in your oil.

You need a little bit of "stiction" between the pawls and the ring in the sprag for it to work properly.

If you want to use friction modifiers like Moly additives, put them in the transmission and the final drive. They help those components run cooler, and the shifting becomes a lot easier as well.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS


Past:
1988 K100RS SE
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

10Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Sprag Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:10 am

daveyson

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Just watched the above video. When he sprays brake cleaner (or Carby) it's like a detergent that removes the oil and makes it dry,  improving friction.  If the oil is too slippery, the clutch slips again. Maybe it's also cleaning gunk out. I'd be draining the oil afterwards, and looking for metal pieces in the sump oil.


__________________________________________________
11/1985 bmw k100rt (late model)  Vin. 0090567
 ~120,000 km
    

11Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:15 am

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
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Looked like he was using Throttle Body and Carb Cleaner. Yes, I suspect that flushing the dirt AND the lubricant out will help the sprag engage.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS


Past:
1988 K100RS SE
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

12Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm

Danish biker

Danish biker
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Point-Seven-five wrote:You need a little bit of "stiction" between the pawls and the ring in the sprag for it to work properly.  

But please, please advice me why you claim the gear that the starter turns inside the engine should be able to move both clockwise and anti clockwise?????

From the posted YouTube Video and the fact that when my starter actually engages the clutch (or what ever), and the bike will start, it can ONLY move anti clockwise.

If it can move both ways nothing engages but the starter just spins, and spins, and spins.

This gear is the explanation of what ever is wrong.

If it moves both ways something is wrong.

If it only moves anti clockwise everything is peachy.

I need to understand your comments about the armature (gear) should move both ways. I’m struggling to understand what it is I’m up against. 

OH AND BY THE WAY to all of you, thank you for answering.

Any comments on the Spectro MC4 oil?


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

13Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:54 pm

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
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When you said the starter gear, I understood it as the gear at the front of the starter motor. The gear you were referring to is what I regard as the sprag gear.

Yes, that gear should only move freely in one direction if the sprag clutch is working properly.

No comment on the Spectro oil. I just use the readily available oil that I can get at a good price. The Shell Rotella at $21 a gallon is one of the lowest priced high quality major brand synthetic oils available. My current favorite oil is Quaker State Ultimate Durability full synthetic 10W30 which sells for $20 for a 5 quart jug. It is a very highly rated oil as far as film strength and high temperature stability. Walmart sells it so it is readily available pretty much everywhere in the U.S.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS


Past:
1988 K100RS SE
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

14Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:09 pm

Danish biker

Danish biker
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Point-Seven-five wrote:When you said the starter gear, I understood it as the gear at the front of the starter motor.  The gear you were referring to is what I regard as the sprag gear.  

Yes, that gear should only move freely in one direction if the sprag clutch is working properly.  

No comment on the Spectro oil.  I just use the readily available oil that I can get at a good price.  The Shell Rotella at $21 a gallon is one of the lowest priced high quality major brand synthetic oils available.   My current favorite oil is Quaker State Ultimate Durability full synthetic 10W30 which sells for $20 for a 5 quart jug.  It is a very highly rated oil as far as film strength and high temperature stability.   Walmart sells it so it is readily available pretty much everywhere in the U.S.

Thanks i was just seeing a new issue Mad 

I wish I could look inside the engine and see what is wrong, when the gear moves both ways. This is the reason for “what ever is wrong”.

Here (Denmark) everybody swears to full synthetic Castrop oil, I’ll probably find a Diesel engine oil What a Face


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

15Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:47 pm

Laitch

Laitch
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Point-Seven-five wrote:Looked like he was using Throttle Body and Carb Cleaner. 
daveyson wrote:When he sprays brake cleaner (or Carby) 
Danish Biker seems to believe that using cleaners like these (if these were the volatile versions) caused his engine to blow up. Starter or Sprag clutch failure  177381

Anyway, I'm glad this thread is still going because I've been eager to pound on my keyboard—heedless of output accuracy—rather than stack firewood.   Smile

Using the guidance of the beloved American spiritual Dem Bones—"the toe bone connected to the foot bone, the foot bone connected to the heel bone, the heel bone connected to the ankle bone, etc. . . .", I’m offering up this coffee-driven analysis of Spragland. Danish Biker, by now, you might know all this stuff already but that won't stop me. It's been fun for me regardless of its efficacy for anyone else.  cheers A bonus is that BMW has created confusion in the labeling of the auxiliary shaft gear wheel and the freewheel gear wheel in fiche and manual diagrams, making the diagrams at variance with each other. That probably hasn't affected billing.cheers  One last point: when the direction clockwise is indicated, it is only helpful if you describe from which direction you are looking at the clock—the front of the engine or the rear of the engine.

Now then, here is an explanation, DB.

The splines on the starter motor shaft engage with a gear on the countershaft. The countershaft gear can be moved somewhat in either direction until the starter motor has power then it moves in only one direction—the direction opposite of the starter shaft’s rotation. 

The countershaft gear engages with the freewheel gear on the auxiliary shaft. The auxiliary shaft passes through the hub of the freewheel but the freewheel is not fixed to the auxiliary shaft. The sprag clutch assembly is bolted to the rearward side of the auxiliary shaft gear. The freewheel gear has a hub extending from its forward side into the sprag clutch assembly on the rearward side auxiliary shaft gear. The freewheel gear hub is surrounded by the sprags within the sprag clutch assembly. The auxiliary shaft rotates in the direction opposite of the countershaft gear's rotation.

When the sprags are free to move because they are not stopped by residue—and if they are not excessively worn—they will grip freewheel gear hub when it is rotated in the correct direction by the countershaft. After being gripped by the sprags, the freewheel gear is able to rotate the auxiliary gear that is bolted to the sprag clutch assembly. The auxiliary gear then rotates the crankshaft via the crankshaft gear. The crankshaft rotates in the direction opposite of the auxiliary gear’s rotation.

When the engine starts operating, the crankshaft rotates the auxiliary shaft faster than the starter’s speed rotates it, so the sprags in the sprag clutch housing release their grip on the freewheel gear’s hub. At the same time, the electronic system shuts down the starter motor when engine speed signals the electronic control unit that engine operation is underway. At that moment, force is no long being applied to the freewheel gear because the sprags have released their grip on it and the starter has stopped rotating the countershaft gear. The freewheel gear now floats on the rotating auxiliary shaft while the auxiliary shaft is powering the alternator.

It’s a wonderful world in there! 

From your description, Danish Biker, unless the sprags in the sprag clutch assembly have been recently cleaned, they are unable to grip the freewheel gear’s hub so the freewheel cannot rotate the auxiliary gear; therefore, the auxiliary gear will not rotate the crankshaft. The freewheel just spins on the auxiliary shaft. Treating the sprags with WD40 has not resulted in reliable performance. Sometimes the sprag clutch works after treatment but eventually it does not work and needs to be sprayed again. The sprags are either worn down, or gummed up to the extent that bathing them in WD40 or anything else won’t help them grip the freewheel gear reliably. It's not surprising to me that two used engines would have this condition because it isn't an uncommon condition in worn or neglected engines.

What you are doing now with the sprag clutch is similar to oiling the bolt action of a malfunctioning,  battered duty rifle rather than stripping the action from the rifle, cleaning off the powder residue and debris, oiling it then reassembling it. 

It seems to me you need to inspect the sprag clutch assembly to determine if the sprags are worn beyond cleaning or need a complete cleaning, but you could try following Point-Seven-five’s recommendation and rely on fate, karma, magic or chemical science to pull you through and not leave you standing on a cement floor surrounded by wrenches, fasteners, rags, fluid pans and dreams of overseeing your crew of longship oarsmen in a quest for riches in unconquered lands.

Starter or Sprag clutch failure  The_sh10


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 81,000 miles
Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Usa-lo10
    

16Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:57 pm

Danish biker

Danish biker
Platinum member
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J
Laitch wrote:
Point-Seven-five wrote:Looked like he was using Throttle Body and Carb Cleaner. 
daveyson wrote:When he sprays brake cleaner (or Carby) 
Danish Biker seems to believe that using cleaners like these (if these were the volatile versions) caused his engine to blow up. Starter or Sprag clutch failure  177381

First of all thank you for your post. My technical English is not the best so I’ll need much more time to understand your post.

How ever one comment.

I always have used WD40 but last time I used carb cleaner, AND I DIN’T DRAIN (AND CHANGE) THE OIL BEFORE RIDING! So my bad the engine blew up doing 170 km.

This is all history and I’ve learned how to take off a engine and put on another.

However I have still no idea why my starter is just spinning, and spinning, and spinning (second engine now).

Actually I was happy to get another engine because I was wildly stressed every time I had to push my starter. Never knew if I got home or had to leave the bike at the local grocery store (or where ever).

Now I’m faceing the exact same problem and I have still no idea why.

Aparetly only few other Brickriders have had this problem, and therefor there is not much knowledge on this issue.

Everyone has an opinion but when the day is over I’m left even more confused (my lack of technical English doesn’t make it better).

But I apreseate every replay and I don’t mean any disrespect I just need to find the person who has gone through this and actually found the reason for the problem (and can explain it to a Amateure like me).

Laitch

One last point: when the direction clockwise is indicated, it is only helpful if you describe from which direction you are looking at the clock—the front of the engine or the rear of the engine. 

ALWAYS state direction, when it concerns a motorcycle, from when you are sitting on it. Very Happy

I’m looking from the rear (only way I can look into the hole, where the starter goes into  Very Happy ), but the point should be: “It’s only supposed to move one way, NOT both directions!”  Cool

Just like the YouTube link shows, but I guess you haven’t gotten round to watching it yet.


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

17Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:06 pm

Laitch

Laitch
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Danish biker wrote:. . . I just need to find the person who has gone through this and actually found the reason for the problem (and can explain it to a Amateure like me).
First of all, a person doesn't need to have had a broken leg to be able to splint a broken leg. The same goes for repairing a sprag clutch.

Secondly, you've already found people who know the reason for the problem you're describing. Many of us already have learned through personal experience, study and or the experience of others and have tried to explain it to you. So read all the posts again and be willing to get some help in translation. The diagram is as clear as I can make it.

Thirdly, the starter motor in your moto is spinning because the sprag clutch is too dirty or worn to work correctly by just spraying cleaner on it. The gear is moving in both directions for the same reason.

Lastly, what is in the video is what you have already been told several times by several people. In fact—to your credit—you described it accurately. The sprags in your sprag clutch are stuck. Because they are stuck, the gear will rotate in both directions and the starter will just spin. If the sprags weren't stuck, the gear would rotate freely in one direction, like in the video, but wouldn't move freely in the other direction—like in the video—because the sprags would grip the freewheel gear which rotates the auxiliary gear meshed with the crankshaft gear. The gear in the video can't be moved further because a screwdriver shank does not have enough leverage to move an entire piston and crankshaft assembly.

The guy in the video was able to fix his by the spray method but it is obvious that yours can only be temporarily fixed by that method. You'll need to try what Point-Seven-five recommends. If that doesn't work, you have run out of luck and you must disassemble the engine to remove the auxiliary shaft then inspect and clean or replace the sprag clutch, Like this guy did.


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 81,000 miles
Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Usa-lo10
    

18Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:25 pm

Danish biker

Danish biker
Platinum member
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J
Laitch wrote:
Danish biker wrote:. . . I just need to find the person who has gone through this and actually found the reason for the problem (and can explain it to a Amateure like me).
 Like this guy did.
First of all thank you soooooo much for writing so it was much more easy to understand your post then in your previous post. I really appreciate that.

Your link is highly appreciated however I’m not there (in my mind) yet.

So would you recommend taking out 1 liter of oil and putting in 1 liter of petroleum (you call it something else) and run the bike worm, and then drain all oil. 

Or maybe use a engine cleaner and do the same (been there done that, got the t-shirt on my old engine). Any way I’m ready to ride naked in frost through all Europe if I thought it would help.


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

19Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:50 pm

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
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How many miles does your new engine have on it?  Have you pulled off the valve cover to see what the inside looks like?  Is it very dirty?  

What year is your new engine.  I recall that the earlier engines had a slightly different design of the sprag.  That design seemed to have more problems and it was improved in later models.  If you have that sprag, it may be desirable to change it.  

Right now, I would add a can of engine cleaner to the oil and run the engine for an hour or so.  Before you start the engine, clean the sprag by spraying it with non-flammable Brake Cleaner.  That will not blow up your motor and clean out any thing that is in the sprag.  

After running the engine spray the sprag again with the brake cleaner and then drain the oil and brake cleaner while it is still hot.    Change the filter and refill with a good oil for diesel trucks.  If the problem was dirt in the sprag it should now be corrected.  If you continue to have sprag problems after this, it is probably worn and I'm afraid you will have to disassemble the engine and replace the sprag.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS


Past:
1988 K100RS SE
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

20Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:55 pm

Laitch

Laitch
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Danish biker wrote:So would you recommend taking out 1 liter of oil and putting in 1 liter of petroleum (you call it something else) and run the bike worm, and then drain all oil. 
I would recommend that you remove the auxiliary housing and replace the sprag clutch as was done in that thread to which I linked you in my last post. Somebody else can recommend additives to the crankcase oil that might help this defect in the short term.

I've got firewood to stack. Smile


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 81,000 miles
Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Usa-lo10
    

21Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Sprag Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:44 pm

daveyson

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Your problem is simple, the clutch is not engaging. Nobody knows why yet, because nobody has looked at it yet. 

Here's a couple of desperate ideas which might mean you don't have to open up the engine. If the diesel oil doesn't fix the problem, I'd try a plain Dino oil, hopefully without friction reducing additives.

I don't know if your current engine had the oil with the N-Tech additives. We never did find out if that meant nano technology. Some of the suppliers bragged that nano additives remained in the engine even after say ten oil changes with conventional oil. I would contact the oil company and ask if it has nano additives. Explain your unusual situation, with a sprag clutch inside the engine, and ask how you can remove it.

I used to put half a litre of diesel in my cars engine oil and leave it idle for five or ten minutes, before an oil change, to clean out the crap. That might just kill two birds with one stone.


__________________________________________________
11/1985 bmw k100rt (late model)  Vin. 0090567
 ~120,000 km
    

22Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:45 pm

Rick G

Rick G
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Danish biker wrote:What’s the probability of me getting stuck with exact same problems in two different engines. 
Very high,it is a common problem that is becoming more common and both engines are probably around 30 years old.


__________________________________________________
"Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.
And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived."   Dalai Lama


Bikes 2004 K1200GT 1998 K1100 LT, 1986 K75 GS.
    

23Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:16 pm

Laitch

Laitch
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Danish biker wrote:
Laitch

One last point: when the direction clockwise is indicated, it is only helpful if you describe from which direction you are looking at the clock—the front of the engine or the rear of the engine. 

ALWAYS state direction, when it concerns a motorcycle, from when you are sitting on it. Very Happy

I’m looking from the rear (only way I can look into the hole, where the starter goes into  Very Happy ), but the point should be: “It’s only supposed to move one way, NOT both directions!”  Cool
You might "always state the direction, when it concerns a motorcyle, from when you are sitting on it" but the rest of the world might not think the way you do. Take for example this description of crankshaft rotation taken from the BMW K100/K75 2V shop manual. They aren't looking at the ignition system through the swing arm, transmisssion and engine case with x-ray vision, they are looking at the front of the engine where the Hall Effect sensor component of the ignition system resides.

Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Scree144
So when you are asking for help, be as clear as you can and don't assume people think like you do because, in this case at least, if they thought like you, they would be asking for help too.  Laughing  That is why I asked which direction you were facing when describing clock rotation. I don't need to figure out things by looking through a starter mount peephole to understand what is happening when I have a fairly complete component diagram for reference. That's why I posted the diagram for you to view.

You'll likely solve this problem one way or the other because you are persistent. Good luck. Don't get frostbitten in your T-shirt while riding. cheers


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 81,000 miles
Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Usa-lo10
    

24Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Sprag Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:21 am

daveyson

daveyson
Life time member
Life time member
Two birds with one stone (to fluer med et smaek) 

If you keep using low friction oils, I think you will keep having this friction problem with the clutch.

Your idea of riding naked through Europe sounds good, you may get many benefits from it, give it a try and report back to us. In the meantime, park on hills, if you can find one in North Jutland. 

What do you mean by the engine blew up at 170km/h? What happened and why?


__________________________________________________
11/1985 bmw k100rt (late model)  Vin. 0090567
 ~120,000 km
    

25Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:41 am

Danish biker

Danish biker
Platinum member
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Point-Seven-five wrote:How many miles does your new engine have on it?  Have you pulled off the valve cover to see what the inside looks like?  Is it very dirty?  

What year is your new engine.  I recall that the earlier engines had a slightly different design of the sprag.  That design seemed to have more problems and it was improved in later models.  If you have that sprag, it may be desirable to change it.  

Right now, I would add a can of engine cleaner to the oil and run the engine for an hour or so.  Before you start the engine, clean the sprag by spraying it with non-flammable Brake Cleaner.  That will not blow up your motor and clean out any thing that is in the sprag.  

After running the engine spray the sprag again with the brake cleaner and then drain the oil and brake cleaner while it is still hot.    Change the filter and refill with a good oil for diesel trucks.  If the problem was dirt in the sprag it should now be corrected.  If you continue to have sprag problems after this, it is probably worn and I'm afraid you will have to disassemble the engine and replace the sprag.

Next time (and I know there will be a next time Crying or Very sad I will follow your advice).

When you write “spray the sprang” I’m guessing you mean “spray brake cleaner through the 3 small holes in the axel on the gear in the absolut rear of the engine??

The new engine is at fare as I remember also a 92, may e 93. It has 104.000 km on the clock when installed.

Nope I’ve not had the valve cover off. Maybe I should but I’m a bit unsure what to look for (I understand I’m looking for dirt, but haven’t spend much time inside engines).


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

26Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:48 am

Danish biker

Danish biker
Platinum member
Platinum member
Laitch wrote:


I would recommend that you remove the auxiliary housing and replace the sprag clutch as was done in that thread to which I linked you in my last post. Somebody else can recommend additives to the crankcase oil that might help this defect in the short term

I've got firewood to stack. Smile
 I already stacked mine  Cool

Yes that could end up in being a winter project. But I was seriously stressed when “only” having to change an engine. I haven’t spend much time inside an engine so I’m not sure I’m “up for that”.


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

27Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:51 am

Danish biker

Danish biker
Platinum member
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daveyson wrote:
I used to put half a litre of diesel in my cars engine oil and leave it idle for five or ten minutes, before an oil change, to clean out the crap. That might just kill two birds with one stone.

Some say I should put in 1 l (first take out 1 l of oil) of kerosine (petroleum) and do what you suggest???


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

28Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:53 am

Danish biker

Danish biker
Platinum member
Platinum member
RicK G wrote:

Very high,it is a common problem that is becoming more common and both engines are probably around 30 years old.

Then I would probably be cheaper for me to buy a German Brick with low km and import it and take the engine from it and put on my frame.


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

29Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:01 pm

Danish biker

Danish biker
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Laitch wrote:
So when you are asking for help, be as clear as you can and don't assume people think like you do because, in this case at least, if they thought like you, they would be asking for help too.  Laughing 

Very Happy Very Happy Still it is only supposed to move one way so which way was actually not that vital. Secondary the YouTube film clearly shows what direction anti clockwise is, in this case. 

If I can start I’ll ride in only a t-shirt Cool


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

30Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:14 pm

Danish biker

Danish biker
Platinum member
Platinum member
M
daveyson wrote:What do you mean by the engine blew up at 170km/h? What happened and why?

Long time no hear mate Cool

I thought you would never ask.

I did the WD40 job but after advice from places like this, I used carburetor cleaner (apparently it is flammable). Seems like i didn’t get it all out (or that is my best guess).

I took a looooong ride and ended on the freeway and while passing a car with 170 km the engine made “the sound you don’t like to hear”.

I waved showing the car, I was passing, that I had to cross in front of him to get to the emergency lane. Then the engine made an exploding sounds and flames came up in my face (I had naturally hit the clutch so I could free ride).

I could see an exit (the sign) 1 km ahead (wanted to role as fare as possible). 

When the flames was gone (pretty quick), smoke was flying behind me.

I made it 200 meters past the “500 meter exit sign”.

Got off the bike (and filmed the engine Smile).

Pushed the bike 300 meter in the emergency lane. Then 200 meters up the ramp. Then 2 km to my friends house.

What a day.

Wish I could post pictures here.


daveyson


If you keep using low friction oils, I think you will keep having this friction problem with the clutch.


I need to figure out what the h... low friction oil is.



Last edited by Danish biker on Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:34 pm; edited 8 times in total


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

31Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:25 pm

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
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Danish biker wrote:I did the WD40 job but after advice from places like this, I used carburetor cleaner (apparently it is flammable).
Why are you coming back for more advice? Are you trying to blow up your replacement engine, too? Does this have something to do with liking the sound of explosive ordnance? Are you in the DA?  Smile


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 81,000 miles
Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Usa-lo10
    

32Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:37 pm

Danish biker

Danish biker
Platinum member
Platinum member
Laitch wrote:
Why are you coming back for more advice? Are you trying to blow up your replacement engine, too? Does this have something to do with liking the sound of explosive ordnance? Are you in the DA?  Smile

Pushing 40 years when we pass November this year. I’m proud to say I’ve blown up shit in places like Iraq, x-Yugoslavia etc. and with great pleasure (and received medals and crap for it). Twisted Evil

I put up the part of my engine (don’t know what it is called in English) that was shot out through the camshaft cover, hitting the fearing side, falling down on the “snowplow” (what we Danes call the bottom of the fearing) and almost burned through on a very fine plate of wood. Now hanging on the wall like a medal.

PS the camshaft cover, with the hole, is on the wall in my garage.

PPS considering taking the rest of the exploded engine apart and see for myself, where the f... the sprang clutch is placed, what it does etc. but no time, have to go blow something up Cool


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

33Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:53 pm

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
As we say in English, Go have a blast! cheers


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 81,000 miles
Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Usa-lo10
    

34Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:00 pm

Danish biker

Danish biker
Platinum member
Platinum member
Laitch wrote:As we say in English, Go have a blast! cheers

I wish I could post pictures on this forum Smile


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

35Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:39 pm

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
Life time member
Your engines have the improved sprag. Also, with the km your engine has, the sprag should not be a problem unless the oil has been neglected. Removing the valve cover and looking at the inside will give you an idea of how the engine has been maintained. What you want to see in there is a bunch of clean engine parts with a film of oil on them. Any black crusty stuff in there indicates that the oil has not been changed at appropriate intervals.

Non-flammable brake cleaner will clean out the sprag without blowing up the engine. It is a great cleaner for almost everything in the engine and drive train. Don't use it on faiirng and other body parts, though, it will damage the paint if you get too much on them.

I would suggest removing the crankshaft cover and spraying the brake cleaner from inside the engine. The video in a post above shows it being done. Removing a liter of oil and replacing it with kerosene will work for cleaning the engine. Just don't run it too long, and be sure to change the filter when you change the oil.

Refill with regular motor oil made for diesel trucks and run it for a couple thousand km and do another oil aand filter change. This time refill with regular 20W50 oil. You should be okay by then. Of course, if you find a lot of black stuff under the valve cover, you may have more flushing before the sprag is reliable.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS


Past:
1988 K100RS SE
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

36Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:03 pm

Danish biker

Danish biker
Platinum member
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Point-Seven-five wrote:Your engines have the improved sprag.  Also, with the km your engine has, the sprag should not be a problem unless the oil has been neglected.  Removing the valve cover and looking at the inside will give you an idea of how the engine has been maintained.  What you want to see in there is a bunch of clean engine parts with a film of oil on them.  Any black crusty stuff in there indicates that the oil has not been changed at appropriate intervals.

Non-flammable brake cleaner will clean out the sprag without blowing up the engine.  It is a great cleaner for almost everything in the engine and drive train.  Don't use it on faiirng and other body parts, though, it will damage the paint if you get too much on them.

I would suggest removing the crankshaft cover and spraying the brake cleaner from inside the engine.  The video in a post above shows it being done.  Removing a liter of oil and replacing it with kerosene will work for cleaning the engine.  Just don't run it too long, and be sure to change the filter when you change the oil.

Refill with regular motor oil made for diesel trucks and run it for a couple thousand km and do another oil aand filter change.  This time refill with regular 20W50 oil.  You should be okay by then.  Of course, if you find a lot of black stuff under the valve cover, you may have more flushing before the sprag is reliable.

Thanks a million I’m “bookmarking” this tread. 

But you must realize there are many things I need to figure out.

1. What is a diesel truck oil. Here a truck is a pick-up not a “Lorry”. 

2. Where do I find the valve cover? I know I can figure this out pretty easy, but still it is not common knowledge to me. With this in mind you get an idea of I won’t really be able to determine what a “film of oil” is.


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

37Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:24 pm

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
Life time member
Okay, I get it, Diesel Lorry oil. It is a heavy duty oil, here in the U.S. there are different grades for some of these oils. One grade is for diesel automobiles, and another is for heavy duty use in lorries and large earth moving machines. If there is a difference in Denmark, that is the oil you want to use. It has more detergent in it to handle the combustion by-products in the larger engines. it usually comes in 15W40.

The valve cover is on the left side of the engine. It covers the cam shafts and the intake and exhaust valves. It surrounds the area where the spark plugs are located. It's held in place by screws that go through rubber bushings.

The cams and valves under the cover are lubricated by the engine oil so there will be some oil behind it. This oil coats the parts. If it has been neglected, it turns into a black tar that coats everything. otherwise it will just coat them with a thin layer of liquid.




__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS


Past:
1988 K100RS SE
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

38Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:27 pm

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
This is a truck that uses diesel engine oil. Smile
Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Magi1110


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 81,000 miles
Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Usa-lo10
    

39Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:37 pm

Danish biker

Danish biker
Platinum member
Platinum member
Point-Seven-five wrote:The valve cover is on the left side of the engine.

You are on thin ice brother. Laitch will crucify you for that remark (Sorry Danish humor):

Laitch

One last point: when the direction clockwise is indicated, it is only helpful if you describe from which direction you are looking at the clock—the front of the engine or the rear of the engine. 

I think I will start by removing the valve cover on my old exploded engine and get some experience that won’t mess with my “sometimes working engine”. Just like looking for the sprang clutch on the ruined engine.

Thanks for clarifying in a very understandable way. Appreciate it VERY much.


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

40Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:41 pm

Danish biker

Danish biker
Platinum member
Platinum member
Laitch wrote:This is a truck that uses diesel engine oil. Smile
Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Magi1110

Probably go to the motor pole tomorrow morning and see the garage chief Cool


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

41Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:55 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

avatar
Life time member
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Point-Seven-five wrote:Okay, I get it, Diesel Lorry oil.  It is a heavy duty oil, here in the U.S. there are different grades for some of these oils.  One grade is for diesel automobiles, and another is for heavy duty use in lorries and large earth moving machines.  If there is a difference in Denmark, that is the oil you want to use.  It has more detergent in it to handle the combustion by-products in the larger engines.  it usually comes in 15W40.

The valve cover is on the left side of the engine.  It covers the cam shafts and the intake and exhaust valves.  It surrounds the area where the spark plugs are located.  It's held in place by screws that go through rubber bushings.

The cams and valves under the cover are lubricated by the engine oil so there will be some oil behind it.  This oil coats the parts.  If it has been neglected, it turns into a black tar that coats everything.  otherwise it will just coat them with a thin layer of liquid.



Be very careful torqueing up the valve cover bolts. One of the bolts goes into a camshaft bearing cap and its easy to strip or damage the cap. You can't replace the cap, its line bored.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011171 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 49,840 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 42,640 miles.

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

42Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:18 pm

gorio

gorio
Silver member
Silver member
After reading some of this thread I think it needs to be plainly said.

Running an engine with any oil additive or cleaning product in it that is flammable or that will affect the lubricating properties of the engine oil is just a bad idea and should not be done.

Please be careful!


__________________________________________________
1992 K100rs 16v
1997 R1100rt
2006 R1200rt
Past lives
Kawasaki Concours
1976 BMW R90s
1975 Ducati 860gt
1992 Honda VFR750
1985 Honda VF750
1982 Kawasaki 750GPZ
1975 Norton 850 Commando
    

43Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Sprag Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:25 pm

daveyson

daveyson
Life time member
Life time member
I'd love to see the photos, maybe you could put the video on YouTube, we could see it there. 

For photos press the blue icon on the far left of the YouTube icon,  at the top of your page.  Then the select button to choose your photo. Then the button with an up arrow. Then the button with a funny circle. Then press the send button.

If that cam cover was mine, I'd mount it on a fancy wooden shield and hang it on the wall above the TV. And another shield for the part that popped through it.

What is the Danish name of the part that blew out the engine?


__________________________________________________
11/1985 bmw k100rt (late model)  Vin. 0090567
 ~120,000 km
    

44Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:26 pm

Danish biker

Danish biker
Platinum member
Platinum member
daveyson wrote:
What is the Danish name of the part that blew out the engine?

plejlstang

Just mail me I’ll send pictures (they are on a K1100 RS Facebook group) 

barkan@mail.dk

Or even better look me up on Facebook (Barkan Christensen)


__________________________________________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Sir Winston Churchill
    

45Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:36 pm

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
Life time member
Do you think there is a chance you will be flushing your sprag?


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS


Past:
1988 K100RS SE
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

46Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Sprag Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:03 pm

daveyson

daveyson
Life time member
Life time member
Righto, when I next get to a computer.

Plejlstang = conrod. I'll spose it blew out the right hand side of the engine. I'll have a wild guess it was from cylinder 4, the rear most cylinder.


__________________________________________________
11/1985 bmw k100rt (late model)  Vin. 0090567
 ~120,000 km
    

47Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:27 pm

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
Life time member
"Plejlstang = conrod. I'll spose it blew out the right hand side of the engine. I'll have a wild guess it was from cylinder 4, the rear most cylinder."

It might have blown out the left side of the engine if he was in Vermont.  It's so much easier with conventional engines where the rods just come out the bottom.

So, you blew up the engine by throwing a connecting rod at 170kph...

170kph = ~7700rpm

I'm doubtful the carb cleaner exploding put your rod out through the case.  Cleaning the sprag with solvent is a diagnostic tactic to get the engine started so that it can be warmed up with some cleaner in the oil to allow the crap in the engine to be drained with the oil.  I would never put a non-lubricating solvent in the oil and then see how fast I can go.  That is a recipe for seizing the engine, which is something I am sure you have learned.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS


Past:
1988 K100RS SE
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

48Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:39 pm

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
Point-Seven-five wrote:It might have blown out the left side of the engine if he was in Vermont. 
In Vermont, all blowouts are toward the right; all turns are left.  Smile


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 81,000 miles
Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Usa-lo10
    

49Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:43 pm

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five
Life time member
Life time member
Laitch, that's good to know.


__________________________________________________
Present:
1994 K75RT
1991 K100RS


Past:
1988 K100RS SE
1994 BMW K75S
1992 BMW K100RS
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

50Back to top Go down   Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Empty Re: Starter or Sprag clutch failure Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:46 pm

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
That's why I recommended riding Route 100. Cool


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 81,000 miles
Starter or Sprag clutch failure  Usa-lo10
    

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